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[EmperorSahlertz]

Mystranna Kelteel wrote...
I did talk to her. What you just said is pretty much pure BS at worst and extreme speculation at best.
What Anora says when you ask her if Loghain planned Cailan's death is, and I quote, "I'm not sure. I had no inkling of my father's plans until Cailan was already dead." Then she makes a complete guess starting with the words, "I'd like to think..."

The same way you are making a guess that it actually was planned ahead by Loghain? Nowhere in the game is there any proof of your accusation, and not once does Loghain admit to planning ahead. It is as much specualtion that it was planned, as if it werent. I'll give you that it is more likely that it was planned, but none the less, we will never know for sure.

[Mystranna Kelteel]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

The same way you are making a guess that it actually was planned ahead by Loghain? Nowhere in the game is there any proof of your accusation, and not once does Loghain admit to planning ahead. It is as much specualtion that it was planned, as if it werent. I'll give you that it is more likely that it was planned, but none the less, we will never know for sure.

The evidence shows it being planned. The only evidence that raises any doubt at all is the word of Anora, who is not only biased because Loghain is her father, but also completely guessing as to what might have happened.

Loghain was responsible for the poisoning of Arl Eamon, not Howe. At the Landsmeet, when the chantry lady says that interfering with a Templar's sacred duty is an offense unto the Maker, Loghain says something along the lines of "The Maker will judge me of my crimes.", which is pretty much a full on admission of his guilt and involvement with the assassination attempt of Arl Eamon, which happened before the battle of Ostagar.

I guess calling it a "fact" might not be "technically" true, but the evidence is overpowering.

[Taleroth]

We also know that Loghain was making promises to Uldred against the Chantry very very early. Uldred has already attacked the tower by the time you reach Lothering.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Miguelitosoyyo wrote...
              - First and most important one is that it's inmoral. Killing a person no matter why is evil. Obviously the more people you kill the worse it is. But I hope you agree that killing one single person is horrible and makes the killer a murderer. Even if the one you kill is a psycho you're still a murderer.

             - Sencond one is that it's irreversible. If you kill someone as penalty for one or many crimes and later on that person turns to be innocent you can't resurrect him/her and using your sense of justice you should be the one killed next for killing an innocent person.

If you want to get technical, the Bible sez "Thou shall not MURDER." Not kill.
I find the death penalty acceptable for those who comitted great attrocities, whos guilt is proven beyobnd a shadow of doubt and are dangerous and show no regreat or empathy.

[Herr Uhl]

Well, Uldred was at Ostagar though. So that could have been planned later on.

[Valmy]

Taleroth wrote...

We also know that Loghain was making promises to Uldred against the Chantry very very early. Uldred has already attacked the tower by the time you reach Lothering.

I thought he had simply promised to help Uldred be First Enchanter.  That is crazy to think Loghain wanted to overturn the Chantry and restore an order or rule by blood mages like old Imperium.

I mean that is going a bit too far surely.

[EmperorSahlertz]

I'm not saying that Loghain didn't have something planned, I'm just saying we can't be certain that the death Cailan was a part of it. The assassination of Eamon might be a ploy for Loghain to blame on the Orlesians so that Cailan wouldn't accept their aid, and perhaps even start hate them. Speculation I know, but still my point stands, the regicide was perhaps not planned at all.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Valmy wrote...

Taleroth wrote...

We also know that Loghain was making promises to Uldred against the Chantry very very early. Uldred has already attacked the tower by the time you reach Lothering.

I thought he had simply promised to help Uldred be First Enchanter.  That is crazy to think Loghain wanted to overturn the Chantry and restore an order or rule by blood mages like old Imperium.

I mean that is going a bit too far surely.

I believe Uldred was a libratist (or whatever that faction called themselves) and just wanted to be rid of Chantry control, that he was a blood mage was unknown to all, so Loghain can't be blamed for promising to support Uldred becomming First Enchanter.

[Taleroth]

Valmy wrote...

Taleroth wrote...

We also know that Loghain was making promises to Uldred against the Chantry very very early. Uldred has already attacked the tower by the time you reach Lothering.

I thought he had simply promised to help Uldred be First Enchanter.  That is crazy to think Loghain wanted to overturn the Chantry and restore an order or rule by blood mages like old Imperium.

I mean that is going a bit too far surely.

All I know is he promised to relieve the Mages of their Chantry supervision if they supported him.  Uldred's attempt to take over the tower was to ensure their support for Loghain.  I won't say that Loghain knew about Uldred's methodology.

But he did do it the absolute second he returned from Ostagar, so it would have to have been planned then.  This indicates a measure of pre-meditation.  I have a hard time believing that Loghain sat down with Uldred after Ostagar to try to get his support, but it's possible.  But the timing is pretty quick.

[Mystranna Kelteel]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

I'm not saying that Loghain didn't have something planned, I'm just saying we can't be certain that the death Cailan was a part of it. The assassination of Eamon might be a ploy for Loghain to blame on the Orlesians so that Cailan wouldn't accept their aid, and perhaps even start hate them. Speculation I know, but still my point stands, the regicide was perhaps not planned at all.

Arl Eamon being assassinated was directly part of the plan because Eamon could have claimed rights to the throne, either by his blood relation to Rowan, or through Alistair. Trying to assassinate Eamon is completely random unless you consider the throne ascension scenario, which is meaningless unless Cailan's death was planned.

[Herr Uhl]

As stated before, Uldred could not have been known being a blood mage and abomination. I was kind of a liberalist myself, so the action in itself is not the same as wanting blood mages and abominations running amok.

He (probably) wants to use the mages to a greater extent in battle. But the chantry would not allow it as things were then.

Modifié par Herr Uhl, 25 novembre 2009 - 10:09 .

[Valmy]

Mystranna Kelteel wrote...
Arl Eamon being assassinated was directly part of the plan because Eamon could have claimed rights to the throne, either by his blood relation to Rowan, or through Alistair.

I agree on the being the Grandfather of the King bit but there is no way Loghain could have known about Alistair and not have taken care of him if he was going to go through the trouble of killing Eamon.

[Taleroth]

Valmy wrote...

I agree on the being the Grandfather of the King bit but there is no way Loghain could have known about Alistair and not have taken care of him if he was going to go through the trouble of killing Eamon.

You think he didn't try?  He caused the death of the rest of the Grey Wardens.  He put a bounty on survivors.  One theory posited here is that he arranged for Darkspawn to be in the tower Alistair was trying to light.

Oh yes, he tried.

[Valmy]

Taleroth wrote...
You think he didn't try?  He caused the death of the rest of the Grey Wardens.  He put a bounty on survivors.  One theory posited here is that he arranged for Darkspawn to be in the tower Alistair was trying to light.

Oh yes, he tried.

Um...Alistair was standing his camp completely unmolested for days while Duncan was gone.  He is one guy.  Loghain could have easily poisoned him or done something else in all that time when simultaneously he was having Eamon, whose claim to the throne is much weaker, desposed of?  That makes no sense. 

He tried to get rid of the Grey Wardens but he doesn't seem to know that one of them has a claim to the throne.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Mystranna Kelteel wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

I'm not saying that Loghain didn't have something planned, I'm just saying we can't be certain that the death Cailan was a part of it. The assassination of Eamon might be a ploy for Loghain to blame on the Orlesians so that Cailan wouldn't accept their aid, and perhaps even start hate them. Speculation I know, but still my point stands, the regicide was perhaps not planned at all.

Arl Eamon being assassinated was directly part of the plan because Eamon could have claimed rights to the throne, either by his blood relation to Rowan, or through Alistair. Trying to assassinate Eamon is completely random unless you consider the throne ascension scenario, which is meaningless unless Cailan's death was planned.

Killing Cailan's favorite uncle and somehow planting false evidence that the Orelesians was behind it random? It would be brilliantly done! Then only Eamon  would have to die, and it would spare half the army, Cailan AND the Fereldan Grey Wardens.

[Herr Uhl]

Taleroth wrote...

Valmy wrote...

I agree on the being the Grandfather of the King bit but there is no way Loghain could have known about Alistair and not have taken care of him if he was going to go through the trouble of killing Eamon.

You think he didn't try?  He caused the death of the rest of the Grey Wardens.  He put a bounty on survivors.  One theory posited here is that he arranged for Darkspawn to be in the tower Alistair was trying to light.

Oh yes, he tried.

So he planned for him to be killed in the tower that he didn't want to send him to by something that can't be reasoned with, and probably came there on it's own accord.

If that is true, he is truly a magnificent bastard.

[Sarethus]

Taleroth wrote...

Valmy wrote...

Taleroth wrote...

We also know that Loghain was making promises to Uldred against the Chantry very very early. Uldred has already attacked the tower by the time you reach Lothering.

I thought he had simply promised to help Uldred be First Enchanter.  That is crazy to think Loghain wanted to overturn the Chantry and restore an order or rule by blood mages like old Imperium.

I mean that is going a bit too far surely.

All I know is he promised to relieve the Mages of their Chantry supervision if they supported him.  Uldred's attempt to take over the tower was to ensure their support for Loghain.  I won't say that Loghain knew about Uldred's methodology.

But he did do it the absolute second he returned from Ostagar, so it would have to have been planned then.  This indicates a measure of pre-meditation.  I have a hard time believing that Loghain sat down with Uldred after Ostagar to try to get his support, but it's possible.  But the timing is pretty quick.

Agreed. I find it next to impossible that Loghain met Uldred after Ostagar because Uldred even beat Wynn in returning to the tower so their alliance had to be worked out before hand. 

[Mystranna Kelteel]

Valmy wrote...

I agree on the being the Grandfather of the King bit but there is no way Loghain could have known about Alistair and not have taken care of him if he was going to go through the trouble of killing Eamon.

Alistair had already been a Grey Warden for 6 months (irrc). Loghain did know about Alistair, but what could have been done about it before Ostagar when Alistair bcame a Grey Warden? Maybe an assassination attempt, but that would likely have been too bold and too risky. Eamon and Highever were done close enough to the Battle of Ostagar so as to not look too suspicious by the time word traveled.

Eamon was Cailan's uncle, though, and sitting in Redcliffe. He was an easy target, hence the assassination attempt. Even without Alistair, Eamon could have gone after the throne and rallied the nobles under himself instead of Loghain.

[Taleroth]

Valmy wrote...

Taleroth wrote...
You think he didn't try?  He caused the death of the rest of the Grey Wardens.  He put a bounty on survivors.  One theory posited here is that he arranged for Darkspawn to be in the tower Alistair was trying to light.

Oh yes, he tried.

Um...Alistair was standing his camp completely unmolested for days while Duncan was gone.  He is one guy.  Loghain could have easily poisoned him or done something else in all that time when simultaneously he was having Eamon, whose claim to the throne is much weaker, desposed of?  That makes no sense. 

He tried to get rid of the Grey Wardens but he doesn't seem to know that one of them has a claim to the throne.

Oh yes, he could have had Alistair attacked inside the encampment.  That wouldn't have raised suspicion at all.

I do believe I've read that you can actually talk to Loghain about Alistair after he joins you.  I don't know the specifics, but it does reveal whether or not he knew.  I thought I recalled someone saying that he did.

[Mystranna Kelteel]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Killing Cailan's favorite uncle and somehow planting false evidence that the Orelesians was behind it random? It would be brilliantly done! Then only Eamon  would have to die, and it would spare half the army, Cailan AND the Fereldan Grey Wardens.

Yeah, considering that Orlais was in no way involved or under suspicion of involvement, that is completely random. Why the hell would Oralis want to kill one single nobleman of Ferelden? Loghain isn't trying to start a war with Orlais, he's trying to keep them the hell out. This makes no sense...

[EmperorSahlertz]

Well Alistair himself says that Loghain probably knows since Maric was his best friend. Come to think of it, speaking with Loghain he also admits that he knew about Alistair.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Mystranna Kelteel wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Killing Cailan's favorite uncle and somehow planting false evidence that the Orelesians was behind it random? It would be brilliantly done! Then only Eamon  would have to die, and it would spare half the army, Cailan AND the Fereldan Grey Wardens.

Yeah, considering that Orlais was in no way involved or under suspicion of involvement, that is completely random. Why the hell would Oralis want to kill one single nobleman of Ferelden? Loghain isn't trying to start a war with Orlais, he's trying to keep them the hell out. This makes no sense...

Because this single nobleman was one of the rebelious nobles who overthrew the Orlesians in Ferelden? Because they want to destabalize the country prior to an invasion? There are several reasons the Orlesians would assainate several nobles in Ferelden.

[Valmy]

Taleroth wrote...
Oh yes, he could have had Alistair attacked inside the encampment.  That wouldn't have raised suspicion at all

Huh...but he was already attacking Eamon...why would he be cautious here...

Well anyway if he knew about Alistair he simply messed up I guess.

[Mystranna Kelteel]

Eamon had been sent north during the events of the Stolen Throne. He had absolutely nothing to do with the rebellion.

Either way, I'm not going to argue a "hypothetical" of how Loghain could have assassinated Eamon better... It's pointless.



Alistair was a Grey Warden at Ostagar. The Grey Wardens at Ostagar were to charge with the King. That was part of Loghain's plan. Hence, Alistair's death was planned until Maric sent them into Ishal and screwed up Loghain's plans a little.

[Taleroth]

Valmy wrote...

Taleroth wrote...
Oh yes, he could have had Alistair attacked inside the encampment.  That wouldn't have raised suspicion at all

Huh...but he was already attacking Eamon...why would he be cautious here...

Well anyway if he knew about Alistair he simply messed up I guess.

Eamon was on the entire other side of Fereldan.