And let's not forget both of her awesome betrayals, I still can't make any sense of what her motives wereSerogon wrote...
Saurel wrote...
owl208 wrote...
She was real broken up about her husband's death....
Who wouldn't be upset? Its basically like losing a more Goofy and aloof version of Alistair.
Ummm, that was sarcasm. He meant that she wasn't even remotely saddened by it.
Fulgrim88 wrote...
You don't do him justice by calling him a douche..he's not like Howe, after all (and it would have been much clearer if it wasn't for that out-of-character slaver part). He certainly doesn't enjoy being mean, or does it for his personal gain (for those who see african dictatorship here)
He does what he feels necessary and is both willing and able to live with the consequences. A rare trait. If you look at history, there has been done equally much harm by rulers afraid of decisions, than by rulers like Loghain. Talk to the weak king Cailan at the beginning, when playing a City Elf. He's not even half aware of the problems in the Alienage. He might look shiny in his golden armour, but things might have gone just as bad with him in command, if not worse.
Theres not even a proof, that Ostagar would have been a clear victory if it wasn't for Loghains retreat.
There should have been a more in-depth explanation why he did what he did. It pretty much came down to a *shrug* and a "well i hate Orlais that much", which might be linked to his madness, but wasted a great deal of the "mixed feelings" you're supposed to have for him
Err...Fulgrim88 wrote...
You don't do him justice by calling him a douche..he's not like Howe, after all (and it would have been much clearer if it wasn't for that out-of-character slaver part). He certainly doesn't enjoy being mean, or does it for his personal gain (for those who see african dictatorship here)
He does what he feels necessary and is both willing and able to live with the consequences.
Fulgrim88 wrote...
What if protecting the majority can only be achieved by sacrificing a few.
He does care about Ferelden and its people (to the point of obsession, actually), but he's aware that hard times demand hard decisions
Really? I got the impression from that dialogue that it was all talk, no action. He'd probably have forgotten the issue by the end of the battle, completely soaked up in heroism. In Cailan-world, ugly parts don't fit;)Sarethus wrote...
Thing about Cailan is that it was clear that he at least was willing to take steps to fix the issue and found that it happened reprehensible. I honestly doubt many humans for that matter are aware of the problems in an elven alienage and those that are just shrug them off as as "elves, not our problem" or "elves deserve it".
Cailan for all his faults was a good person at least (if not the best king). I got the impression that he would have improved slowly and become better at being a king as well (His standing up to Loghain was a step in the right direction.)
You got a point there. As i said, much of the "Book Loghain" (the one i'm mainly fond of and talking about) is lost to the game. I don't know why they did it, or if it's just the overall perception you get as a player (as you're not aware of the thoughts & motives of everyone, like in a book, but limited to your own, narrow point of view), but it's kinda sad and one of the few "flaws" of the story, for meAkka le Vil wrote...
Err...Fulgrim88 wrote...
You don't do him justice by calling him a douche..he's not like Howe, after all (and it would have been much clearer if it wasn't for that out-of-character slaver part). He certainly doesn't enjoy being mean, or does it for his personal gain (for those who see african dictatorship here)
He does what he feels necessary and is both willing and able to live with the consequences.
No ?
What he does makes no sense at all. He may be SAID to do "what he feels is right", but it's just so ridiculous that it is not believable.
Loghain is a mish-mash of a mess. His acts can only be explained by total incompetence and a raw attempt to seize power. What the game claims and what we actually see just doesn't compute.
Mystranna Kelteel wrote...
Don't forget that Cailan said his guards don't allow him to go to the alienage. I'm sure he wants to. He cares about his people, whether he's a "good political leader" or not.
Apophis2412 wrote...
Loghain on the other hand is real leader figure.He knows hoe to win peoples hearts and rally them to his cause.
Mystranna Kelteel wrote...
Apophis2412 wrote...
Loghain on the other hand is real leader figure.He knows hoe to win peoples hearts and rally them to his cause.
He sure does. Poison dissenters, murder others, torture their children to get them to fall in line and sell the rest into slavery!
Modifié par Mystranna Kelteel, 22 novembre 2009 - 08:56 .
Mystranna Kelteel wrote...
I argue that those actions did not have to be made...
You can hide behind that excuse it you wish, but there was no need to sell the elves into slavery to fight Orlais. Orlais wasn't even a threat. There was no need to torture the children of the arls. There was no need to poison Eamon.
Unless the "need" was to keep himself (Loghain) in power, which it was. That's tyranny, folks.
Apophis2412 wrote...
Mystranna Kelteel wrote...
I argue that those actions did not have to be made...
You can hide behind that excuse it you wish, but there was no need to sell the elves into slavery to fight Orlais. Orlais wasn't even a threat. There was no need to torture the children of the arls. There was no need to poison Eamon.
Unless the "need" was to keep himself (Loghain) in power, which it was. That's tyranny, folks.
That Orlais was no real threat is irrelevant to this discussion. In Loghain's mind it was. If one looks at it from Loghain's perspective than his actions make much more sense. All of his actions are guided by his hatred of Orlais. First we have Calain who was willing to hand Ferelden back to the Orlesians. She the king was not willing to listen to reason he had to go, to ensure that Ferelden would remain free.
Cailain death however caused a civil war. On top of that there was a large Orlesian army on the western border and the Darkspawn were invading from the south. Loghain tried to unify the country by more convential means, but when 'that didn't work he took more extreme actions.
The murder of Eamon and Bryce Cousland was necessary to keep the civil war from becoming a prolonged conflict. The Arl's children werd also tortured to unify the country.
Apophis2412 wrote...
That Orlais was no real threat is irrelevant to this discussion. In Loghain's mind it was. If one looks at it from Loghain's perspective than his actions make much more sense. All of his actions are guided by his hatred of Orlais. First we have Calain who was willing to hand Ferelden back to the Orlesians. She the king was not willing to listen to reason he had to go, to ensure that Ferelden would remain free.
Cailain death however caused a civil war. On top of that there was a large Orlesian army on the western border and the Darkspawn were invading from the south. Loghain tried to unify the country by more convential means, but when 'that didn't work he took more extreme actions.
The murder of Eamon and Bryce Cousland was necessary to keep the civil war from becoming a prolonged conflict. The Arl's children werd also tortured to unify the country.
Modifié par Mystranna Kelteel, 22 novembre 2009 - 08:59 .
Loghain's problem (and why I detest him) is that he's not even willing to consider any options other than what he has decided is "right." He makes no attempts to find solutions that are less harmful. He doesn't care who or what is hurt by his decisions (including himself.) He basically completely lacks compassion and humanity, and that, in my mind, makes him a terrible leader.Fulgrim88 wrote...
He does what he feels necessary and is both willing and able to live with the consequences.
Fulgrim88 wrote...
Really? I got the impression from that dialogue that it was all talk, no action. He'd probably have forgotten the issue by the end of the battle, completely soaked up in heroism. In Cailan-world, ugly parts don't fit;)Sarethus wrote...
Thing about Cailan is that it was clear that he at least was willing to take steps to fix the issue and found that it happened reprehensible. I honestly doubt many humans for that matter are aware of the problems in an elven alienage and those that are just shrug them off as as "elves, not our problem" or "elves deserve it".
Cailan for all his faults was a good person at least (if not the best king). I got the impression that he would have improved slowly and become better at being a king as well (His standing up to Loghain was a step in the right direction.)
But that's just my impression
Loghain's only flaw is not his irrational phobia of Orlais. He has many flaws, but the worst is his lack of concern for the happiness and well-being of anyone (again, including himself.) He's willing to go to any means to accomplish his ends.Apophis2412 wrote...
""I will also argue that "from the perspective of the delusional schizophrenic", he might "have to" cut off his own
arm in order to avoid being spied on by aliens. Doesn't mean doing it is actually right or necessary.
Loghain's actions were right from his perspective. His only flaw was his irrational phobia of Orlais.
If Loghain had been tried in a modern court of law he would not been have been convicted for murder, etc, but merely considered 'not accountable for his own actions.'
Serogon wrote...
It's possible I'm remembering wrong, but weren't the only Orlesians that were coming Grey Wardens? That's hardly handing Ferelden over to them.
Modifié par KalosCast, 22 novembre 2009 - 09:21 .
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