261 réponses à ce sujet

[tmp7704]

Zanallen wrote...

Perhaps something like in Deus Ex where if you spend too much time exploring the office in the building miss out on a sidequest in the next mission?

Had no idea there was something like that in Deus Ex, but given the amount of time i've spent in the Sarif Industries it's probably safe to say i missed out on that sidequest xD

[Yrkoon]

Filament wrote...

DA2's system does NOT require you to collect any ingredients at all.  You merely have to  discover them.

LOL. It's amazing how absurdly different you're painting the two different methods of collecting ingredients when they're so similar. I don't claim that they're the same, but inasmuch as they ARE different, I find DA2's method superior. Both for the tangible reward for doing the collecting (experience), and for the reduction of tedium.

 OK, I'm tired of these silly contradictions from you.   On this thread we've seen you argue that  that  one method is needlessly tedius and complex while the other is simple and convenient.  Then later on you argue that the two systems are basically the same.    Now you're  trying to get away with arguing both at the same time

And  you're  still missing the point.   DA2's method isn't crafting.  it's exploration that leads to increased merchant wares.  You're Not collecting ingredients.  You're  not crafting anything yourself.  You're not using any earned skill.

Filament wrote...

And by the way, even the individual crafting  ingredients  in DA:O had a use.  You could, for example, consume an elfroot and gain a small bonus to health.

Woo hoo. I did that once, the bonuses were incredibly negligible. Worthless feature.

Aaah, excellent deflection of the point.    But I wouldn't go there if I were you, as I can come up with a list of utterly worthless, negligible things/features in DA2  that would far surpass anything you can come up with from DA:O.

Filament wrote...

And here's another fact that your argument completely ignores.  You could actually MAKE MONEY by crafting in DA:O. thus adding yet another utility purpose to the process.  Can't do that in DA2... since you don't get to craft anything.

I didn't ignore it, you just have a bad memory.

Oh?   Then by all means, show me on this thread  where you've cited or responded to the profit-making  element of DA:O's crafting system.

Modifié par Yrkoon, 01 octobre 2011 - 09:59 .

[Wulfram]

tmp7704 wrote...

Personally, i frequently skip looting in such situations, pretty much due to reasoning you list here. However, i appreciate the game allows me to make such decision, instead of suggested alternative it should just decide it for me.

It's not a decision.  Not when there's no consequences to it.  And often important items like companion gifts or parts of sets if you do pass them up.

And the thing is, half the time it doesn't make sense.  Either you're in a situation where there's no particular reason there'd be things you'd want to loot lieing around.  Or you could just do your looting on the way out, if there wasn't a cutscene to teleport you out of the area at the end.

(and yeah, having some actual consequences if one chose to make frequent loot stops, like not getting to the objective in time, would be especially neat, imo)

Putting actual time restrictions makes people scream, so I can't see it happening.  Plus half of Bioware's plots seem to be based on the idea that the player always arrives just too late, particularly in DA2.

Though I suppose you could have NPC reaction to prod the player onward - Soris should tell you you're an evil bastard if you're hanging around looting while Shianni is raped, Alistair would insist you get on with lighting the beacon.

[Yrkoon]

Filament wrote...

Yrkoon wrote...

 You're also contradicting yourself... vehemently arguing how one method is needlessly tedius and complex  while the other  is simple and convenient.... yet they're both basically the same?  well, which is it?

They're the same except where DA2 removes the needlessly tedious and complex parts,

In other words they're different.  They're so different that one system is  complex and tedius, while the other is simple and convenient.  But  they're basically  the same.  Yeah, that's not a contradiction at all.   LOL


Of course, this aspect of the discussion is beyond pointless, since the "needlessly tedius and complex parts" that DA2 removes happen to be  1)Ingredient collecting and 2)actual crafting.    In other words, they've taken  crafting out of the crafting system.  And Filament approves!

You don't like crafting?  Fine.  Just say so.  But don't LIE and claim that it's not an important issue  to you either way,  as you take one side and  ruthlessly   argue  it for  4 straight pages.

Modifié par Yrkoon, 01 octobre 2011 - 10:27 .

[Mike_Neel]

I kind of miss the crafting to a degree. I admit not everyone liked it or even bothered using it, but I used it a few times to craft some potions so I could later sell them for coin. I'm not really sure DA2 system is better, it's essentially a scavenger hunt. I can totally see why they got rid of it though when most people would rather buy the potions instead of putting points in the skill to upgrade it.

Either way having it no longer in DA2 didn't detract any from my over all experience or "Fun-level". DA2 still offered plenty of options to farm for coin. Instead of farming ingredients to craft mabari crunches and lyrium potions I never used I simply farmed torn trousers and fancy scarfs from barrels and dead bodies. Same result, but the first one opened up greater role play opportunities.

[tmp7704]

Wulfram wrote...

It's not a decision.  Not when there's no consequences to it.

There most certainly already are consequences to choosing whether you loot or not -- positive if you do, negative if you don't. They aren't balanced consequences, but i don't see that named as requirement.

Putting actual time restrictions makes people scream, so I can't see it happening.

I wasn't thinking about time restrictions per se -- rather, event-based system (say, from checking/looting more than few times along the way).  And yes, getting a prompt from a companion indicating that there may be actual consequences to your behaviour would be sensible.

[Yrkoon]

Filament wrote...

I suppose if you can't grasp it it would seem like a contradiction to you, yes.

No man, arguing that something is different, then arguing that it's the same is a contradiction, Especially in the Hyperbole ridden way that  you've argued both.  Don't be blaming others for your  own warped argument.

Filament wrote...

Of course, this aspect of the discussion is beyond pointless, since the "needlessly tedius and complex parts" that DA2 removes happens to be  Ingredient collecting and actual crafting.

Nah,

Nah?

Can Hawke craft  an item himself in DA2? 
Can Hawk collect ingredients then use those ingredients  to  personally  craft  an item himself? 

Yes or no, Filament?

Modifié par Yrkoon, 01 octobre 2011 - 10:22 .

[Wulfram]

tmp7704 wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

It's not a decision.  Not when there's no consequences to it.

There most certainly already are consequences to choosing whether you loot or not -- positive if you do, negative if you don't. They aren't balanced consequences, but i don't see that named as requirement.

Well, I suppose it's a decision in the same way "Cake or Death" is.  But I don't see how it's a decision which is worthwhile including when all it achieves is to punish people for roleplaying.

[Morroian]

Yrkoon wrote...

And  you're  still missing the point.   DA2's method isn't crafting.  it's exploration that leads to increased merchant wares.  You're Not collecting ingredients.  You're  not crafting anything yourself.  You're not using any earned skill.

I would argue that DAOs crafting was simple but tedious hence why they got rid of changed it. If they want to do crafting do it properly or do what they did in DA2.  

Modifié par Morroian, 01 octobre 2011 - 11:44 .

[TheRealJayDee]

Wulfram wrote...

Hawke's a Hero not a Herbalist. They've got better things to do than stand around all day brewing potions.

Though I suppose they could have opened each act with Hawke having 500 potions he crafted in the intervening years.

Well, I think it would have been great. Way better than finding the same junk items in my inventory as three years ago, while having no idea what Hawke actually did during the skipped years.

[TheRealJayDee]

Morroian wrote...

I would argue that DAOs crafting was simple but tedious hence why they got rid of it. If they want to do crafting do it properly or do what they did in DA2.  

Improve a part of DA:O that could have been better? No, let's basically remove it. Innovation, yeah!

[just_me]

mhm...
crafting in DA2:
find the recipe
find the ingredients
"buy" the item

crafting in DA:O
buy the recipe (and invest skill points)
buy the ingredients (almost all ingredients can not be found in sufficient quantity in the game itself)
craft the item

... both systems are awful ... but DA2s is at least less tedious.
To claim that you could make potions etc on the fly in DA:O is not really true since necessary ingredients never turn up as random loot (trap triggers, flasks, different agents), which means you had to stock up on these items beforehand (by buying it)... you could very well "buy" the required number of potions beforehand via DA2s system...

[Wulfram]

TheRealJayDee wrote...
Improve a part of DA:O that could have been better? No, let's basically remove it. Innovation, yeah!

Replacing a mechanic which I never used with one which I do seems like a good move to me.

[Yrkoon]

Filament wrote...

Yrkoon wrote...

Filament wrote...

I suppose if you can't grasp it it would seem like a contradiction to you, yes.

No man, arguing that something is different, then arguing that it's the same is a contradiction.  Don't be blaming others for your  own warped argument.

It's only warped if you can't grasp a point that doesn't come in the form of a simple binary. They're the same in the ways that I value. They're different in ways I don't value and don't see as fundamental for the system to be called 'crafting'. If you don't understand that, I can't help you.

Translation:  They're different in that I like  the non-crafting system over the crafting system.     I don't want to have to deal with having to  carry around crafting ingredients and craft things myself!  because that's needlessly complex!

Filament wrote...

Yes or no, Filament?

Hawke can gather resources,

Bullsh*t.  At no point in the game can  Hawke EVER  collect a single  crafting ingredient/resource on  his/her person, inventory or storage space, with the possible exception of a piece of the high dragon, in act 3, or a piece of the Idol in act 3. 

 

stuff.

So the answer is no.  Hawke cannot personally craft anything in this game.

[Yrkoon]

Wulfram wrote...

TheRealJayDee wrote...
Improve a part of DA:O that could have been better? No, let's basically remove it. Innovation, yeah!

Replacing a mechanic which I never used

  Never used?  Really?   Then why do you have the  Tinkerer Achievement in your DA:O characters profile?

Edit:    Hell, you've got the CRAFTY acheivement.   Which means you've used  the crafting system in DA:O at least 25 times.

Modifié par Yrkoon, 01 octobre 2011 - 10:55 .

[Wulfram]

Yrkoon wrote...

  Never used?  Really?   Then why do you have the  Tinkerer Achievement in your DA:O characters profile?

If you're really feeling that pedantic, then I'll say barely used.  I tried it out obviously, that's how I know how rubbish it is.  But I pretty much ignore it entirely after the first or second playthrough.  And I went through the incredibly tedious process of creating the necessary rune for Vigilance.

edit: Crafting Vigilance alone would probably qualify me for Crafty.

Modifié par Wulfram, 01 octobre 2011 - 10:58 .

[Morroian]

TheRealJayDee wrote...

Morroian wrote...

I would argue that DAOs crafting was simple but tedious hence why they got rid of changed it. If they want to do crafting do it properly or do what they did in DA2.  

Improve a part of DA:O that could have been better? No, let's basically remove it. Innovation, yeah!

Except they haven't removed it, they've kept it simple but removed the tediousness.

Modifié par Morroian, 01 octobre 2011 - 11:45 .

[Anomaly-]

I gotta say, I much preferred Origins' crafting. I never even used it in DA2. I just had no interest in DA2's system. I actually enjoy having to hunt down recipes and ingredients, manage my inventory space and decide ahead of time what I'll need for where I'm going. I also think you should have to invest in crafting to be good at it. Not only do I like doing these things, but they just make sense to me.

In DA2, it just felt like a tacked on feature that gave a (nearly) free bonus for anyone who wanted it. Didn't do anything to help me define my character or what he/she is good at. Besides that, it made no sense. How are these resources making it back to the guy who works with them? The same method of wizardly air travel the game makes no mention of that allows Hawke to know that this random pile of bones found in the corner of this dungeon is actually the remains of some priestess that random priest #7 in the chantry "thought he would never see again"?

Origins could have been better, with more interesting ways of acquiring ingredients and recipes, but overall, much more interesting to me than DA2's system, which just felt like a lazy afterthought.

Modifié par Anomaly-, 02 octobre 2011 - 01:46 .

[tmp7704]

Wulfram wrote...

Well, I suppose it's a decision in the same way "Cake or Death" is.  But I don't see how it's a decision which is worthwhile including when all it achieves is to punish people for roleplaying.

Perhaps you don't see it because you look at it from 'wrong' perspective -- as being able to put your character at disadvantage as result of taken choice isn't "punishing people for roleplaying" but simply roleplaying, period. The difficulty obtained as result of taken action can be seen as a gain from perspective of person shaping personalized story for their character, not "punishment".

And yes, it's not different from "cake or death" choice from such RP point of view. Or in case of DAO, "dark ritual or ultimate sacrifice".

Modifié par tmp7704, 02 octobre 2011 - 01:05 .

[Quething]

tmp7704 wrote...

Perhaps you don't see it because you look at it from 'wrong' perspective -- as being able to put your character at disadvantage as result of taken choice isn't "punishing people for roleplaying" but simply roleplaying, period. The difficulty obtained as result of taken action can be seen as a gain from perspective of person shaping personalized story for their character, not "punishment".

And yes, it's not different from "cake or death" choice from such RP point of view. Or in case of DAO, "dark ritual or ultimate sacrifice".

That's not quite a fair comparison. The Dark Ritual and all its non-taken permutations (Self, Loghain, Alistair) are all roleplaying consequences for a roleplaying choice; your story plays out differently depending on what you choose. The consequences follow perfectly from the action. Both the player and the Warden can reasonably predict what will happen as a result of the decision made.

Missing your class gloves because you're actually trying to get to your mother before something dire happens to her or playing Ostagar with two less bomb recipies or no green equipment whatsoever is a mechanical consequence for a roleplaying choice. It actually makes the game more difficult to beat. It's not a logical in-game consequence that "racing to save your cousin" means "require more time and effort to kill an urelated pack of darkspawn a month later" - that's not something that would follow in the Warden's universe. It really only barely follows from our perspective, and we understand loot tables (which don't exist in the Warden's world, unless you think wolves actually drop coin or deepstalkers are supposed to, lore-wise, walk around with health pots in their innards).

I'm a strong believer that mechanics should support the story as much as possible, and when it's required that they not in order for the game to be fun, the design should do its damnedest not to draw attention to it. Where that leaves us on the crafting issue, I'm not sure. I do think it's one of those many sad BioWare ironies that the Warden, who's lauded and needed primarily for combat prowess and was on a time limit, was free to roleplay as a skilled craftsman who held a plausible peacetime profession, while Hawke, who had nothing but time, was raised as an active part of the Lothering produce economy, and is desperate for any work at all through the first act, can demonstrate no skills beyond killing.

Modifié par Quething, 02 octobre 2011 - 02:49 .

[tmp7704]

Quething wrote...

That's not quite a fair comparison. The Dark Ritual and all its non-taken permutations (Self, Loghain, Alistair) are all roleplaying consequences for a roleplaying choice; your story plays out differently depending on what you choose. The consequences follow perfectly from the action. Both the player and the Warden can reasonably predict what will happen as a result of the decision made.

Missing your class gloves because you're actually trying to get to your mother before something dire happens to her or playing Ostagar with two less bomb recipies or no green equipment whatsoever is a mechanical consequence for a roleplaying choice.

I'd say having your character actually die and become thus unable to appear in followup installments of the game goes quite beyond 'roleplaying consequences' and straight into mechanics territory, on level considerably more drastic than missing out on a piece of equipment...

(granted, it's a decision for which the players ultimately got a get ouf of jail card in said followup, but that's not something known to them at the point they'd normally make such decision i.e. before Awakening shipped)

Modifié par tmp7704, 02 octobre 2011 - 03:04 .