77 réponses à ce sujet

[Lightfoot8]

So
Party size 1 = 100%
Party size 2 = 80%
Party size 3 = 66%
Party size 4 = 57%
Party size 5+ = 50%

making our full xp formula 10* 2da *Slider * -Penatilty * 4/(3+PartySize)

Cool, Thanks for the information.

[FunkySwerve]

Lightfoot8 wrote...

You either missed entirely what I was criticizing Or you did not read your own post.   Let me recap.  

No, I read exactly what you were criticizing. You completely mischaracterized my remarks in this thread, claiming I was advocating only one way of doing this, instead of a weighing of alternatives. In so doing, you demonstrated that YOU had not read what I had written, as I already pointed out in my last post. I see you make no mention of that at all in this post. Instead of admitting your mistake, you've apparently decided to double down on it.

It sounds to me that you are posting the code to prove that shadow is wrong.   No I am not saying that shadow is right, Mainly just because I dissagree with his use of words like "Lame" ect.   If he would replace them with frases like "Is not allways the best method". I do not think any of us would dissagree with his posts.  

Very perceptive of you. More specifically, I was pointing out that delevling, despite lacking a certain polish, was certainly NOT a indication of laziness of lack or skill, as Shad claimed.  And the code I posted demonstrated that quite clearly. There were many other ways Acaos could have done that - he's written many plugins for less. The simple fact is he didn't because it was expedient, and because inconvenience to the player is minimal. I know this because we discussed it. The view that such methods are indicative of a lack of skill is patently absurd, and I don't think anyone of reasonable mind would agree with it, no matter how it was phrased.

But since your posted code by acaos could not even be done by the method he was talking about, It proved nothing about how he would have handled the case of  restriction based on class.

Actually, it proved exactly what I offered it to prove - that a builder of skill still uses delevels - it simply isn't a question of lack of skill.

  There is also no time line as to when he wrote the code.   If it was written before the first patch,  and it matched exactly the case at hand, It still proves nothing because the method being discused was not avaliable at the time.   Third Even if the case matched, We have no Idea what constraints acros was writting under, was it for a mod without haks? , Did he know about the other options at the time he wrote it?  Did other factors like having to delevel due to lore restrictions,  sway him to just do everything with delevling?  Is it just a safty check incase one of the class restriction vars slipped by not being set correctly? 

In short,  posting code someone else wrote is hearsay and proves  nothing.

Nothing here is hearsay - you don't understand the term. I wasn't posting in a court of law, you see, just making a simple point, which you're attempting to pretzel now, presumably out of ire for my having pointed out your flawed critique of my post. Given that code doesn't come signed, dated, and notarized, you'll just have to take my word for the rest, though I'd think simple logic would allow you to arrive at the same conclusion, given that you agreed with me about weighing alternatives until this latest trainwreck of a post.

Since you seem to have trouble apprehending this very simple point, I'll spell it out in small words. You're correct that my example does not show that a skilled builder is willing to use delevels for the purpose of class restrictions. That isn't relevant to this discussion, however, since I was not offering it to show that - I was, rather, offering it to show that a skilled builder is willing to use delevels in general. I could have just as easily pointed to myself as acoas, though it seemed immodest to do so. I have the top 2 ranked scripts in the vault, and the top-ranked pw. I'm pretty sure I qualify as a 'skilled builder', and I'm willing to use them. So please cut the nonsensical wordsurgery.

Either way, I've no more time to waste on your nonsense. Please refrain from cluttering this thread further unless you intend to actually help the OP - crazy concept, I know.

Funky

Modifié par FunkySwerve, 03 octobre 2011 - 03:48 .

[FunkySwerve]

Lightfoot8 wrote...


Funkys posted script is just way to simplistic.   For one it would force the PC to take 3 classes without the checks that Faild Bard pointed out. It also does not handle the Pres classes the way you wanted them. 

This is ironic, coming from the guy who earlier himself said it depended on what the OP wants - which is precisely what I said. I was explicity offering the very simplest possibility, as you'll see if you trouble yourself to read my post. Yes, it would need more checks - and I specifically pointed out one fairly seroius problem with it, but until I know specifically what he wants, there's no point in adding them. It's likely some kind of persistence is called for, in order to store the last level configuration, for example, but that might also be overkill for what he's trying to do.

Funky

Modifié par FunkySwerve, 03 octobre 2011 - 03:15 .

[SuperFly_2000]

Woo, popular topic...

Thanks all who came up with ready to go solutions to theese fairly easy restrictions.

Again - my last version is: thoose taking prestige classes have only the two maximum classes restriction. All other have that restriction and ALSO a lesser class minumum level restriction of at least 1/3 of the total levels in that class.) 

I will dig deeper into the how-to's when I get that far. At least now I know its doable.

KMdS wrote...
Quick question as to why the need to limit or restrict the various levels/classes a player has. Is the actual need due to some undesired benefit players exploit.

This is not the thread for it rreally but I will comment a bit.

I can't really call it an exploit as the game is supposed to have some builds stronger than other but I think too much energy is being used on making the most uber build. I know that this is a drug for most NWN players but I want to restrict this...and actually make it EASIER to play the game. Now you don't have to concentrate what uber strange combination to use or in worst case use any of the ready made ones.

I don't want 1/3 of the players on the server to be bard/RDD, another third weaponmaster and then the shadowdancer. Kind of sick of it actually and also think that theese classes quickly get overpowered....which is why everyone is using them.

For once I'd like to see a pure bard for example.

I have seen some attempts at balancing by giving the less good options more power but in the end it all results all ending up in more in power in total...while what I am trying to do is to have a fairly low magic and low XP world. Still not going too far away from standard/vanilla NWN.

I have seen a similar system in use on a server (Genesis Nordock, a long time ago) and it worked pretty well....until it was removed. Tis funny cause the server was going more into roleplaying when that decision was made. Guess they couldn't roleplay without their uber builds...

On that server it worked so that whenever you walked out the starting area it checked so that you had the correct levels...and also you couldn't choose too much levels in only one class (don't remember about the prestige classes as I always play pure classes hehe....).

I don't know exactly why I want to do this. I think the main reasons are to decrease the "power diversity between different build choices" (making the choices less important - cause this is not what the game is about) and to decrease and better balance power altogether.

Modifié par SuperFly_2000, 03 octobre 2011 - 11:22 .

[Failed.Bard]

  You can get quite diverse in what you check for within the scripted system, and some restrictions you can only handle through scripting.

  As an example, I allow wizards and sorcerers to become shifters, which by PnP rules they can, but the default system can't check if they know the polymorph self spell before allowing the level up.  So, if they have only one level in shifter, and < 5 levels in druid, then it does the GetHasSpell check and delevels them if it fails.

  Most any sort of "scripted" condition can be set on it.  As long as they make sense within the setting being played in, most players will either accept them, or at least put up with them.  It's still best if you can create a few more options at the same time to balance out the restrictions though.

[Shadooow]

Ehm SuperFly_2000 if I may tell my opinion, then you are going in wrong direction. Basically powergamers will just find out new best builds and starts to make them, the only one hurt will be regular player which will make 6wizard char and then realize "now it could be a good thing to become fighter as it would fit my RP" and thanks to your balance change he wont be able to do that.

There is no way to ged rid of powergames as someone can play "to be the most powerfull bad guy", "to be the richest" etc. So even if you make your game easy and you get rid of majority powergamers for which it wont be challenging, some could if the module you make will have a success play to achieve other goals.

Also, you havent even started modding and first what you are solving are builds limitations and balance changes. You dont know yet how challenging it will be, how many and what players gonna play it etc and this all matters...

Im not even sure I understand your new conditionals, but if you are going to disable triple class for prestige-multiclassed charactes I would predict that monk clerics will show up. Also some classes like wizards/sorcerrers/clerics wont even notice such restriction while others will have even harder times.

[KMdS]

What ShaDoOoW said notwithstanding, There ARE ways of doing what you want. What you need to do is put in some time deciding how YOU want to handle things. Think of specific goals across the board and then think of how each class would be affected. From that point, specifics can be worked out. Don't forget to plan a theme for the server that will keep your players interested, at least the type you want on your server. Though there are players that strictly want to uberbuild a pc, there are those that are more interested in the theme. This thread is yours, you asked for help, do what you want. There are those that will think that you are only wasting your time, what the heck, it's your time, do with it what you want. I can and have created many systems and can help with anything you would like to do...KMdS

[Lightfoot8]

Corrected a bug in the last script I posted.

I had:
SetXP(oPC,nHD * (nHD - 1) / 500 - 1);
It should have been:
SetXP(oPC,nHD * (nHD - 1) * 500 - 1);

[FunkySwerve]

SuperFly_2000 wrote...

Woo, popular topic...

Thanks all who came up with ready to go solutions to theese fairly easy restrictions.

Again - my last version is: thoose taking prestige classes have only the two maximum classes restriction. All other have that restriction and ALSO a lesser class minumum level restriction of at least 1/3 of the total levels in that class.) 

Are you planning to code it yourself, then, or do you need further assistance?

As an aside, I agree with what Shad said about whether, not how, to do this - broad restrictions like this tend to curtail more than the behavior you're seeking to prevent. It's sort of akin to using a sledgehammer instead of a chisel. We've done a ton of class edits on HG, but in a more targeted way. Dislike the pally splash for cha saves boost? Move the feat granting it from 1st level pally to 3rd, or 5th, or whatever you deem appropriate. You can do that with nwnx funcs without a boot, or any player interaction - just remove it if they're less than xth level pally, and readd on the appropriate levelup if they are >= xth level pally. Ditto the SD ability, monk attributes, pally disease immunity, and so on. In short, instead of blocking such combinations, balance them. Of course, that entails a little more work, and doesn't really bear on your question.

Funky

[Lightfoot8]

FunkySwerve wrote...

SuperFly_2000 wrote...

Woo, popular topic...

Thanks all who came up with ready to go solutions to theese fairly easy restrictions.

Again - my last version is: thoose taking prestige classes have only the two maximum classes restriction. All other have that restriction and ALSO a lesser class minumum level restriction of at least 1/3 of the total levels in that class.) 

Are you planning to code it yourself, then, or do you need further assistance?

Funky

??
The script was already posted.  Unless of cource you see a problem with my solution?   I have ran limited tests on it.  The only bug I seen was the XP correction i posted above.

Modifié par Lightfoot8, 04 octobre 2011 - 11:53 .

[ffbj]

So another approach would be just to penalize the player by giving them an xp penalty for every class other than their original class. Not that this would be preferable to other methods just maybe simpler, and possibly more difficult to exploit. Maybe with an additional xp penalty for any prestige class. More along the line of the original D&D where different classes advanced at different rates, but here any multi-classing effort causes a minus % to xp gain.

[FunkySwerve]

Lightfoot8 wrote...

The script was already posted.  Unless of cource you see a problem with my solution?   I have ran limited tests on it.  The only bug I seen was the XP correction i posted above.

I just want to make sure he got the script he wanted, despite the rest of the thread's nonsense. I didn't even look at your script.

Funky

[SuperFly_2000]

Lightfoot,
I just saw your whole script now also. The parts that I understand seem to do exactly what I wanted. Thanks a lot! You've saved me again :-)

Now I just have to build this PW...

Modifié par SuperFly_2000, 05 octobre 2011 - 07:46 .

[SuperFly_2000]

Thanks to everyone else also for your thoughts and ideas.

Now commenting some more on the philosophical side of this.

ShaDoOoW wrote...
Ehm SuperFly_2000 if I may tell my opinion, then you are going in wrong direction. Basically powergamers will just find out new best builds and starts to make them,
...
There is no way to ged rid of powergames
...

I'm not trying to get rid of powergamers. I also don't like that term at all. In the game you are too some extent supposed to try to be as powerful as you can be....as well as in real life. Servers that say this isn't true usually end up being more or less hypocritical because players will always be players and people will always be people.

Anyway...without getting too philiosophical I just want to restrict the AMOUNT of power between the best and the "worst" build (as I mentioned before). This would actually open up for players using more classes and builds that have been neglected but are still cool...only no one played them cause they sucked so much.  Hence, more diversity. I mean how often do you see a pure bard....?

Also, as I mentioned before, there is the approach where you use carrots for the less good builds ...but I choose this one in COMBINATION with carrots.

Thirdly I am hoping that this will have the effect of bringing players together. I am not saying I will make it impossible to solo but hopefully this is one of the reasons players will avoid it. I've seen all too many servers where RDD's, Shadowdancers or AA's just solo through the whole thing replying to group invites with "No - I'll get less XP/loot".

ShaDoOoW wrote...
Also, you havent even started modding and first what you are solving are builds limitations and balance changes.

I don't know how you would go about it but this is definately the way I would do it. I need to know as much as POSSIBLE of the system for XP, classes, loot and similar that I will be using as this will be taken into account.
 

ShaDoOoW wrote...
Im not even sure I understand your new conditionals, but if you are going to disable triple class for prestige-multiclassed charactes I would predict that monk clerics will show up.

They are not so new actually and not so strange. As I said, I played on a server (Ajojahti Nordock/Genesis Nordock) that used a similar system. Also I am even used to playing older games like the Pool of Radiance goldbox where choosing a multiclass kind of halved everything between thoose classes. For example if you choose to be a fighter/rogue you become just that half fighter/half rogue....I never liked the Fighter 1/Rogue 19 or vice versa ideology frankly...

Hmm...monk/cleric....that sounds cool

Modifié par SuperFly_2000, 05 octobre 2011 - 11:21 .

[SuperFly_2000]

By the way, one more question...

Biowares default system makes multiclassers gain less XP right?

[Failed.Bard]

SuperFly_2000 wrote...

By the way, one more question...

Biowares default system makes multiclassers gain less XP right?

  Only under certain conditions.  If you have base classes more than 2 levels apart, and they aren't a favoured class of your race, then you get a penalty.  If the levels are all within that range, or the ones outside the range are favoured classes, then you get no XP penalty still.
  Prestige classes give no penalties regardless of level difference.

[SuperFly_2000]

Hmmm interesting, thanks.

So there actually is a system in place already that tries to do what I wanted to do...only I am taking it a step further...

[SuperFly_2000]

Failed.Bard wrote...
Only under certain conditions.  If you have base classes more than 2 levels apart, and they aren't a favoured class of your race, then you get a penalty.  If the levels are all within that range, or the ones outside the range are favoured classes, then you get no XP penalty still.
  Prestige classes give no penalties regardless of level difference.

Do you know how big the XP penalty is?

Is it possible to make it larger?

[Failed.Bard]

The penalties are 20% per penalized class, and it affects all XP awards given through the standard GiveXPToCreature as well.

If you're making your own XP award system, those penalties will be added automatically on top of whatever multiclass penalties you put into your system.

[SuperFly_2000]

Failed.Bard wrote...
If you're making your own XP award system, those penalties will be added automatically on top of whatever multiclass penalties you put into your system.

Well...I don't think I'll be making my own. More leaning towards PWFXP2 even if that also has some shortcomings regarding dividing XP between PC's in a party pertaining to my vision.

I haven't been thinking about penalties so far....just the restriction of the minimum levels needed in the lesser class thingie I was talking about.

However, it could be interesting to raise that penalty to like 30-40%..

[kalbaern]

Have you looked over Blasco's XP System?

nwvault.ign.com/View.php

Modifié par kalbaern, 06 octobre 2011 - 10:55 .

[SuperFly_2000]

kalbaern wrote...
Have you looked over Blasco's XP System?

Yeah, I've looked at it many times and for what I want to have I just find it less good than PWFXP2.

The configuration sounds doubtful to me and the ancestry to Scarface's system is both good and bad...

PWFXP2 has a very nifty way to control XP and make it non-linear. For example if you want to slow down XP after level 10, like me.

Modifié par SuperFly_2000, 06 octobre 2011 - 12:08 .

[Shadooow]

Oh and btw since I also used deleveling for few issues, I found out that before you set XP to the PC back you should use delay (I used 0.3) as otherwise character can get bugged and the level up button wont appear while XPs are correct.

[ffbj]

So are those muti-class xp penalties hard-coded? If it was me I would prefer to make my own changes and get rid of the standard penalties if possible. Like 10% for every additional class beyond the original one, and 15% penalty for any prestige class.
P.S. Changed my portrait since my character is so old he turned into a lich.

Modifié par ffbj, 08 octobre 2011 - 10:34 .

[Shadooow]

Yes they are hardcoded into GiveXP, but nobody should use GiveXP anymore anyway as it has some bugs. I have found out on my PW not sure if it has something to do with custom classes from PRC but characters suddenly lost all their levels (not xp so player have to relevel again) after relogs sometimes. In that time we used old PWFXP, then author added the SetXP change, we implemented that and this problem disappeared.

So instead of GiveXPToCreature(100) use SetXP(GetXP()+100); with this you can easily add your own adjustments.