307 réponses à ce sujet

[KnightofPhoenix]

Mystranna Kelteel wrote...

A lot of revolutionaries were betraying their country... duh.

Eum no, revolutionaires revolt because they love their country and hate their regime. No revolution was done for betraying one's country. Of course established regimes use that clause often. "L'Etat, c'est moi" attitude of Louix the XVIII shows that he thought that the French revolutionaries were betraying the country, because they were betraying him "The State". Which is a ridiculous thought.
Bonaparte's coup was also not betraying the country.
A nation is not it's king, not its laws. Killing a king, or violating laws is possible if it's for the sake of the nation.

It's possible to betray a country when one makes a pact with the enemies of the nation. Like helping Orlais reconquere Ferelden.

[Mystranna Kelteel]

@ Malichae, the PC is given many choices in the game. My PC never sacrificed a mother, and killed Howe's guards in self defense after trying to diplomatically appeal to them.



Loghain is a slaver, a torturer, a murderer, and keen on hiring assassins and apostate blood mages. Loghain has no respect for the country's people or their wishes. He cares only for his own goal. "Nationalist" has no meaning when he's willing (and actually tries) to kill everyone who disagrees with him, calling them traitors.

[Element CL]

Plus, consider this, when he loses the battle against you or your "champion' rather then become a sniveling little sore loser crybaby, he admits underestimating you and accepts defeat and his consequences. If you show him mercy, Allistair cant handle that, and runs away to his mommy to cry.



I don't know, I'll take a capable warmonger over a incompotent little prince baby with an MTV hairdo any day.

[Melichai]

Given Loghain was at best doubtful about the grand battle plan of a single, grand battle against the Darkspawn to serve Cailan's need for personal glory, his decision to retreat could be viewed as not throwing good soldiers after bad - remember, by the time the signal does come, the situation is very desperate for the Grey Wardens in the battle. Its repeated time and again that Cailan was fighting with the Grey Wardens at the front lines. Loghain was leading the bulk of the Ferelden forces. Loghain would be very used to sending Ferelden soldiers on suicide missions to achieve a greater goal, so if he considered the preservation of his existing army as a greater importance than throwing them into a deteriorating situation then he wouldnt be afraid to make that call. Even if it meant Fereldens died.

[Akka le Vil]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

@Akka le Vil

Tactical retreat. Napoleon left his army in Russia and in Egypt, does that mean he betrayed his country?

Okay, so now you're going to argue that Loghain deliberately chosing to let the army be slaughtered was a retreat to save the army. Right. Yes. Okay.

Well, I don't think I've anything to add. Wear this avatar with pride, mate, you're just so deserving of it

Modifié par Akka le Vil, 22 novembre 2009 - 08:15 .

[Mystranna Kelteel]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

It's possible to betray a country when one makes a pact with the enemies of the nation. Like helping Orlais reconquere Ferelden.

Or selling Fereldan citizens into slavery to the Tevinter Imperium?
I ask again, what is the point in trying to protect "a country" when you ahve absolutely no respect for any of the citizens of said country. Sounds to me like Loghain wants to completely recreate every aspect of Ferelden. What exactly is he "serving"? Himself and his fear of Orlais, not the country.

[Mystranna Kelteel]

Melichai wrote...

Given Loghain was at best doubtful about the grand battle plan of a single, grand battle against the Darkspawn to serve Cailan's need for personal glory, his decision to retreat could be viewed as not throwing good soldiers after bad - remember, by the time the signal does come, the situation is very desperate for the Grey Wardens in the battle. Its repeated time and again that Cailan was fighting with the Grey Wardens at the front lines. Loghain was leading the bulk of the Ferelden forces. Loghain would be very used to sending Ferelden soldiers on suicide missions to achieve a greater goal, so if he considered the preservation of his existing army as a greater importance than throwing them into a deteriorating situation then he wouldnt be afraid to make that call. Even if it meant Fereldens died.

Loghain's plan to kill Cailan was in place long before the battle started, easily seen by the events at Highever.

[Mystranna Kelteel]

Element CL wrote...

Plus, consider this, when he loses the battle against you or your "champion' rather then become a sniveling little sore loser crybaby, he admits underestimating you and accepts defeat and his consequences. If you show him mercy, Allistair cant handle that, and runs away to his mommy to cry.

Yeah, Loghain tries to weasel out of his crimes by repenting after he's beaten. He had no intention of ever backing down until his head was in the noose. Cowardly.

[Xaila]

It'd be great to see a Loghain thread at some point that didn't invoke Godwin's law.

[Element CL]

Mystranna Kelteel wrote...

Element CL wrote...

Plus, consider this, when he loses the battle against you or your "champion' rather then become a sniveling little sore loser crybaby, he admits underestimating you and accepts defeat and his consequences. If you show him mercy, Allistair cant handle that, and runs away to his mommy to cry.

Yeah, Loghain tries to weasel out of his crimes by repenting after he's beaten. He had no intention of ever backing down until his head was in the noose. Cowardly.

Cowardly?

He accepts the offer of a one on one fight when he's got an army behind him and you think that's cowardly?

[Mystranna Kelteel]

Element CL wrote...

Cowardly?

He accepts the offer of a one on one fight when he's got an army behind him and you think that's cowardly?

That's a strawman fallacy. I never said accepting a one on one duel was cowardly.

[Element CL]

Do you have any idea how rare it is for people in power to have egos humble enough to admit when they're wrong? I find it a very redeeming quality in Loghain.

[Mystranna Kelteel]

All he really says is that he underestimates your character. Even if you spare him and take him back to camp to talk to him he will make excuses about his actions. In the end, when his head is in the noose, that's when he says "Oh, what I did might have been a little wrong... Maybe I should repent."



Much too little, far too late if you ask me.

[Vicious]

The second someone says the words 'strawman' and 'fallacy' they go a long way towards making their entire argument an epic fail. Stick to the facts people.



Let's look at things from Loghain's perspective.



All the deaths at Ostagar? Maybe Logain's fault. Maybe not. We know that Loghain genuinely believed that the strategy used at Ostagar was poor. It's entirely believable that he actually thought that they would be slaughtered regardless of whether he bailed or not.



He certainly suggests this at the Landsmeet, but we don't know how truthful he is being. Interestingly if you bring up Ostagar you lose the Landsmeet every time. Unfortunately, We are given no particular indication of exactly how big and/or unwinnable the battle was if Loghain hadn't bailed.



Also, If Loghain viewed Ostagar as a lost cause either way, then so was Lothering. Even if Loghain was slightly more cackling-mustached-villain and was just manipulating things to get rid of Cailan and the Grey Wardens, he honestly believed that the deaths here to the darkspawn (remember, no indication of a true Blight still) would be less harm to Ferelden than a protracted war of occupation with Orlais.



Loghain attempted to assassinate Arl Eamon. That is only related in an extremely tangential way to the fact that Connor is demon-bait. One or two NPCs blame Jowan for bringing the demon, but in more of a 'he's a blood mage, he must have brought it!' uninformed way. Jowan was paid to kill Eamon; the demon preserved Eamon's life. The demon was clearly a separate third party drawn to Connor that would likely have killed everyone at Redcliffe regardless of what Loghain did or did not do.





Now the real problem.



Cailan was calling in the Orlesian Grey Wardens... who were bringing with them a large force (20 legions, or something of that nature) of Orlesian chevaliers.



It's actually fairly unreasonable to expect that said Orlesian force wouldn't just kind of stick around after it was over. The Grey Wardens, naturally, simply say 'Better that than the Blight,' while Loghain says 'except this isn't a Blight, and anyway, I'd rather have the Blight.'



There was no indication aside from Cailan's optimism that winning the battle at Ostagar would stop the darkspawn incursion, blight or no. If it was a Blight, it certainly would not, since there was no Archdemon to be found.



We see absolutely nothing to suggest that Loghain is a ****ty monarch. In fact, we see many indications that he is an extremely strong monarch.



We also see many indications that he is a tyrant and willing to commit atrocities if he believes that they serve his country's best interests, and that his concept of his country's best interests is somewhat warped. For these reasons, he must be stopped. But again, he is the hero in his own mind.





For all those reasons imho he is a more interesting [if not likable] character than Alistair is.



That said, You CANNOT appreciate Alistair unless you romance him. Because otherwise he comes off as a huge whiner. My first playthrough I found nothing interesting about him. Second playthrough I played a female character, huge difference.

[bayareadodger69]

Mystranna Kelteel wrote...

Fulgrim88 wrote...

What if protecting the majority can only be achieved by sacrificing a few.
He does care about Ferelden and its people (to the point of obsession, actually), but he's aware that hard times demand hard decisions

I disagree. He cares about the concept of the nation, not the actual people. That's evidenced by him murdering them, torturing them, poisoning them, selling them into slavery, and calling everyone who disagrees with him a traitor.

Reading this statement broke my immersion!!! The name George W. Bush popped into my head unbidden! Mostly the "...cares about the concept of the nation, not the actual people" part, but also a little bit because of the "calling everyone who disagrees with him a traitor" part.

/end observation

[Yorenec]

Vicious wrote...

That said, You CANNOT appreciate Alistair unless you romance him. Because otherwise he comes off as a huge whiner. My first playthrough I found nothing interesting about him. Second playthrough I played a female character, huge difference.

My first playthrough as a male dwarf commoner I appreaciated him a lot actually. I hardened him by accident, and I enjoyed him even more when he stopped whining altogether because of it.

Also, actually using the term "epic fail" and then going to talk about facts then stating something as fact that's clearly an opinion at the end of your post doesn't do much to help your argument either.

Modifié par Yorenec, 22 novembre 2009 - 08:56 .

[Fayfel]

I have trouble choosing Alistair over Loghain myself. I guess on some level I believed that Loghain knew he was wrong, and that he should have the chance to redeem himself ( especially after speaking with him ). What really irks me though is how Alistair demands Loghain be put to death. Although he wants revenge for Duncan, he is putting his personal feelings above the greater good of defeating the blight, which is in itself an act that insults and betrays the memory of Duncan.

[Eolath]

Indirectly Loghain murdered the King, and since his daughter backs him up on that - and they're both not of noble lineage - it's pretty clear they planned a coup. Loghain's Daughter leading and Loghain pulling the strings (He commands the army, plus talks to the people - his daughter just stands beside him) Cailan wasn't enough of a puppet for Loghain, Cailan was standing up against Loghain's decisions (Most of them were pretty foolish aswell, from a military standpoint) and that's the reason Loghain wanted him gone.



Either way, you might agree with his decisions - but with King Cailan dead Alistair is the royal heir and Loghain has no right to undermine that.

[Akka le Vil]

People bending and twisting anything in order to make excuses for Loghain is very funny in a weird sort of way
At least it's about a game, though I'm really wondering about how the brains of some people work.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Loghain had one simple flaw: He did not believe any one else but himself was capable to lead Ferelden and secure its independance. His hate of the Orlesians is natural since they had just recently occupied Ferelden (How do you think the Polish felt about Germany after WW2?).



All Loghain ever did was what was neccesary for himself to keep power. We all know the most important thing to know about power, is how to keep it. Poisoning Eamon might not be the moral choice but it was however neccesary for Loghain to keep power unquestioned. You can be sure Loghain would have prefered the support of Eamon, but it simply wasn't going to happen, and leaving such a powerful political adversary alive would be stupid in this time of crisis.



Withdrawing the army at Ostargar might just have been the smartest tactical move in the whole game. In no way can any of us be sure that just because Loghain's had charged would the king have survived, its likely that the king would actually already be dead by the time Loghain would have gotten to him. Hell, we can't even be sure the battle would have been won. If Loghain had charged into the battle and lost, the entire Fereldan army (save for Redcliffe forces) would have been decimated and the Darkspawn would be able to walk right over the land. Withdrawing from Ostagar might be what saved the entire nation, and made the game at all possible to happen.



The slavery: Stop refering to the elves as citizens...

We all know they are hardly regarded as such by any humans. While perhaps the Fereldans might abhor slavery, its is probably only human slavery they abhor. The elves were already treated as slaves by the humans, and they won't even give two pots of ****** about what happens in the alienage.. Besides with the Grey Warden survivors gathering support from several banns and arls, Loghain's revenue was severely reduced and he had to gather funds in someway to be able to rebuild an army which would be able to stand against the Darkspawn. Again perhaps not the moral choice but a means to an end to secure Ferelden... Under Loghain's rule ofcourse..



Loghain is certianly not a good man, but he is a leader determined to secure his country the best future (from his point of view of course), by any means neccesary.

[Vicious]

He's an interesting character. You can't justify anything he did but it's interesting to look at it from his perspective.





I rofl at how ppl act like they're superior because people have a different point of view than them. May as well say you have no depth or intellect in your thought, just ZOMG Hes the villain who cares?!?!one?



Anyway Arl Howe is the most true evil dude in the game. No repents or regrets about anything he did. A shame he went out like a chump and got killed in a basement.

[Vicious]

The slavery: Stop refering to the elves as citizens...

Still too many crying about how Elves arent exactly as they are in Nerds and Dragons sorry Dungeons and Dragons to realize that Elves are basically 1 step up from Slaves in this world.

[Nilwarp]

What is the point of comparing a companion you get right from the start and another you can't get before the very end?

Or is it just a contest between the naïve good and the manipulative evil?

If so, this is not going to end up very shortly...

[Riona45]

Akka le Vil wrote...

People bending and twisting anything in order to make excuses for Loghain is very funny in a weird sort of way
At least it's about a game, though I'm really wondering about how the brains of some people work.

I second that...it's a bit disturbing.

[Dark83]

Melichai wrote...

I'm not too surprised by the dislike of Loghain. He is set up as the villain of the piece. However, he is not evil - he is simply committed to a goal, the independance of Ferelden and is willing to commit almost any act to advance or defend that independance.

How is he not evil?
Your goal is irrelevant, it's the choices that you make and the actions you take that define a man. Ghandi, for his country, hurt no one. Stalin, for his country, initiated the Great Purge/Great Terror.

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

It's possible to betray a
country when one makes a pact with the enemies of the nation. Like
helping Orlais reconquere Ferelden.

So the US administration of the time was betraying America when they entered a military cooperation agreement with the UK?

Xaila wrote...

It'd be great to see a Loghain thread at some point that didn't invoke Godwin's law.

Unfortunately, given that every supporter of Loghain seems the boil down to "the ends justify the means", where "the means" is committing atrocities and betrayals, and "the ends" is "the good of your nation - according to you", then Hitler is the most obvious example of precisely that mentality.

He wanted his nation to be great again, after the events of WWI (of which he was a veteran), and united his people by giving them a common purpose and common enemies. Hitler's grand vision was, in a sense, the same as every patriots who want their nation to do well. It is in the methods by which he tried to achieve that dream that gives him the (entirely deserved) reputation he has today.