307 réponses à ce sujet

[Melichai]

Well, regardless of your views on the Elven Peoples Front of Fereldan, its worth nothing that there is nothing incompatible between willing to do anything to protect Fereldan and not considering Elves to be *real* Fereldans per the lore of the setting. At least for the humans of Fereldan. The Elves in the alienage are a conquered people, forced to worship a human god, with little rights or status, who are little better than slaves...regardless of where they are or arent sold. Loghain might not be the great liberator, but if he doesnt consider Elven suffering important then he is at worst unremarkable amongst his peers.

If the bigotry in that is bothersome, be comforted that Loghain would probably consider anyone who doesnt toe the line as not being *real* Fereldans. That would be how he would rationalise the need for actions to defend Fereldan, even from its own people.

Modifié par Melichai, 22 novembre 2009 - 06:59 .

[SoulBlazer]

My Alastiar build > Biowares Logain build by far.

[MFCell]

Mystranna Kelteel wrote...

You people who use "they're second class citizens anyway!!" as a justification for slavery are hilarious.

While I loathe to think of someone actually saying that, I think most are simply refering to the face that Loghain uses this as a justification/explanation of his actions when presented with the evidence at the Landsmeet. 

Not that anyone buys it, hah, but he certainly TRIES to tell them that the elves are second class citizens and not worth worrying over.

[Mystranna Kelteel]

Loghain also says that the alienage would be impossible to defend if the Blight came to Denerim.



And during the Siege of Denerim the alienage is held and successfully defended by... 4 individual people. Yeah, Loghain's an idiot.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Akka le Vil wrote...
I think your grasp on morality principles and your reading comprehension are even more puzzling.

I think your self righteous and arrogant attitude, presuming that you can teach people about "morality" or at least A absolutist definition of it (which will always be yours an no one elses), is disturbing.

@ Melichai.
Yes, Loghain and the Grey Wardens (the true ones anyhow) are very similar. Which is why I saw him as the perfect grey warden. Ready to make any sacrifice. Loghain is the perfect grey warden. Alistair is the perfect Templar, with his zealotry.

[Akka le Vil]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

I think your self righteous and arrogant attitude, presuming that you can teach people about "morality" or at least A absolutist definition of it (which will always be yours an no one elses), is disturbing.

More disturbing than considering someone who betrayed his country, killed people by the tens of thousands, tortured and enslaved others, was a "good man" ?

I'll stick to self-righteousness, thanks.

[Mystranna Kelteel]

Akka le Vil wrote...

More disturbing than considering someone who betrayed his country, killed people by the tens of thousands, tortured and enslaved others, was a "good man" ?

I'll stick to self-righteousness, thanks.

Only the self-righteous think slavery is wrong when Loghain does it. I swear some of these people would defend Loghain even if he had committed genocide on every single person in Ferelden. Hey, it's politically efficient! It doesn't matter what happens to them because Loghain successfully united the kingdom!! (by killing everyone).

[Melichai]

Well, while I dont think the topic calls for personal remarks by Akka, I do think its a tribute to Gaider and co that their creations can engender strong feelings over the motivations and actions.



I think the underlying theme for DA:O is that the end justifies the means. Its a view held by both the Grey Wardens and Loghain. Given that ruthlessness underpins both groups I dont think you can start talking about morality. I think the "best" solution from a Grey Warden/defeat the blight point of view is to recruit Loghain and his followers as opposed to simply killing him. Killing him might appease Alister and others need for personal justice, but it doesnt serve the Grey Wardens goal of ending the Blight. Indeed, killing a figure who is still heroic to many Fereldans and a famed general to boot is fairly harmful to the goal of ending the Blight. Loghain is amoral, not evil. Nobody wholly good died at Ostragar. Indeed, Nessa's fear of going to the Army camp doesnt speak for the treatment elves received there. Loghains retreat might be attacked on tactical grounds or perhaps on the basis he should be unthinkingly loyal to a fool of a boy-king, but not on moral grounds. Loghains misfortune after that point is that his retreat is only the first step on a spiral of what he would consider to be "hard decisions" that only he can make.



If anyone would attack him for being arrogant enough to believe he is the only one capable of making the "hard decisions" dont forget he is a legend in his own lifetime precisely because he was able to make the hard decisions, sending men to their deaths so victory could be achieved.



Before I offend anyone, I am not trying to argue Loghain is a misunderstood good guy. Though he might claim he was. He is simply an antagonist. With his own goals, ambitions and values which conflict with the goals, ambitions and values of the Grey Wardens/Player.

[Mystranna Kelteel]

For the sake of argument, if the ends justified the means, Loghain would still be despicable. The ends to his means = a kingdom divided by civil war, with Loghain all by himself yet insisting he is still right.



Killing Loghain brings all his forces under the leadership of the Grey Warden PC. It's not as if killing him divides the forces or the kingdom even further.

[Element CL]

But as a leader and fighter. Allistair fails miserably. Loghain at least gets things done.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Akka le Vil wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

I think your self righteous and arrogant attitude, presuming that you can teach people about "morality" or at least A absolutist definition of it (which will always be yours an no one elses), is disturbing.

More disturbing than considering someone who betrayed his country, killed people by the tens of thousands, tortured and enslaved others, was a "good man" ?

I'll stick to self-righteousness, thanks.

He didn't betray his country. He betrayed his king.
Where did you get the number? Show me where in the game it says that Lohgian killed thousands of his people.
No one is  saying that Loghain was doing the good thing. But he knows that he is mistaken and he is willing to repent. As a great hero, he deserves that chance of redemption.

Meeeh, people hate slavery so much, but don't realise that the world and civilisations they live in are built on slavery. History is built by slavery. So don't make a big fuss out of it. If slavery is productive, then it's justified.
If slavery is what made Egypt, Greece, Rome, Islamic Empires, China, Western Europe, USA...etc into the great civilisations that they became, then it's justified. Aristotle talks about the issue quite well.
This "omg slavery is so evil" attitude is washed away when one reads history.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 22 novembre 2009 - 07:49 .

[Mystranna Kelteel]

Element CL wrote...

But as a leader and fighter. Allistair fails miserably. Loghain at least gets things done.

Not when he's dead he doesn't.

Plus, not for nothing, but Alistair didn't die at all when I took him through the siege. Loghain died at least 5 times. Some fighter.

Modifié par Mystranna Kelteel, 22 novembre 2009 - 07:49 .

[Yorenec]

Element CL wrote...

But as a leader and fighter. Allistair fails miserably. Loghain at least gets things done.

I completely agree. Dividing the country, killing a king, getting a portion of your countries army wiped out, supporting or at least being "blissfully unaware" of the betrayal of a teyrn and framing it on the order most responsible for battling the Darkspawn alst while basically accomplishing nothing in your projected mission is the new benchmark for getting things done.

Modifié par Yorenec, 22 novembre 2009 - 07:53 .

[Mystranna Kelteel]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

He didn't betray his country. He betrayed his king.

He broke the law of his country and defied a jury of his peers at the Landsmeet. He very much betrayed his country.
Unless you don't think the actual people and the society of a country is what makes the country. Loghain was very faithful to the soil of Ferelden I guess...

Meeeh, people hate slavery so much, but don't realise that the world and civilisations they live in are built on slavery. History is built by slavery. So don't make a big fuss out of it. If slavery is productive, then it's justified.
If slavery is what made Egypt, Greece, Rome, Islamic Empires, China, Western Europe, USA...etc into the great civilisations that they became, then it's justified. Aristotle talks about the issue quite well.
This "omg slavery is so evil" attitude is washed away when one reads history.

There you go again, trying to justify slavery to defend Loghain. Slavery is illegal in Ferelden. Defying Ferelden's law is yet another betrayal of the country.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Mystranna Kelteel wrote...
He broke the law of his country and defied a jury of his peers at the Landsmeet. He very much betrayed his country.
Unless you don't think the actual people and the society of a country is what makes the country. Loghain was very faithful to the soil of Ferelden I guess...

There you go again, trying to justify slavery to defend Loghain. Slavery is illegal in Ferelden. Defying Ferelden's law is yet another betrayal of the country.

Since when defying the country's law = betraying the country? Betraying the government and regime perhaps, but not the country. Otherwise, revolutionaries and freedom fighters were all betraying their country. Laws always change, the nation does not.
He didn't defy the landsmeet, as it allowed for duels to settle disputes.

So the French Resistance who fought against the Vichy government were betraying France? They were outlaws, but were they betraying their country?
Laws can be repelled in times of war. It's done all the time.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 22 novembre 2009 - 08:01 .

[TE_Arwald]

Ofc Allistair. I mean c'mon you have a puppet king (let morrigan have the arch demon) you can control. Much better then having a ambitious cut throat **** on the throne.

[Akka le Vil]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

He didn't betray his country. He betrayed his king.

He let half of the army get slaughtered by the darkspawns ? Started a civil war ? Let the darkspawn go rampant on the southern part of the country ?
Hello, is someone here ?

Where did you get the number? Show me where in the game it says that Lohgian killed thousands of his people.

I'm pretty sure that half the army of the country, plus the elves sold in slavery, plus the rebels hanged and left to starve in cages, plus the dissidents tortured and killed, all amount into thousands, but I think it shows just how willfully blind you are.

At least the game protrayed successfully how some people can be blind to anything but what they WANT to see. It's even said in the game I think. You would be a perfect Loghain little drone

Yorenec wrote...

I completely agree. Dividing the
country, killing a king, getting a portion of your countries army wiped
out, supporting or at least being "blissfully unaware" of the betrayal
of a teyrn and framing it on the order most responsible for battling
the Darkspawn alst while basically accomplishing nothing in your
projected mission is the new benchmark for getting things done.

Exactly ^^

[Mystranna Kelteel]

A lot of revolutionaries were betraying their country... duh.

A country is not simply a name. A country is people who grouped together under laws created from society or a ruler. Rebelling against that law or ruler is a betrayal of that country. The goal may be to recreate the laws for a more moral society (or a worse one) and/or put a new ruler on the throne, but that's recreating the country, even if it uses the same name.



Cailan was the king of Ferelden by the people's mandate since Calenhad, Maric, etc. Loghain betraying the king is the same as betraying the country because it was Cailan's country.



But, hey, if you define a country simply as a territory on a map with a specific name, then it's impossible for anyone to betray a country and your entire argument becomes meaningless.

[Yorenec]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Since when defying the country's law = betraying the country? Betraying the government and regime perhaps, but not the country. Otherwise, revolutionaries and freedom fighters were all betraying their country. Laws always change, the nation does not.
He didn't defy the landsmeet, as it allowed for duels to settle disputes.

So the French Resistance who fought against the Vichy government were betraying France? They were outlaws, but were they betraying their country?
Laws can be repelled in times of war. It's done all the time.

Not that I neccesarily agree that he truly betrayed the country, but in order for the laws to be officially repealed in a time of war, either the nobles would need to vote on it or Loghain would have to be officially recognized as king.

Neither of those happened.

[Melichai]

Mystranna Kelteel wrote...
He broke the law of his country and defied a jury of his peers at the Landsmeet. He very much betrayed his country.
Unless you don't think the actual people and the society of a country is what makes the country. Loghain was very faithful to the soil of Ferelden I guess...

Loghain is a nationalist. He is loyal to an ideal of Fereldan as an independant state. He was born into a Fereldan where the laws and people of Ferelden served the rulers of Orlais. Technically, by revolting against them he was just as evil then as he was now for ignoring the laws and people of Ferelden which he viewed as hindering his goal of maintaining Fereldens independance.

Remember that Loghain was a commoner and a bandit long before he was a Teyrn. He was reviled and hated by the nobles who collaborated with Orlais. He probably places little value on such people, and certainly doesnt look to them for guidance on what course should be taken to defend Ferelden. Given he was an outlaw for most of the rebellion, he probably doesnt care that he needs to break the odd law here and there either. If all he was concerned with was the fair treatment of the people of Ferelden and a law abiding society, he would have become an Orlesian lawyer, taking cases pro-bono. He has larger goals than that - end justifies the means.

The PC is a blood drenched mass murder, dont forget. Judge, jury and executioner throughout the game, dealing out Dirty Harry style justice on a host of NPCs. From innocent family men who had the misfortune of taking work as a guard at the Arl of Dennerims estate to sacrificing a mother in a dark blood mage ritual

Modifié par Melichai, 22 novembre 2009 - 08:08 .

[Akka le Vil]

I'm pretty sure than deliberately letting your army be slaughtered and starting a civil war during an invasion aren't in the best interest of the country.

But then it may be just me.

[KnightofPhoenix]

@Akka le Vil

Tactical retreat. Napoleon left his army in Russia and in Egypt, does that mean he betrayed his country?
He didn't start the civil war. It wa started by all sides. Those behind Loghain and those who did not wish to stand down. Civil wars are never started by one person or one faction.
He didn't let them. He couldn't deal with them as he is preoccupied with what he saw the traitors around him. Obviously, it's hard fighting exterior enemies when you have domestic enemies.

Don't be "pretty sure". Either provide me with a clear source of where you got this "tens of thousands" or simply don't say it as fact. Armies dying in battle is not killing a people. Loghain was not enthusiatic about going to battle anyhow, it was Cailin who insisted.
I only saw a very few rebels.There was only few dissidents. Most of the nobles supported Loghain before the Landsmeet. So no, I don't see this "thousands" of yours.

Childish remarks were of course ignored.  

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 22 novembre 2009 - 08:14 .

[Element CL]

Yorenec wrote...

Element CL wrote...

But as a leader and fighter. Allistair fails miserably. Loghain at least gets things done.

I completely agree. Dividing the country, killing a king, getting a portion of your countries army wiped out, supporting or at least being "blissfully unaware" of the betrayal of a teyrn and framing it on the order most responsible for battling the Darkspawn alst while basically accomplishing nothing in your projected mission is the new benchmark for getting things done.

Were Loghains consequences to fighting the blight really that bad?  

"We stopped a blight before it even truly started"

The game would have been more interesting if the blight ran amok all over ferelden before you fought em off anyway.

Loghain wins.

[menasure]

Loghain is a much better king, fighter etc ... Alistair is only good as dog around the fire of the camp.

[Yorenec]

Element CL wrote...

Were Loghains consequences to fighting the blight really that bad?  

"We stopped a blight before it even truly started"

The game would have been more interesting if the blight ran amok all over ferelden before you fought em off anyway.

Loghain wins.

I really hope you're trolling.