But you still get to eat.Yrkoon wrote...
And the fact that your Protagonist can't actually craft anything himself, and neither can anyone else in his party.Filament wrote...
It's the same basic system as in Origins except more convenient.
Again, cooking dinner vs. Ordering dinner. Same thing? Really? LOL
Yrkoon wrote...
And the fact that your Protagonist can't actually craft anything himself, and neither can anyone else in his party.Filament wrote...
It's the same basic system as in Origins except more convenient.
Again, cooking dinner vs. Ordering dinner. Same thing? Really? LOL
Modifié par hoorayforicecream, 01 octobre 2011 - 08:36 .
bleetman wrote...
Wulfram wrote...
Being occasionally poked in the eye with a stick would be mildly preferable to the runecrafting system in DA:A
Hey now, don't tell me you don't miss the constant back and forth between Vigil's Keep and the courtyard, whilst turning a billion basic runes into a single paragon rune via a multiple step hiearchy? That stuff was hilarious.
Yrkoon wrote...
You've never found lyrium or silverite deposits in DA2?
Yrkoon wrote...
Translation: he's an idiot. My Level 3 human noble warrior could craft lesser healing pots. Yet Hawke, who's got magic in his family (or is, in fact, a mage himself) and who's forced to live his life on the road, can never learn how to create something from even the simplest of alchemical formulae. Ever.
What's wrong with this picture? Wait. nothing's wrong with this picture. Hawke's just an idiot. And so is everyone else in his party, as none of them can ever learn to craft anything either. Ever.
Modifié par Wulfram, 01 octobre 2011 - 08:44 .
Zjarcal wrote...
I swear, 40% of my time playing Awakening was doing just that...
Guest_Puddi III_*
And I would still consider finding the ingredients and recipes and delegating to a craftsman, crafting. Not that I particularly care either way on this point, as I said I wouldn't mind crafting skills, however Wulfram makes a good point about craftsmen vs adventurers. The fact that DAO was ridiculous about letting the Warden be able to craft like a master craftsman doesn't mean that should be continued.Yrkoon wrote...
..... and your Protagonist can't actually craft anything himself, and neither can anyone else in his party.
In purpose and presentation and result, yes. It's the same thing.Again, cooking dinner (by choosing from a list, pressing a button, and suddenly having dinner appear in your inventory) vs. Ordering dinner (by choosing from a list, pressing a button, and suddenly having dinner appear in your inventory). Same thing?
Zanallen wrote...
Zjarcal wrote...
I swear, 40% of my time playing Awakening was doing just that...
That's why, other than the runes needed for the Wade quests, I completely ignored the rune system in Awakening.
Zanallen wrote...
Zjarcal wrote...
I swear, 40% of my time playing Awakening was doing just that...
That's why, other than the runes needed for the Wade quests, I completely ignored the rune system in Awakening.
Um no, Using the environment to create the tools needed to stop the blight (have you ever spammed Bombs at crowds of Darkspawn?) does not constitute being an idiot. it constitutes the opposite of that.Wulfram wrote...
Yrkoon wrote...
Translation: he's an idiot. My Level 3 human noble warrior could craft lesser healing pots. Yet Hawke, who's got magic in his family (or is, in fact, a mage himself) and who's forced to live his life on the road, can never learn how to create something from even the simplest of alchemical formulae. Ever.
What's wrong with this picture? Wait. nothing's wrong with this picture. Hawke's just an idiot. And so is everyone else in his party, as none of them can ever learn to craft anything either. Ever.
No, your HNW is an idiot. All the thousands who died because he was dawdling around picking mushrooms and stewing them into poultices in the middle of the deep roads rather than fighting the blight would probably prefer he never learnt herbalism.
Modifié par Yrkoon, 01 octobre 2011 - 08:49 .
With the catch that again, what actually is the good and bad feature of the game comes down to individual preferences. See: angry reactions to Ms.Hepler's stance on the necessity of combat.Wulfram wrote...
Focusing on good features and discarding bad ones does improve a game.
Would say yeah, it sounds you're right in recognizing a bias here.But I am probably biased. I've never encountered a crafting system which I didn't consider tedious, overpowered or both.
Modifié par tmp7704, 01 octobre 2011 - 09:35 .
Reno_Tarshil wrote...
Zanallen wrote...
Zjarcal wrote...
I swear, 40% of my time playing Awakening was doing just that...
That's why, other than the runes needed for the Wade quests, I completely ignored the rune system in Awakening.
This is why I bought the Grandmaster Lightning and Fire in Origins because I couldn't stand the Runecrafting system. DA2 did the runes better.
What? DA:O allows you to take 4 ranks in the various crafting skills, which means you COULD become a master craftsman if you're willing to spend the limited character leveling resources to do so. What's the problem?Filament wrote...
And I would still consider finding the ingredients and recipes and delegating to a craftsman, crafting. Not that I particularly care either way on this point, as I said I wouldn't mind crafting skills, however Wulfram makes a good point about craftsmen vs adventurers. The fact that DAO was ridiculous about letting the Warden be able to craft like a master craftsman doesn't mean that should be continued.Yrkoon wrote...
..... and your Protagonist can't actually craft anything himself, and neither can anyone else in his party.
Which is only half the picture. Crafting is a process. Just like gaining levels is a process. People derive satisfaction from undertaking the process. You call that "overly complex, and therefore bad", I call it earning your rewards.Filament wrote...
In purpose and presentation and result, yes. It's the same thing.
Modifié par Yrkoon, 01 octobre 2011 - 08:57 .
Yrkoon wrote...
But keep going with that. Soon, we might be able to get you to claim that silly RPG things like conversations with your companions, and loot grabbing are pointless wastes of time too.
Guest_Puddi III_*
Master craftsmen dedicate their whole life to the art of crafting their specific goods.Yrkoon wrote...
What? DA:O allows you to take 4 ranks in the various crafting skills, which means you COULD become a master craftsman if you're willing to spend the limited character leveling resources to do so. What's the problem?Filament wrote...
And I would still consider finding the ingredients and recipes and delegating to a craftsman, crafting. Not that I particularly care either way on this point, as I said I wouldn't mind crafting skills, however Wulfram makes a good point about craftsmen vs adventurers. The fact that DAO was ridiculous about letting the Warden be able to craft like a master craftsman doesn't mean that should be continued.
DA2 has the important parts of the other half of the picture too. You collect the ingredients and the recipes. That's all the undertaking Origins had. The crafting process itself was just the press of a button.Which is only half the picture. Crafting is a process. Just like gaining levels is a process. People derive satisfaction from undertaking the process. You call that "overly complex, and therefore bad", I call it earning your rewards.Filament wrote...
In purpose and presentation and result, yes. It's the same thing.
Modifié par Filament, 01 octobre 2011 - 09:09 .
Wulfram wrote...
Yrkoon wrote...
But keep going with that. Soon, we might be able to get you to claim that silly RPG things like conversations with your companions, and loot grabbing are pointless wastes of time too.
I do in fact think that we could do with having considerably less looting in RPGs.
Particularly when we're supposed to be under time pressure - is City Elf hurrying to rescue Shianni or systematically looting the Arl's palace? Would Loghain have charged and saved the battle of Ostagar if the Warden hadn't tarried to unlock a chest or two on the way to lighting the beacon? Does Hawke really care about his mother or finding some cool new shoes in a chest?
And while taking a defeated enemies cool sword, or the dragon's horde is a good part of a heroic story, I'm not sure nicking things from random barrels lieing in the street is.
Modifié par Yrkoon, 01 octobre 2011 - 09:29 .
Wulfram wrote...
No, your HNW is an idiot. All the thousands who died because he was dawdling around picking mushrooms and stewing them into poultices in the middle of the deep roads rather than fighting the blight would probably prefer he never learnt herbalism.
Modifié par Drasanil, 01 octobre 2011 - 09:12 .
Modifié par Joy Divison, 01 octobre 2011 - 09:15 .
Joy Divison wrote...
You are missing his point. He wants to MAKE the stuff, not order it.
Er.... and this opinion of yours is based on... what?Filament wrote...
Master craftsmen dedicate their whole life to the art of crafting their specific goods.Yrkoon wrote...
What? DA:O allows you to take 4 ranks in the various crafting skills, which means you COULD become a master craftsman if you're willing to spend the limited character leveling resources to do so. What's the problem?
LOL Ok. Since we've NOW decided to get all technical, I'm going to call you out. NO. DA2's system does NOT require you to collect any ingredients at all. You merely have to discover where they are. Or "see" them. That's... not crafting. That's exploration. Humongous difference.Filament wrote...
DA2 has the important parts of the other half of the picture too. You collect the ingredients and the recipes. That's all the undertaking Origins had. The crafting process itself was just the press of a button.
I'm not really here to debate the definition of complex. And by the way, even the individual crafting ingredients in DA:O had a use. You could, for example, consume an elfroot and gain a small bonus to health. And here's another fact that your argument completely ignores. You could actually MAKE MONEY by crafting in DA:O. thus adding yet another utility purpose to the process. Can't do that in DA2... since you don't get to craft anything.Filament wrote...As for the other parts, overly complex isn't the right description, more like needlessly complex... but even then, just the word 'complex' gives it too much credit. It's not hard to understand. It's just busy-work (shuffling in and out of home base, running around to find or buy the proper ingredients, hoarding junk items) and its so-called 'complexity' doesn't offer any advantages over the alternative. You still end up with an item of use in your inventory at the end of the process. If the process in Origins allowed you to experiment with ingredients to make new recipes, and if DA2 couldn't offer that with its alternative system, then you would have a better case.
Modifié par Yrkoon, 01 octobre 2011 - 09:31 .
Yrkoon wrote...
Terrible argument, as it doesn't even remotely apply to DA2, who's 3 plots are not time based at all, not even theoretically.
Guest_Puddi III_*
If someone is going to be able to make a potion of heroism or a paragon rune or a grenade of resurrection, they would need more skill that just doing it as a side hobby while they're not off killing darkspawn, I should think. But w/e, this point is irrelevant.Yrkoon wrote...
Er.... and this opinion of yours is based on... what?Filament wrote...
Master craftsmen dedicate their whole life to the art of crafting their specific goods.
LOL. It's amazing how absurdly different you're painting the two different methods of collecting ingredients when they're so similar. I don't claim that they're the same, but inasmuch as they ARE different, I find DA2's method superior. Both for the tangible reward for doing the collecting (experience), and for the reduction of tedium.DA2's system does NOT require you to collect any ingredients at all. You merely have to discover them.
Woo hoo.And by the way, even the individual crafting ingredients in DA:O had a use. You could, for example, consume an elfroot and gain a small bonus to health.
I did that once, the bonuses were incredibly negligible. Worthless feature.I didn't ignore it, you just have a bad memory.And here's another fact that your argument completely ignores. You could actually MAKE MONEY by crafting in DA:O. thus adding yet another utility purpose to the process. Can't do that in DA2... since you don't get to craft anything.
Personally, i frequently skip looting in such situations, pretty much due to reasoning you list here. However, i appreciate the game allows me to make such decision, instead of suggested alternative it should just decide it for me.Wulfram wrote...
I do in fact think that we could do with having considerably less looting in RPGs.
Particularly when we're supposed to be under time pressure - is City Elf hurrying to rescue Shianni or systematically looting the Arl's palace? Would Loghain have charged and saved the battle of Ostagar if the Warden hadn't tarried to unlock a chest or two on the way to lighting the beacon? Does Hawke really care about his mother or finding some cool new shoes in a chest?
tmp7704 wrote...
Personally, i frequently skip looting in such situations, pretty much due to reasoning you list here. However, i appreciate the game allows me to make such decision, instead of suggested alternative it should just decide it for me.
(and yeah, having some actual consequences if one chose to make frequent loot stops, like not getting to the objective in time, would be especially neat, imo)
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