43 réponses à ce sujet

[Centra28]

What is the difference between the two besides spell preparation?  I was reading up on the wiki, but I couldn't really tell a difference besides that.   Are they both just as capable in regards to physical combat?

[painofdungeoneternal]

Favored souls are less versatile, and get better combat feats by default. Their spell casting makes them comparable to clerics much like sorcerors to wizards.

Clerics get domains, and thru them some critical wizard spells, and can be tailored to just about any faith. Clerics also get turn undead.

Clerics use wisdom for spells, a favored soul uses both charisma for how many spells, and wisdom for DC. So save or die spells are not going to be something a favored soul is good at, but clerics mostly don't have spells like that which makes it a non isssue. This makes it harder to min/max a favored soul without hurting him in some way, and charisma really needs turn undead to be fully useful. That being said it's not a problem in practice as without those limitations you there would be no purpose to even having clerics.

They are more powerful, if you choose the right spells on level up, most of the spells you need as a cleric you will get as a favored soul. If you dip one level of monk and one level of cleric, then you remove almost all the drawbacks besides some wizard spells coming from the domains.

[Arkalezth]

In short, clerics use WIS and memorize spells, FS uses CHA and cast spontaneusly. Clerics have domains and Turn Undead (you can just multiclass as a FS if you want it).

There are a few more things, but that's the important. Multiclass combinations are a different story. My advice is to pick one or another depending on the casting method you prefer, or if you want some domain bonus that progresses with levels, like an animal companion.

[Centra28]

Thanks for the immediate responses. I do have a few more questions now if you'll indulge me...

What is the value in being able to Turn Undead?

In the wiki it mentioned having a weapon proficiency bonus for your deity's favored weapon. That being the case, does that give it some sort of physical combat advantage over Cleric?

Thanks again, and please bear with me as I am still new to this very dynamic game.

[Centra28]

sorry, double post.

Modifié par Centra28, 28 septembre 2011 - 09:27 .

[Centra28]

painofdungeoneternal wrote...

...So save or die spells are not going to be something a favored soul is good at, but clerics mostly don't have spells like that which makes it a non isssue. ...

What are "save or die spells"?

Modifié par Centra28, 28 septembre 2011 - 09:26 .

[M. Rieder]

Save or die spells require that the target succesfully make a saving throw, usually fortitude, or be killed instantly regardless of how many HP they have.

[painofdungeoneternal]

Turn undead allows you to raise your cross toward the vampire and make him flee, much like in any vampire movie. This applies to any undead, ( and with domains also devils or constructs), and can make them run, paralyze them, or destroy them. You basically get some holy mojo that the undead fear or get disintegrated with, mostly based on your charisma score and level.

This is pretty useless by itself, however it is used to fuel the divine shield, divine might, which give a charisma bonus to AC and damage equal to as many rounds as you have charisma ( or something like that ). That is pretty useful.

[painofdungeoneternal]

In the wiki it mentioned having a weapon proficiency bonus for your deity's favored weapon. That being the case, does that give it some sort of physical combat advantage over Cleric?

Yes, you get feats for free, which normally are things a fighter takes in their primary weapon, you also get haste 3 times per day, and damage reduction. Pretty minor things, but it is designed for a holy warrior. The actual real classs in D&D is supposed to get wings too, so it's like drinking red bull.

[Arkalezth]

Clerics with War domain also get weapon proficiency and focus. They don't get specialization, but that isn't an issue with the cleric spell list.

[Haplose]

Clerics can manage better spell Difficulty Checks (so it's tougher to save against their spells).
Also are more versatile and more flexible in multiclassing. Have nice synergy with Monks to take advantage of that Wisdom for example.
Favoured Souls can cast more spells between rests and have the freedom which spell they know they want to cast on the fly. So I'd say Favoured Souls definately make better healer-types (can spam Heal and such, as needed). Healing Domain, I know... but the spells it affects just don't cut it at higher levels.
For a melee oriented divine caster it's probably a tie. Cleric has the Turn Undead advantage, but it needs a lot of Charisma to fuel it to good use. So it becomes a case of Multi-Attribute Dependency (MAD).Since you need high Str, Cha, Wis. As well as a solid feat investment. A FS can multiclass to Cleric/Paladin/BG to get TU, but his spell progression is already slower then a Cleric's. Also the Cleric has a better armor selection. Nothing a multiclass can't fix, but again you're slowing your spellcasting progression.
Favoured Souls get the weapon focus and specialization for free, as well as the nifty Damage Reduction - eventually, a bit late for my taste, as getting it limits severly you're multiclassing options.

With Kaedrin's PrC pack I'd say the Cleric gets the upper hand as a melee monster with the Holy Warrior feat.

Overall I'd say they are pretty nicely balanced.

Modifié par Haplose, 29 septembre 2011 - 08:34 .

[Arkalezth]

Agreed on just about everything, but just a note:

Haplose wrote...

Favoured Souls can cast more spells between rests and have the freedom which spell they know they want to cast on the fly. So I'd say Favoured Souls definately make better healer-types (can spam Heal and such, as needed). Healing Domain, I know... but the spells it affects just don't cut it at higher levels.

A single cleric level with Healing domain already lets you empower some healing spells, so the best healer would probably be a cleric (Healing domain) 1/ FS x. You would also get Turn Undead, heavy armor, and another domain feat, so it's a simple and effective multiclass.

I know, casting progression would be delayed some more, and those healing spells aren't so effective later, but you don't play at a high level from the start, and they could still be useful with the domain bonus.

[Haplose]

A Favoured Soul who picked healing spells hardly needs that kind of a boost though. I mostly use the slow-healing but efficient party-wide Mass Vigor spells anyway. When I need to heal during combat, the Healing Kits + some Healing skill are better then these low-level spells anyway (and don't cause AOOs). And I would probably never have the slots for such spells on a Cleric, but have no problems casting it on a FS. There is spontaneous conversion for Clerics, but that still requires me to have open slots...

Oh, did I mention FS are superior party buffers as well? Have no problem casting 4x DeathWard, Spell Resistance or Freedom. And other buffs, as needed.

Overall I wouldn't delay my spellcasting progression if I only wanted to grab the healing domain. After all, then it's just 1 level away till I get better spells, including better healing spells. This domain is a poor long-term investment anyway, as it becomes mostly useless after a while. For a Cleric 1 /FS X multiclass I would probably pick some domains that give some good feats, like Evasion, Blind Fight, Toughness, Luck of Heroes, maybe Great Resilience, if that's available.

But the Turn Undead and Heavy Armor combo just might tip the scales to make such a multiclass worthwile. Not in a low-level module, though. And you do loose the DR pre-epic.

[Arkalezth]

Yeah, you have a point there. It depends on where/which levels you'll play it. Just saying that it's a decent option if you're into healing. But there's not much more to add.

Great Resilience doesn't exist as a domain feat AFAIK. Not in the normal game at least. You can get Great Fortitude with Kaedrin's (Dwarf domain), maybe you were thinking of that one.

[Haplose]

Yeah, I ment the added Kaedrin's domains and actually I had Epic Resilience from Pride domain in mind. Together with Greater Heroism spell talk about an OP domain (like Clerics needed more AB buffs)!

Modifié par Haplose, 29 septembre 2011 - 11:04 .

[Shallina]

Favored are the monster divine caster. Cast on the fly the spell you need withthe meta magic you need.
At hight lvl the best heal spell can't be empowered, so in the end favored soul is the king of healer/buffer with good martial power if you buff it, it is also the king when it comme to practical situation since all your spell are always available, no need to reload the game to have memorised that specific spell wich save the day for that particuliar encounter.


So what's left to the cleric, well all those divine power and that turn undead.

Turn undead power is dependent of your turn undead lvl. Basically a fav soul if muticlass to get that spell can only use it for buff.

A cleric can do so much more with it. Like roasting all undead that are at his lvl around him without using a single spell in one turn undead, while the favored soul will have to use somme spells for the same result.

If you are only interested into casting spell, Favored soul is the way to go.

If you wants to do more, Cleric is the way to go. Favored soul is a better caster, but there is so much power that make use of the turn undead ability, that the cleric is still stronger.

Favored sould is a walking casting machine that can melee.

Cleric isn't a walking casting machine but has access to all the divine power at full strenght.

[Haplose]

Shallina wrote...
Favored soul is a better caster, (snip)

If you are only interested into casting spell, Favored soul is the way to go.

I strongly disagree with these statements. While it is true that a FS is the king of buffing and healing, Clerics are capable of achieving spell DCs far beyond what FS can dream of.
And there is so much more to divine magic then healing and buffing. Storm of Vengeance will absolutely wreck your opponents. Implosion will kill them outright. Harm or Mass Harm is nothing to sneeze at either. At mid-levels there is Slay Living. Hammer of the Gods is nice for some divine-based damage, but especially for the stun effect. And finally there are Flame Strike, Firestorm and Sunray. Word of Faith deserves honorable mention as one of the best divine offensive spells, but this spell will actually work well for Favoured Souls as well, since it's not save based.

All of those spells (except WoF) will in most cases be much weaker in the hands of a FS, then they are for a Cleric (as they usually want at least 19-20 Wisdom, many builds want that base) . Not to mention a Wisdom-focused Cleric (perhaps a Monk Zen Archer multiclass). A 43 DC Implosion? Yes, please.

Turn undead power is dependent of your turn undead lvl. Basically a fav soul if muticlass to get that spell can only use it for buff.

A cleric can do so much more with it. Like roasting all undead that are at his lvl around him without using a single spell in one turn undead, while the favored soul will have to use somme spells for the same result.

That's mostly irrelevant though, since for most builds the best use for Turn Undead will be to fuel Divine Might and Divine Shield. And these feats don't take class level into consideration, only Charisma level (and Strenght, if you consider Epic levels and getting the Epic Divine Might feat). Those Cleric builds which don't strive to have high Charisma will have sucky TU effects anyway. Unless you're fighting Undead many levels weaker then you. But then a buffed Cleric or FS will dispose of them almost as fast.

Modifié par Haplose, 29 septembre 2011 - 11:58 .

[Centra28]

Thanks for the discussion all. A lot of good info to digest. I gather from all of this that Cleric seems to be the favored choice. Mostly because of the use of Wisdom, Divine spells, and Turn Undead I gather. Let me know if that is off? I guess the added physical combat feats you gain from FS is not enough to make up for the advantages previously listed?

how does a Cleric compare to a Paladin? I'm going to do some research on this next...

[Arkalezth]

Both cleric and FS are clearly better than paladin, which doesn't gain much after the few initial levels.

As for cleric vs FS, I stand by my original suggestion: pick one depending on what you prefer, having and memorizing all spells, or having a few and cast them on the fly. Also, if you're going to use offensive spells or want some exclusive domain bonus, such as an animal companion.

As explained, Turn Undead is only good if you have a high CHA, which clerics usually don't have. FS are the opposite, they have the CHA, but not the ability. Multiclassing can solve that, though.

[The Fred]

M. Rieder wrote...
Save or die spells require that the target succesfully make a saving throw, usually fortitude, or be killed instantly regardless of how many HP they have.

Just a note, whilst this is the literal definition of "save-or-die", the term is sometimes used somewhat loosely (and arguably incorrectly) to mean and spell or effect which has any very strong negative effect if you fail your save (such as petrification, long-duration disable, etc, usually something which is likely to result in death indirectly) and tends to have little or no effect on a successful save.

Shallina wrote...
Favored are the monster divine caster.
...
If you are only interested into casting spell, Favored soul is the way to go...

I'm not 100% with this. I think the way Pain put it in the first replay was right - Favoured Souls are to Clerics what Sorcerers are to Wizards, more or less. They may cast more spells, but the power level is one level behind (gaining 2nd-level spells only at 4th level, etc). In addition, they use Cha for casting but Wis for DCs, so if you want to cast any DC spells you will need to split your attributes, giving you worse benefits than a Cleric with only Wis. A Cleric by comparison can be a powerful melee character AND a full caster.

Shallina wrote...
Cleric isn't a walking casting machine but has access to all the divine power at full strenght
...
So what's left to the cleric, well all those divine power and that turn undead.

The Cleric is a full spellcaster. I don't know what your definition of "walking casting machine" is but I think anyone who can a) walk and cast spells (and at full progression) counts. Possibly you also have to be a golem, but then Favoured Souls fail.

IMO, Turn Undead is so-so. You are only going to be able to clear weak undead with it, so it's nice for a few encounters here and there where you might otherwise have to waste some AoE spells. However, it's never going to be able to kill anything that's actually a challenge, at least not without some investment. Also, it's very situational based on there actually being undead about. This is why most people use the Divine feats. However, whilst these are good, the Cleric gets plenty of other benefits such as Domains (two potent benefits, essentially two free feats or better, and potential access to spells not necessarily on the Cleric/FS list). It also doesn't have the same MAD - a Cleric could ditch Cha and Turn Undead/Divine feats and still have full spellcasting.

I agree with you that Favoured Souls are potentially very powerful, but I don't think it's as cut-and-dried as you made out. If I wanted to focus on casting, I'd hate to get my higher-level spells later.

Centra28 wrote...
how does a Cleric compare to a Paladin? I'm going to do some research on this next...

The Paladin is a melee fighter. It's like an actual Fighter with a Clerical splash. You can't really think of it as a caster at all, since its spells are more of a bonus.
A pure Paladin in NWN2 is not really that amazing. I think people will often at least dip Fighter for some bonus feats. You do get some nice class abilities, though, like immunities to fear and disease, amongst other things. With Divine Feats and Smiting I think you could be quite capable.

[Centra28]

Thanks for the summary, The Fred, sums the thread up nicely. I keep seeing mention of domains, but I'm not 100% certain on what people are refering to here. Is that the deity of choice? if that's the case, does each deity have it's own spell/ability list?

[Arkalezth]

http://nwn2.wikia.com/wiki/Domain

[Centra28]

thanks

[Centra28]

wow, that makes it even harder for me to make a character lol. There are a lot of options. As a Cleric, should I just choose the Warpriest path to unlock the Prestige class? Is it better to become a Warpriest than a hight level Cleric whatever?

[The Fred]

Warpriests lose casting levels compared with most Clerics. Since a lot of people will just use Divine Power (the 4th-level spell) to become an awesome fighter, albeit for a limited duration, it's actually kind of counter-intuitive to become a Warpriest, since though your base melee power increases, your spellcasting power drops which means your buffs (like Divine Power) get weaker. I actually like the class, but it's not a powerhouse by any means.

The Stormlord PrC is a lot more powerful, but quite restrictive. You basically have to use a spear (or throwing weapons), you have to follow Talos, and I think that means you even have to be evil, or at least non-good or something.

Sacred Fist is another option, but you pretty much have to stay unarmed then. You'll probably also need to take a couple of Monk levels, which will deliver a (small) hit to your spellcasting.

A pure Cleric is not necessarily the most optimised choice, but it's a very solid option.

As for domains, the easiest way to think of them is as two bonus feats. Those benefits (e.g. Luck, Blind-Fight, Evasion, Weapon Proficiency & Focus) tend to be more important than the bonus spells you get, though the latter aren't to be sniffed at - for a pure casting Cleric, something like the Magic domain is pretty potent. Note that you can take a single level of Cleric just for the domains, but then you have multiclassing issues.