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[Valmy]

tmp7704 wrote...

Count Viceroy wrote...

Well, you'd end up with an army of untrustworthy bad guys at your heels though. Might be a bit ... messy.

Absolutely; which puts into perspective the supposedly great idea that's turning Loghain into a Warden. After all he's hardly above the status of untrustworthy bad guy himself.

Huh?  What is he going to do?  Feed the Archdemon information?

[tmp7704]

Valmy wrote...

Huh?  What is he going to do?  Feed the Archdemon information?

Don't know, maybe not show up on the battlefield with the force he's been supposed to lead, thus leaving all others to die?

[Xaila]

Did anyone ever have Loghain and Sten in the same party? Sten says something about how the Qunari aren't really into killing their vanquished foes because it's a "waste" of bodies. They'd much rather use them for other purposes. I was interested to hear him say that, but I guess it fits.



It also fit the staunchly morally grey pragmatic type character I was going for. It may not have been morally satisfying to spare him, but as a Dalish she didn't really have much connection to the larger Ferelden society. I think it's much more morally satisfying to kill Loghain when you play as a human noble or a city elf. It's somewhat different playing a race/culture that are relative "outsiders" to all the political intrigue and social inequality going on there.



I don't really understand the OOC moral outrage here. Ultimately he's not a real guy. I'd rather save my venom for REAL dictators/murderers/killers. If that makes me akin to an IRL **** apologist or something...well, ok.

[Laurelinde]

ITT: Large group of people in not-agreeing-about-everything shocker.



P.S. Loghain smells.

[Xaila]

Laurelinde wrote...

ITT: Large group of people in not-agreeing-about-everything shocker.

P.S. Loghain smells.

But he does his hair so nicely!

[Count Viceroy]

He's just using steel wiring like the rest of the population.

[Mystranna Kelteel]

Loghain has proven himself a traitor to pretty much everyone in Ferelden. What makes people think he'll be loyal to the Grey Wardens solely because he lost a duel? He can't be trusted. I don't care what "meta-gaming knowledge" you have of how he behaves in the endgame, he can't be trusted. Not to mention that killing him isn't about "petty revenge", it's about justice and putting an end to his hugely expansive treason. Even Anora knows and says he needs to pay for his crimes, and there's absolutely zero reason to actually trust Loghain in anything.

As soon as he sees Leliana he might go off on a tear and kill her or something for being Orlesian, and accuse the PC of once again collaborating to put Orlais on the throne. (I know, I know, he doesn't, but that's meta-gaming knowledge, as I said.) Just saying, the man is not well.

[Neo_Wolf]

Reading the Dragon Age novel "the Stolen Throne" by David Gaider, helps gives a lot more insight into Loghains personality and motivations.



However despite his history and totally justified hatres of the Orlais, what he did to Marics son was unforgiveable and very out of character.



Personally I don't think the loghain we see in the game is mentally well, he is a much more extreme version of who he normally is... although even in the novel we see him start to make steps towards the version we see in the game such as the info about Katriel he did not reveal to Maric when he exposed her.



With my first character I killed him, he had lost his way and although it was sad, it needed to be done for the greater good.. it was one of the hard decisions the normal "well" Loghain would have made because noone else would.



As for Allistair.. those best in positions of power are those who do not seek them. Allisatir would rather do anything than be king, which likely means he would make a good king. I put him on the throne as loghains daughters husband.. it was Maric and Rowan all over again.

[Axterix]

Mystranna Kelteel wrote...

Loghain has proven himself a traitor to pretty much everyone in Ferelden. What makes people think he'll be loyal to the Grey Wardens solely because he lost a duel? He can't be trusted. I don't care what "meta-gaming knowledge" you have of how he behaves in the endgame, he can't be trusted. Not to mention that killing him isn't about "petty revenge", it's about justice and putting an end to his hugely expansive treason. Even Anora knows and says he needs to pay for his crimes, and there's absolutely zero reason to actually trust Loghain in anything.

Thing is, Loghain is extremely loyal to Ferelden.  To the point that he'd let the son of his best friend die to protect it.  At the time, the Blight wasn't a huge threat, was talk of it being a false blight.  So, from his point of view, Orlesians continued to be a bigger threat.  Nor does anyone outside of the Wardens know why a warden is necessary to end a blight.  He figured he took care of the Orlesians back then, he could handle a blight.

By the point of the Landsmeet, the blight has grown, it is the biggest threat to Ferelden.  And therefore, he will do what is necessary to end it.

Now, once the Blight is past, can he be trusted?  Would he go and meddle in Orlesian affairs or other matters and cause more situations like the Warden keep?  Who knows.  But the possibility of that is why I let him kill the archdemon.

[Axterix]

Neo_Wolf wrote...

As for Allistair.. those best in positions of power are those who do not seek them. Allisatir would rather do anything than be king, which likely means he would make a good king. I put him on the throne as loghains daughters husband.. it was Maric and Rowan all over again.

It takes considerably more than not wanting to be king to be a good king.  Especially if said person doesn't want to lead and spends all his time moping about daddy issues. 

You need ability first.  Taking someone who won't be power hungry from the pool of able candidates?  Yeah, probably a good idea.  But make sure you're picking someone who won't run the country into the ground first.

[Mystranna Kelteel]

Axterix wrote...

Thing is, Loghain is extremely loyal to Ferelden.  To the point that he'd let the son of his best friend die to protect it.

He was "loyal" to the point of starting a civil war, poisoning his peers because they might have disagreed with his treason, murdering and  torturing the children of his other peers, and selling the kingdom's own citizens into slavery.
Yeah, he was mistaken at first in not believing it was a blight, but as time went by and the blight became the obvious threat, what did he do? Well, first, he saw that his own civil war was costing money, so he sold his people into slavery to try and rectify his own mistake. Then, he decided Orlais was still the threat and endangered Ferelden further with his own denial of the truth. Don't forget, the first thing he says to the PC at the Landsmeet is an accusation that you're going to put Orlais on the throne.
In short, what I'm asking is, was he really loyal to Ferelden? You might be able to argue that he was loyal to the concept of the kingdom, but he certainly was not loyal to the kingdom's people, laws, or government. When his "jury" of peers sides against him, the first thing he does is call them all traitors. He's only serving himself and his own fears all the way to the end. If you call that loyal, well, I don't know what to tell you.

[Valmy]

Mystranna Kelteel wrote...
Not to mention that killing him isn't about "petty revenge", it's about justice and putting an end to his hugely expansive treason. Even Anora knows and says he needs to pay for his crimes, and there's absolutely zero reason to actually trust Loghain in anything.
As soon as he sees Leliana he might go off on a tear and kill her or something for being Orlesian, and accuse the PC of once again collaborating to put Orlais on the throne. (I know, I know, he doesn't, but that's meta-gaming knowledge, as I said.) Just saying, the man is not well.

I get this perspective.  I did it because my character knows him as the only other highly ranking noble in Ferelden, his father's colleague, and the Hero of the River Dane.  I just couldn't bring myself to just unceremoniously kill him, he was a national hero.  So I decided to give him one last chance  I did it without even knowing he was a joinable PC and certainly without knowing his prescence would ultimately save my character and Alistair from having to die.  Of course he could have gone insane again and naturally I would have killed him then.  Besides, I figured, we were going to fight the Blight and everybody can agree they are the enemy even paranoid crazy men.

I could forgive Alistair for wanting me to kill him, but I could not forgive him not trusting my judgement or not forgiving me when everything went well.

Modifié par Valmy, 25 novembre 2009 - 06:42 .

[Valmy]

Mystranna Kelteel wrote...
In short, what I'm asking is, was he really loyal to Ferelden? You might be able to argue that he was loyal to the concept of the kingdom, but he certainly was not loyal to the kingdom's people, laws, or government. When his "jury" of peers sides against him, the first thing he does is call them all traitors. He's only serving himself and his own fears all the way to the end. If you call that loyal, well, I don't know what to tell you.

He is a hyper-patriot and all the entails.  He would do anything he could convince himself was in the ultimate service of Ferelden's interests.  Laws, people, and government are secondary to that concern for him.  Naturally that was a fatal weakness unscrupulous people were able to use to play him for their own interests like Howe.

I mean you are perfectly justified in killing him.  I, after all, believed I was essentially doing the same thing.

Modifié par Valmy, 25 novembre 2009 - 06:42 .

[Taleroth]

Axterix wrote...

By the point of the Landsmeet, the blight has grown, it is the biggest threat to Ferelden.  And therefore, he will do what is necessary to end it.

Except for the part where he's absolutely unwilling to capitulate and is still accusing everyone of being foreign spies.  Even at Landsmeet, he still only cares about the Orlesians.  The Blight is just an excuse he's using to consolidate power.

[tmp7704]

One thing about Loghain's role in the story that bugs me is... okay, i get it that Cailan has this idea of possibly inviting Orlesian troops to help fight the Darkspawn. And this idea makes Loghain go "Over my dead body! Better yet, over _your_ dead body, and your soldiers too!"



However, the question is then, how exactly is wiping most of the country military force supposed to help in preventing these evil Orlesians from invading and conquering it, and in beating them back shall they indeed show up? Even ignoring completely the darkspawn roaming the country...



Seriously, this is so unlike what one would expect from a 'military genius', one has to wonder just how that's supposed to make any sense, even in Loghain's own head.

[Axterix]

Mystranna Kelteel wrote...

He was "loyal" to the point of starting a civil war, poisoning his peers because they might have disagreed with his treason, murdering and  torturing the children of his other peers, and selling the kingdom's own citizens into slavery.

The poisoning bit I agree on, especially since it might have been put into motion before the battle.  This was done though to try and avoid a civil war, not start one.  It failed, other lords did start a civil war as a result of his coup.

The torturing and murdering children of his peers he might not have been aware of.  But then, desperate times, the blight was growing.  And this isn't exactly something unique to him.  The player, along the way, has the potential to kill, main, blackmail, manipulate, allow people to be possessed, spare a mage who experimented on your fellow wardens, all in the name of the greater good.  Not to mention sparing murderers just so you can use them.  And even if you went the goodie goodie route, odds are that you killed human soldiers that you could have bypassed, human soldiers you could have used to fight in the final battle, just because you were being thorough in killing everything on the map, getting every bit of xp and loot in the place.

And the rational for selling the elves was that, without the army, they'd all die anyway.  Yeah, not nice, but then, guess what, humans, especially human nobles, frequently aren't nice to elves.  They weren't in the past, they weren't in the present, nor will they be in the future.  In his eyes, it was their death and the death of countless others or their slavery.  He took the lesser of two evils.  And this was in part necessary because others revolved against his regency.

In short, what I'm asking is, was he really loyal to Ferelden? You might be able to argue that he was loyal to the concept of the kingdom, but he certainly was not loyal to the kingdom's people, laws, or government. When his "jury" of peers sides against him, the first thing he does is call them all traitors. He's only serving himself and his own fears all the way to the end. If you call that loyal, well, I don't know what to tell you.

Ever lost the landsmeet?  Your own side right away starts swinging as well.  No duel option there, if I remember correctly.  And the guy giving the order?  The father of a mage who dealt with a demon.  The husband of a wife who protected said demon and whose attempt to circumvent the laws regarding mages set up the situation that allowed the demon to possess the mage to begin with.  None of whom will be punished.  They are on the side that wins, after all. 

But, yes, Loghain is loyal to his view.  His morality has gotten eroded, as he takes one step into darkness after another to back up what he's already decided.  That's why he had to be broken, to lose it all, to see even his daughter reject him, before he can regain clarity.  He had to hit bottom.

I'm not saying I like Logain.  Think the game made him a bit more evil than they should have.  But he is a driven man, one who holds true, and the best general in the land.  Once you defeat him in the Landsmeet, you can use him.

And my character, in the warden tradition, used him.

[Valmy]

tmp7704 wrote...

One thing about Loghain's role in the story that bugs me is... okay, i get it that Cailan has this idea of possibly inviting Orlesian troops to help fight the Darkspawn. And this idea makes Loghain go "Over my dead body! Better yet, over _your_ dead body, and your soldiers too!"

However, the question is then, how exactly is wiping most of the country military force supposed to help in preventing these evil Orlesians from invading and conquering it, and in beating them back shall they indeed show up? Even ignoring completely the darkspawn roaming the country...

Seriously, this is so unlike what one would expect from a 'military genius', one has to wonder just how that's supposed to make any sense, even in Loghain's own head.

Loghain can only do so much since the King holds the ultimate power.  He believed the King was leading the army into defeat and disaster.  He saw his chance to flee and save his army so he took it.  I think he would have preferred to not get the Army killed if he could have helped it.

[Mystranna Kelteel]

Valmy wrote...

Loghain can only do so much since the King holds the ultimate power.  He believed the King was leading the army into defeat and disaster.  He saw his chance to flee and save his army so he took it.  I think he would have preferred to not get the Army killed if he could have helped it.

No, no, no...
Loghain planned the entire retreat and death of Cailan before Ostagar even started... That is a fact. Withdrawing his army was in no way designed to "save them" from the battle at Ostagar.

[Axterix]

Taleroth wrote...

Except for the part where he's absolutely unwilling to capitulate and is still accusing everyone of being foreign spies.  Even at Landsmeet, he still only cares about the Orlesians.  The Blight is just an excuse he's using to consolidate power.

Yes and no.  He does want to stop the blight and needs unity to do it.  But he still holds to his view on the Orlesians.  That revolution was rather bitter and he was at the heart of it.  His hatred runs deep and, quite frankly, it isn't something the current generation could understand (well, except for Alienage elf characters).

I believe he needed to do it his way, to justify what he has done.  If he can defeat the blight, then all the things he did are justified.  But if he cannot, then what has done?  And all for naught.  Pride, ego, his self view, all at work.

[Nial Black-Knee]

Of course anyone can impose their own morality on their character. But to argue/ debate a subject based on your own morality and in doing so denegrate others for doing the same is at best foolish. For you are arguing against your own right to do so.



The main reason that I always execute Loghain is in my mind the simplest and most logical. He usurped the throne. Why he did it, how he did it, or the results of his actions are really immaterial in the larger scheme of how a monarchy is run. Once someone tries to usurp the throne, there is only one logical response. To let him live is bad for the realm. As long as he remains alive he is a threat to the stability of the current king/ queen. He is a ralling point for any dissatisfied factions within the realm. In every like situation in history the winner has executed the loser for this very reason. Some will say that once Loghain is a GW that he is neutralized. I beg to differ. There are two example in the story where Grey Wardens became involved in the politics of the throne. So it is certainly plausable that if you let Loghain live, and he doesn't like the way the current ruler is doing things he could foreseeably make another attempt. You yourself have the option of becoming a GW king. You also can put another Grey Warden on the throne (Alistar) In my mind the good of the realm requires his death. Monarchs through out history have unanimously agreed and made the exact same call. Even when the threat was a lover, son, daughter, sister, best friend or whatever. A good monarch put the stability of his nation above all personal considerations.

[tmp7704]

Axterix wrote...

Yes and no.  He does want to stop the blight and needs unity to do it.  But he still holds to his view on the Orlesians.  That revolution was rather bitter and he was at the heart of it.  His hatred runs deep and, quite frankly, it isn't something the current generation could understand (well, except for Alienage elf characters).

Yes; interesting enough, coming from the alienage origin it is easier to see where Loghain's hate for Orlais comes from. Which makes Loghain's decision to sell these very elves to slavers especially ironic. In some part because it's this very decision that sealed his fate when it came for my elf to make the call.

[Nial Black-Knee]

There is something that has always bothered me. How did the Darkspawn know to attack the tower where the signal was to be lit? Why did Loghain object to stationing the two Gws there, only relenting when the mages offered to make the signal themselves. And the final piece to fit into place. Why the total look of suprise on Loghains face when he saw the beacon burning.



This is either a huge plot hole or Loghain was actively working with the blight.

[Mystranna Kelteel]

If you talk to the tower guard before the battle, he says Loghain's men are down there "securing the lower chambers".

These same "lower chambers" are where the darkspawn get in through. Logically, it seems Loghain "let them in" in some way, or otherwise simply never expected the beacon to be lit because he had planned for it not to be (his men were stationed there to bgin with). The PC and Alistair were probably just more competent than Loghain expected.

[Valmy]

Mystranna Kelteel wrote...

If you talk to the tower guard before the battle, he says Loghain's men are down there "securing the lower chambers".
These same "lower chambers" are where the darkspawn get in through. Logically, it seems Loghain "let them in" in some way, or otherwise simply never expected the beacon to be lit because he had planned for it not to be (his men were stationed there to bgin with). The PC and Alistair were probably just more competent than Loghain expected.

Yeah that is possible...but it just seems too incredible to me that one could really coordinate with the Darkspawn.  I just took it on facevalue that they had just discovered the tunnels and just did not have enough time to investigate and that conversation was just letting you know how all those Darkspawn seemed to magically appear in the tower than evidence of grand conspiracy.

But then maybe you are correct.  It just seems to much of a...ridiculously complex plan with a really huge variable.

[Element CL]

Mystranna Kelteel wrote...

If you talk to the tower guard before the battle, he says Loghain's men are down there "securing the lower chambers".
These same "lower chambers" are where the darkspawn get in through. Logically, it seems Loghain "let them in" in some way, or otherwise simply never expected the beacon to be lit because he had planned for it not to be (his men were stationed there to bgin with). The PC and Alistair were probably just more competent than Loghain expected.

But it's Loghain's men who meet you at the gate during the attack and warn you about it.  They also help you get to the top and defeat the boss.