261 réponses à ce sujet

[Salaya]

Filament wrote...

...

As far as the design of the game is concerned it is basically the same. They're two different systems devised to perform the same function. One makes you open a menu screen and click "order potion", one makes you open a menu screen and click "craft potion." The way it's explained how a potion travels from the manu screen to your inventory is different but it's only a superficial difference.

I think thats not true. Different explanations to get the same result (on videogames gameplay) have direct impact on players feelings. If not, things as non-lethal walthorughs in Deus Ex games wouldnt be as important to players, for example. The ways to knock down enemies or just kill them in melee are identical. But superficial? I dont think so. Explanations matter (Or so I think, at least)

[syllogi]

Filament wrote...

TeenZombie wrote...

Just because you get an end result doesn't make it the same.  It's like comparing hunting and/or farming for you dinner to going to the supermarket.

As far as the design of the game is concerned it is basically the same. They're two different systems devised to perform the same function. One makes you open a menu screen and click "order potion", one makes you open a menu screen and click "craft potion." The way it's explained how a potion travels from the manu screen to your inventory is different but it's only a superficial difference.

No, they are not the same, because you are again comparing the end results.  If a game gives you a "mini-game" of a sort as part of the process of hunting and gathering ingredients and recipes, that is a system that makes the player feel like they've earned the result, thus it is "crafting."  There is no feeling of reward in the DA2 version.  They might as well have had potion and grenade stores in the game, there would have been no difference from what we got.

[Pasquale1234]

Filament wrote...

TeenZombie wrote...

Just because you get an end result doesn't make it the same.  It's like comparing hunting and/or farming for you dinner to going to the supermarket.

As far as the design of the game is concerned it is basically the same. They're two different systems devised to perform the same function. One makes you open a menu screen and click "order potion", one makes you open a menu screen and click "craft potion." The way it's explained how a potion travels from the manu screen to your inventory is different but it's only a superficial difference.

There were a couple of other aspects to crafting in DAO that haven't been mentioned - the fact that a character needed to be able to make poison in order to use it, ditto traps.  I feel that those things added an interesting dimension to gameplay for those who enjoyed it, but it was completely optional.

Also, you could make some extra coin with crafting skills if you so desired, whereas DA2 costs you coin if you wish to obtain the items.

There were also some minor sidequests in DAO that involved crafting.  Those seem to have been replaced with the FedEx quests.

[Yrkoon]

Filament wrote...

There was crafting in DA2,

No.  There wasn't.  Being able to walk to your desk to order potions/grenades is NOT crafting any more than calling up Pizza Hut and ordering a pizza  constitutes cooking.

You didn't like DA:O's crafting system?  Fine, But don't pretend that DA2 did crafting better.   Because it didn't.  it didn't do crafting at all.

Modifié par Yrkoon, 01 octobre 2011 - 07:14 .

[Wulfram]

Yrkoon wrote...

You didn't like DA:O's crafting system?  Fine, But don't pretend that DA2 did crafting better.   Because it didn't.  it didn't do crafting at all.

Well, whatever it did, it was better than the Origins crafting system.

Being occasionally poked in the eye with a stick would be mildly preferable to the runecrafting system in DA:A

[Yrkoon]

Yeah, I get it. My nephew, a staunch FPS fan, also thinks having conversastions with NPCs is the most tedius, boring thing ever put in a game.

I usually tell him that RPGs are not for him.

[Zanallen]

Yrkoon wrote...

No.  There wasn't.  Being able to walk to your desk to order potions/grenades is NOT crafting any more than calling up Pizza Hut and ordering a pizza  constitutes cooking.

You didn't like DA:O's crafting system?  Fine, But don't pretend that DA2 did crafting better.   Because it didn't.  it didn't do crafting at all.

That analogy would work if you had to track down the pizza recipes for Pizza Hut and then secure ingredients for them in order for them to make your pizza. There is crafting in DA2. You get the recipes and the ingredients. However, instead of making the item yourself you contract someone else to do it

You didn't like DA2's crafting system? Fine, but don't pretend DAO did crafting better.

[Yrkoon]

Again, The fact that you have to discover what's on the menu, and also have the right amount of resouces to make the purchase, does not mean you are a cook, and that you just crafted a pizza.


And I would never claim that I didn't like DA2's crafting system. Because that would be silly. DA2 DIDN'T HAVE a crafting system to like/dislike.

Modifié par Yrkoon, 01 octobre 2011 - 07:37 .

[Yrkoon]

Filament wrote...

Yrkoon wrote...

No.  There wasn't.  Being able to walk to your desk to Order runes/grenades is NOT

...really any different from DAO's system.

  Hogwash.  It's significally different, and  everyone here knows it.

UNLIKE the  dumbed down  Home-shopping-Network nonsense of DA2, in DA:O if you're in the bowels of the deep roads and you just ran out of  lyrium/healing pots, you could craft more of them right on the spot, if you've got the skills.  You could do the same thing if you're in the middle of the Bracilian forest, and you need some bombs ASAP.

THAT'S crafting.  That is the reward for players who took  time to learn the adequate skills.  And that's all *gone* now, because it was too complicated for Idiots.

Modifié par Yrkoon, 01 octobre 2011 - 07:54 .

[bleetman]

Wulfram wrote...

Being occasionally poked in the eye with a stick would be mildly preferable to the runecrafting system in DA:A

Hey now, don't tell me you don't miss the constant back and forth between Vigil's Keep and the courtyard, whilst turning a billion basic runes into a single paragon rune via a multiple step hiearchy? That stuff was hilarious.

[whykikyouwhy]

Yrkoon wrote...

Filament wrote...

Yrkoon wrote...

No.  There wasn't.  Being able to walk to your desk to Order runes/grenades is NOT

...really any different from DAO's system.

  Hogwash.  It's significally different, and  everyone here knows it.

UNLIKE the silly Home-shopping-Network nonsense of DA2, in DA:O if you're in the bowels of the deep roads and you just ran out of  lyrium/healing pots, you could craft more of them right on the spot, if you've got the skills.  You could do the same thing if you're in the middle of the Bracilian forest, and you need some bombs ASAP.

THAT'S crafting.  That is the reward for players who took  time to learn the adequate skills.  And that's all *gone* now, because it was too complicated for Idiots.

Hmm. I must have missed the chance to buy some Ginsu knives, a Magic Chop, and a synthetic opal brooch in the shape of a leopard from the DA2 home shopping network. A pity... 

Perhaps better planning would help prevent running out of lyrium pots when you're questing.

On that note, the thing about DA:O crafting is that it relied on planning as well. You had to have enough distillation agent, flasks, elfroot, etc.

[Yrkoon]

Filament wrote...

Yrkoon wrote...
Hogwash.  It's significally different, and  everyone here knows it.

A few people here are making a mountain out of a superficial wording molehill.

I guess your example was never an issue for me because I never sucked enough to run out of potions in the middle of a dungeon. And it seems a little absurd that you'd carry a pack full of ingredients to set up camp in the middle of a werewolf infested dungeon and light a fire and put the ingredients in the pot and simmer for a few hours, rather than preparing what you need beforehand in a safe environment. Even with the crafting skill brought back, which I'm tentatively in favor of, I wouldn't be opposed to it still being restricted to your 'hub' location.

Oh indeed.

It's much less absurd to  encorporate  Amazon.com  into our  midieval dark fantasies instead.  Need some grenades?  Just go to your desk, order as many as you like, and we'll deliver them to your door.  instantly.

Just don't attempt to craft these things yourself because... well,  because you're Hawke, you don't have the skills, Herp-derp.

Modifié par Yrkoon, 01 octobre 2011 - 08:17 .

[Wulfram]

Hawke's a Hero not a Herbalist. They've got better things to do than stand around all day brewing potions.

Though I suppose they could have opened each act with Hawke having 500 potions he crafted in the intervening years.

[Rovay]

Yrkoon wrote...

Oh indeed.

It's much be less absurd to  encorporate  Amazon.com  into our  midieval dark fantasies instead.  Need some grenades?  Just go to your desk, order as many as you like, and we'll deliver them to your door.  instantly.

Just don't attempt to craft these things yourself because... well,  because you're Hawke, you don't have the skills, Herp-derp.

... And that's somehow worser that creating a complex potion/granade/rune/whatever on the spot, without any kind of apparature that is used to create such things?

[Yrkoon]

Wulfram wrote...

Hawke's a Hero not a Herbalist..

That still doesn't stop him from being a better miner than any Dwarf, apparently.

He's also an adventurer, btw.    And after 7 years of full time adventuring, common f**king sense says he might have learned how to extract some healing fluids from any of the dozens of elfroot deposits he's found.  But no.  He's too DUMB, which is why commoner merchants  are still able to take his money.

Lets cut the BS now, The ONLY valid defense of the new system is that it's more  simple.  Stick with that, people.  But don't claim that it's a type of crafting.  it's NOT.  It's an insult to anyone who enjoys crafting  in RPGs

Modifié par Yrkoon, 01 octobre 2011 - 08:20 .

[Wulfram]

Yrkoon wrote...

That that still doesn't stop him from being a better miner than any Dwarf, apparently.

I don't know what you're referring to.  Something in Legacy?

He's also an adventurer, btw.    And after 7 years of full time adventuring, common f**king sense says he might have learned how to extract some healing fluids from any of the dozens of elfroot deposits he's found.  But no.  He's too DUMB, which is why commoner merchants  are still able to take his money.

In 7 years of adventuring, he has no doubt learnt that people who do this for a living do it better than him, and that he's far better off leaving it to them than bodging together a poultice himself in the middle of defending himself from skeletons.

edit:  I don't claim it's Crafting.  This is obvious, because crafting in single player CRPGs is universally awful.

Modifié par Wulfram, 01 octobre 2011 - 08:21 .

[whykikyouwhy]

Yrkoon wrote...

Lets cut the BS now, The ONLY valid defense of the new system is that it's more convienient.  Stick with that, people.  But don't claim that it's a type of crafting.  it's NOT.  It's an insult to anyone who enjoys crafting  in RPGs

By that logic, shouldn't we cut out all shops and their merchants from all RPGs? I mean, we could just roll or build heroes that could collect some ore, go to the forge, hammer out some armor, and then go to the forests, get some sap and magic mushrooms, sit over the fire and blend out the ingredients.

Maybe in his/her spare time, that hero might actually get to do some hero-y things...you know, the stuff we typically play RPGs for.

[Yrkoon]

Wulfram wrote...

Yrkoon wrote...

That that still doesn't stop him from being a better miner than any Dwarf, apparently.

I don't know what you're referring to.  Something in Legacy?

You've never found lyrium  or silverite deposits in DA2?

Wulfram wrote...

He's also an adventurer, btw.    And after 7 years of full time adventuring, common f**king sense says he might have learned how to extract some healing fluids from any of the dozens of elfroot deposits he's found.  But no.  He's too DUMB, which is why commoner merchants  are still able to take his money.

In 7 years of adventuring, he has no doubt learnt that people who do this for a living do it better than him, and that he's far better off leaving it to them than bodging together a poultice himself in the middle of defending himself from skeletons.

Translation:  he's an idiot.  My Level 3 human noble  warrior could craft lesser healing pots.  Yet Hawke, who's got magic in his family  (or is, in fact, a mage himself) and who's forced to live his life on the road, can never learn how to create something from  even the simplest of alchemical formulae.  Ever.  

What's wrong with this picture?  Wait.  nothing's wrong with this picture.  Hawke's just an idiot.  And so is everyone else in his party, as none of them  can ever learn to  craft anything either.  Ever.

Modifié par Yrkoon, 01 octobre 2011 - 08:34 .

[Yrkoon]

Filament wrote...

It's the same basic system as in Origins except more convenient.

..... and your Protagonist can't actually craft anything himself, and neither can anyone else in his party.

Again, cooking dinner vs.  ordering dinner.  Same thing in your eyes?  Really?  LOL

Modifié par Yrkoon, 01 octobre 2011 - 08:35 .

[Reno_Tarshil]

It's a crafting system as designated by Bioware, end of story.