307 réponses à ce sujet

[Valmy]

Nial Black-Knee wrote...

There is something that has always bothered me. How did the Darkspawn know to attack the tower where the signal was to be lit? Why did Loghain object to stationing the two Gws there, only relenting when the mages offered to make the signal themselves. And the final piece to fit into place. Why the total look of suprise on Loghains face when he saw the beacon burning.

This is either a huge plot hole or Loghain was actively working with the blight.

They didn't they attacked at the same time the other Darkspawn force attacked on the surface.  How could Loghain have even communicated with the Darkspawn to tell them his plan?  Also they did not attack when the beacon was supposed to be lit they were pretty well established inside by the time you got there.

[Valmy]

Mystranna Kelteel wrote...
Loghain planned the entire retreat and death of Cailan before Ostagar even started... That is a fact. Withdrawing his army was in no way designed to "save them" from the battle at Ostagar.

Is that a fact?  Does he explicitely say so?  I am coming around to this perspective I just want to know why you think it was a fact.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Apophis2412 wrote...

""I will also argue  that "from the perspective of the delusional schizophrenic", he might "have to" cut off his own
arm in order to avoid being spied on by aliens. Doesn't mean doing it is actually right or necessary.

Loghain's actions were right from his perspective. His only flaw was his irrational phobia of Orlais.
If Loghain had been tried in a modern court of law he would not been have been convicted for murder, etc, but merely considered 'not accountable for his own actions.'

Except that NO ONE cares for the crazy murderes perspective. I couldn't care less what he thought or how right he belived he was, neither would any victim and their relatives.
If he wasn't right in the eyes of the court/populace/church, then he should hang by his balls.

[Herr Uhl]

Mystranna Kelteel wrote...

If you talk to the tower guard before the battle, he says Loghain's men are down there "securing the lower chambers".
These same "lower chambers" are where the darkspawn get in through. Logically, it seems Loghain "let them in" in some way, or otherwise simply never expected the beacon to be lit because he had planned for it not to be (his men were stationed there to bgin with). The PC and Alistair were probably just more competent than Loghain expected.

I don't see how he could consort with the darkspawn. They have at least limited tactical ability, so them trying to get into an accessible part of a fortress is very plausible to me.

Thinking that he "lured" the darkspawn is ludicrous to me.

[Valmy]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
If he wasn't right in the eyes of the court/populace/church, then he should hang by his balls.

And what better way to even begin to repay them then die in their defense?

[Element CL]

Valmy wrote...

Mystranna Kelteel wrote...
Loghain planned the entire retreat and death of Cailan before Ostagar even started... That is a fact. Withdrawing his army was in no way designed to "save them" from the battle at Ostagar.

Is that a fact?  Does he explicitely say so?  I am coming around to this perspective I just want to know why you think it was a fact.

I think it was more likely an option he had was planning on having to take.  An option that would be based on what King Cailin did before the battle started.  Remember he DID, tell the king he was foolish for fighting on the front lines like everyone else, suggesting that whatever the plan was, he would have rather been able to spare him.  

Also, I suspect Archdemons are intelligent enough to distinguish buildings, and battlefield strategic buldings, from scenery.  He could have easily just sent the darkspawn to the tower based on that alone.

[Mystranna Kelteel]

Valmy wrote...

Is that a fact?  Does he explicitely say so?  I am coming around to this perspective I just want to know why you think it was a fact.

The evidence:
1) the attack on Highever was before Ostagar
2) Loghain poisons Arl Eamon to prevent him from raising Alistair as a challenge to the throne. And Ser Donal in the Lothering Chantry says the Arl was poisoned before the king died, meaning it was all premeditated and planned for the King not to survive the battle.


As for the beacon and the darkspawn. The two guys who join you are 1) a tower guard (the same tower guard who was guarding the gate earlier and had no tie with Loghain's men; he says so himself. He even says he didn't even know there were lower chambers), and a circle mage who isn't working with Loghain (though if you're a mage yourself you get another nameless guard instead).
I'm not suggesting Loghain "communicated" with the darkspawn and let them in. I assumed he had his men create openings in those lower chambers that may have been blocked off before, letting the darkspawn in indirectly when they attacked Ostagar.

Modifié par Mystranna Kelteel, 25 novembre 2009 - 08:58 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

Melichai wrote...
Loghain is no more or less evil than Duncan. They are both men who have a goal and will do anything to accomplish it. Calling one evil, and then making excuses for the other whilst at the same time making grand statements about how funny definitions of evil are is a bit puzzling. 

Bollocks. You can't even compare the two.

Duncan isn't the nicest person in the world, but he CARES. He doesn'f force things he absolutely doesn't have to. He feels remorese for every questionable thing he had to do. You should also notice that Jory pulled out his sword first. Duncan isn't a paragon of goodness, but he is worthy of far mrer respect than Loghain can ever hope for.

[Valmy]

While it is pretty convincing it is mostly circumstantial I was just wondering if there is anywhere he explains it.



As an aside it is pretty cool they do not explictely explain things in alot of places so we can end up debating and picking them apart like this.



I guess the question would be why did Loghain plan this and when? Did Howe get to him and push him in that direction to further his own ambitions by playing on his fear of Orlais or did Loghain go crazy first and Howe simply took advantage. The reaction his daughter suggests he went noticeably crazy only after the battle. Ser Cautherien's loyalty is rather surprising also if it was very obvious he was losing his grip on reality.



I noticed in the scene where Howe hires Zevran Loghain looks ashamed or uncomfortable with what is going on. It makes me think Howe is the primary mastermind behind all of this. I wonder what the whole story was.

[Herr Uhl]

That kind of planning is a little over the top, he could just tell Cailan that he is going to light the beacon with his men and not having them light it if he didn't want it lit.



Unless he somehow anticipated the king sending grey wardens, in which case killing them with your top men would suffice and be far more reliable than hoping for the off chance that darkspawn will infest the entire tower.

[Valmy]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Duncan isn't the nicest person in the world, but he CARES. He doesn'f force things he absolutely doesn't have to. He feels remorese for every questionable thing he had to do. You should also notice that Jory pulled out his sword first. Duncan isn't a paragon of goodness, but he is worthy of far mrer respect than Loghain can ever hope for.

Well Loghain certainly cares enough to feel remorse and sacrifice himself.  Does that not enter into your calculus at all?

Granted Duncan is far more of a sympathetic character and, IMO, was simply doing his job when he killed Jory according to the expectations put forth to him by the Grey Wardens.  He apologized for having to do it.  I am not saying they are equal in any sense.

[Nial Black-Knee]

Herr Uhl wrote...

Mystranna Kelteel wrote...

If you talk to the tower guard before the battle, he says Loghain's men are down there "securing the lower chambers".
These same "lower chambers" are where the darkspawn get in through. Logically, it seems Loghain "let them in" in some way, or otherwise simply never expected the beacon to be lit because he had planned for it not to be (his men were stationed there to bgin with). The PC and Alistair were probably just more competent than Loghain expected.

I don't see how he could consort with the darkspawn. They have at least limited tactical ability, so them trying to get into an accessible part of a fortress is very plausible to me.

Thinking that he "lured" the darkspawn is ludicrous to me.

I didn't say he did. I said it appeared so. The darkspawn dug up through tons of rock and stone, and just happened to come out in the most strategicly sensitive area of the fortress. The area that was lightly guarded by Loghains men, whose commander argued against stationing more men there. And acted suprised when the beacon was lit.  Thats pretty heavy coincidence.

It could certainly be a plot hole too. But it doesn't make sense. No where else in the game are the darkspawn sneaky that I remember.

Modifié par Nial Black-Knee, 25 novembre 2009 - 09:12 .

[Mystranna Kelteel]

Herr Uhl wrote...

That kind of planning is a little over the top, he could just tell Cailan that he is going to light the beacon with his men and not having them light it if he didn't want it lit.

It was my impression that that's exactly what he did. He does try to convince Cailan to not send the Wardens into the tower because it's an easy task and his men are stationed there.
Whether or not Loghain planned specifically for the darkspawn to enter the tower of Ishal is the only real ambiguous point, and it doesn't really matter. I'm sure Loghain's men would have tried to prevent you from lighting the beacon had the darkspawn not broken through.
Also, as we plainly saw, whether or not the beacon was lit doesn't even matter for Loghain's plan in the end. He still withdrew. The act only raised a few eyebrows and placed a small measure of doubt on people like Cauthrien.

[supakillaii]

tmp7704 wrote...
However, the question is then, how exactly is wiping most of the country military force supposed to help in preventing these evil Orlesians from invading and conquering it, and in beating them back shall they indeed show up? Even ignoring completely the darkspawn roaming the country...

The Grey Warden "Main HQ" of sorts is in Ostagar, and he believes that the Wardens of Ostagar wish to claim Ferelden.

[Herr Uhl]

Nial Black-Knee wrote...

It could certainly be a plot hole too. But it doesn't make sense. No where else in the game are the darkspawn sneaky that I remember.

I remember the codex where they tunnel in the deep roads, circumventing dwarven defenses. They are good at making tunnels.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Element CL wrote...

Plus, consider this, when he loses the battle against you or your "champion' rather then become a sniveling little sore loser crybaby, he admits underestimating you and accepts defeat and his consequences. If you show him mercy, Allistair cant handle that, and runs away to his mommy to cry.

I don't know, I'll take a capable warmonger over a incompotent little prince baby with an MTV hairdo any day.

Waht the hell is it with people who think if a man shows any emotion other than anger that he is a wuss. OMG, a man having feelings???? EMO!! EMO!!

Really, how disconnected from reality must such people be? Allistairs reaction was haw a perfectly normal, rational, healthy human being would normally react.

[EmperorSahlertz]

If any of you ever bothered speaking to Anora after saving her (and getting yourself out of Fort Drakon), she will tell you how she suspects that much of the recent events are not her father's doing, but in fact Howe's. Loghain needed Howe's political mind if he wanted the Bannorn to side with him against the Orlesians, and Loghain believed he could control Howe.
The attack on the Couslands may very well just be Howe havin moved himself into a posistion where he stood to gain land and still be supported by the Bannorn, if they would believe the "They were Orlesian sympathizers" story he had cooked up.
Anora also suspects that the death of Cailen was not planned until the very night of the Batlle of Ostagar, as Loghain had tried for a long time to convince the King to defeat the Darkspawn with his own forces.

In short: it is NOT a fact it was a planned coup on Loghain's side..

Modifié par EmperorSahlertz, 25 novembre 2009 - 09:24 .

[tmp7704]

supakillaii wrote...

The Grey Warden "Main HQ" of sorts is in Ostagar, and he believes that the Wardens of Ostagar wish to claim Ferelden.

But to my understanding there's just a handful of Wardens present in Ferelden at this point, and if Orlesian invasion was to happen then it would be regular troops in large numbers carrying out that part. So if Loghain wipes bulk of his own forces just to eliminate these few Wardens... well, i'm afraid it doesn't really remove the stupid from his approach in my eyes.

[Akka le Vil]

Axterix wrote...

Thing is, Loghain is extremely loyal to Ferelden.  To the point that he'd let the son of his best friend die to protect it.

He's so loyal to Ferelden that he destroys its military might when faced with a real invasion and imagining another one, start a civil war and abandon the whole south of the country to the darkspawn. That's certainly a very weird way to show loyalty.

[Nial Black-Knee]

Herr Uhl wrote...

Nial Black-Knee wrote...

It could certainly be a plot hole too. But it doesn't make sense. No where else in the game are the darkspawn sneaky that I remember.

I remember the codex where they tunnel in the deep roads, circumventing dwarven defenses. They are good at making tunnels.

Good point. But again, what are the odds that they accidentaly emerge into the most strategicly sensitive spot of the fortress? I guess it could just be dumb luck. But they do seem to be guarding the tower. Not attacking the rear of the lines. There really aren't enough of them in the tower to do much. Though discounting any sized force in ones rear is a recipe for an operational disaster. It all just seemed too pat to me. The hardest part to believe is that Loghain would have any way to contact or communicate with the darkspawn.

[tmp7704]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

If any of you ever bothered speaking to Anora after saving her (and getting yourself out of Fort Drakon), she will tell you how she suspects that much of the recent events are not her father's doing, but in fact Howe's.

Anora idealizes her father to the point she builds him a statue even after his execution, and she never gets married as Queen claiming none of suitors were up to the standard her father was. In other words, she isn't exactly unbiased observer. Besides in the Landsmeet Loghain doesn't deny being responsible for the deeds you can throw at him, he merely justifies them in one way or another.

[Mystranna Kelteel]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

If any of you ever bothered speaking to Anora after saving her (and getting yourself out of Fort Drakon), she will tell you how she suspects that much of the recent events are not her father's doing, but in fact Howe's. Loghain needed Howe's political mind if he wanted the Bannorn to side with him against the Orlesians, and Loghain believed he could control Howe.
The attack on the Couslands may very well just be Howe havin moved himself into a posistion where he stood to gain land and still be supported by the Bannorn, if they would believe the "They were Orlesian sympathizers" story he had cooked up.
Anora also suspects that the death of Cailen was not planned until the very night of the Batlle of Ostagar, as Loghain had tried for a long time to convince the King to defeat the Darkspawn with his own forces.

In short: it is NOT a fact it was a planned coup on Loghain's side..

I did talk to her. What you just said is pretty much pure BS at worst and extreme speculation at best.
What Anora says when you ask her if Loghain planned Cailan's death is, and I quote, "I'm not sure. I had no inkling of my father's plans until Cailan was already dead." Then she makes a complete guess starting with the words, "I'd like to think..."

Modifié par Mystranna Kelteel, 25 novembre 2009 - 09:36 .

[Akka le Vil]

Nial Black-Knee wrote...

Good point. But again, what are the odds that they accidentaly emerge into the most strategicly sensitive spot of the fortress? I guess it could just be dumb luck. But they do seem to be guarding the tower. Not attacking the rear of the lines. There really aren't enough of them in the tower to do much. Though discounting any sized force in ones rear is a recipe for an operational disaster. It all just seemed too pat to me. The hardest part to believe is that Loghain would have any way to contact or communicate with the darkspawn.

Actually, they ARE spilling out of the tower. But you're in the way and kill them.
I think it was simply for plot effect, honestly. To have a reason why the hero isn't dead with the rest of the army, to witness Loghain's treason and to still have some fights to do.

[Herr Uhl]

Nial Black-Knee wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...

Nial Black-Knee wrote...

It could certainly be a plot hole too. But it doesn't make sense. No where else in the game are the darkspawn sneaky that I remember.

I remember the codex where they tunnel in the deep roads, circumventing dwarven defenses. They are good at making tunnels.

Good point. But again, what are the odds that they accidentaly emerge into the most strategicly sensitive spot of the fortress? I guess it could just be dumb luck. But they do seem to be guarding the tower. Not attacking the rear of the lines. There really aren't enough of them in the tower to do much. Though discounting any sized force in ones rear is a recipe for an operational disaster. It all just seemed too pat to me. The hardest part to believe is that Loghain would have any way to contact or communicate with the darkspawn.

They have just secured the tower, started to send out darkspawn. They probably plan to take the fortress from the inside and securing it, forces there are scarce. And there are just that many darkspawn that fits through one tunnel. A feint is not out of the picture since they have an archdemon on their side.

Maybe just overrating the intelligence of darkspawn though.

[Taleroth]

Mystranna Kelteel wrote...

Valmy wrote...

Is that a fact?  Does he explicitely say so?  I am coming around to this perspective I just want to know why you think it was a fact.

The evidence:
1) the attack on Highever was before Ostagar
2) Loghain poisons Arl Eamon to prevent him from raising Alistair as a challenge to the throne. And Ser Donal in the Lothering Chantry says the Arl was poisoned before the king died, meaning it was all premeditated and planned for the King not to survive the battle.


As for the beacon and the darkspawn. The two guys who join you are 1) a tower guard (the same tower guard who was guarding the gate earlier and had no tie with Loghain's men; he says so himself. He even says he didn't even know there were lower chambers), and a circle mage who isn't working with Loghain (though if you're a mage yourself you get another nameless guard instead).
I'm not suggesting Loghain "communicated" with the darkspawn and let them in. I assumed he had his men create openings in those lower chambers that may have been blocked off before, letting the darkspawn in indirectly when they attacked Ostagar.

About the Tower.  Let's not forget that Loghain's plan was to have his own men light the tower.  And Uldred, who was in cahoots with Loghain, was also trying to get to be in charge.  Likely a play to get it back in Loghain's hands after Cailin decided it would be the Wardens with the task.

So, from all sides Loghain was vying for position to put his own men in control of the tower.

Modifié par Taleroth, 25 novembre 2009 - 09:36 .