307 réponses à ce sujet

[Dark83]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Withdrawing the army at Ostargar might just have been the smartest tactical move in the whole game. In no way can any of us be sure that just because Loghain's had charged would the king have survived, its likely that the king would actually already be dead by the time Loghain would have gotten to him. Hell, we can't even be sure the battle would have been won. If Loghain had charged into the battle and lost, the entire Fereldan army (save for Redcliffe forces) would have been decimated and the Darkspawn would be able to walk right over the land. Withdrawing from Ostagar might be what saved the entire nation, and made the game at all possible to happen.

This is utter bull****.
It's the smartest stragetic move - if your goal was to kill the king, the king's guard, and the Grey Wardens.
To say "withdrawal is the best tactical decision" completely and conveniently overlooks the fact that the context in which he choose to withdraw was set up by him.

Withdrawal was the smartest tactical decision - because he set it up to be so. It was his plan to put the Grey Wardens and the King up front (though he does seem to regret that the King insists on joining them, if you watch the end of the battle planning meeting closely).

This is like if you ordered your soldiers to charge into a machine gun, and then decide not to charge yourself. Sure, it's the smartest tactical move to not charge after them. But they only charged because you told them to.

[Mystranna Kelteel]

I think it's hilarious that people actually try to justify the slavery of the elves.



You know blacks were "second class citizens" after slavery was abolished. If the US was at war with Britain again at the time, do you think it would be okay to sell those people back into slavery to fund troops for the war with Britain? Apparently you guys think that would ahve been fine and dandy, and the man responsible for the sales would have been a bloody hero.

Slavery was abolished and made illegal. Loghain is selling Fereldan citizens into slavery, whether you're an elitist, racist bastard or not.

[Riona45]

Mystranna Kelteel wrote...

Slavery was abolished and made illegal. Loghain is selling Fereldan citizens into slavery, whether you're an elitist, racist bastard or not.

Oh, but Mystranna, they weren't really citizens!  Obviously not one human in Ferelden considered them to be, so it's OK to treat them as badly as deemed "necessary"!  OK, so it's not the most moral choice (as if anyone should even be concerned about that--I'm not!), but well, you do what you gotta do, ya know?












*psst--that post was satire!

[EmperorSahlertz]

Mystranna Kelteel wrote...

I think it's hilarious that people actually try to justify the slavery of the elves.

You know blacks were "second class citizens" after slavery was abolished. If the US was at war with Britain again at the time, do you think it would be okay to sell those people back into slavery to fund troops for the war with Britain? Apparently you guys think that would ahve been fine and dandy, and the man responsible for the sales would have been a bloody hero.
Slavery was abolished and made illegal. Loghain is selling Fereldan citizens into slavery, whether you're an elitist, racist bastard or not.

Not trying to defend slavery or anything, but you can bet your sweet hiney that just around 10-20 years after the slavery's abolishment a lot of people wouldn't have minded selling the blacks again if it meant winning a war...

What's going on in Ferelden is war, tough and ugly decision needs to be made in war, if you aren't willing to make these decissions you will loose the war... If Loghain hadn't sold the elves into slavery he would be bankrupt and thus had lost the war. His ideals was clearly not worth loosing the nation (mind you he thought he was the only one capable of leading it).

[Ranik15]

Saurel wrote...

A part of me wants to Loghain just because of the voice over... Simon Templeton <3 <3

I have to be honest, I kinda wish he wasn't the quasi main villain.  I just liked he presentation a lot ....He was the Yang to Duncan's Yin.

Seriously, I keep expecting him to say something like, "You don't know anything about the pillars, do you Raziel?"

[Mystranna Kelteel]

The war with Orlais.

The fictitious war with Orlais.

Loghain is bankrupt because he decided to ignore the actual threat and pursue phantom spaceman. He did so by breaking all kinds of laws. I don't even know what you people are arguing anymore. Are you trying to say he was right? Or are you simply trying to say that he thought he was right? Because the latter is just a silly thing to argue.
Also, just to throw this out there. "Difficult decisions must be made in war!" is not an excuse for crimes against one's country or crimes against "humanity". If you're not trying to justify Loghain's slavery, what the hell are you trying to do?

Modifié par Mystranna Kelteel, 23 novembre 2009 - 06:22 .

[Onyx Jaguar]

Loghain sacrificed the King's Army, and the Grey Wardens of Ferelden.



Obviously a better person than Alistair.



Benedict Arnold was also a hero that helped turn the tide of the Revolutionary War and he is remembered as a traitor even though his acts were far less egregious. Odd that I am comparing a fictional character with a real one.

[TremCenwyth]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

If slavery is productive, then it's justified.

I think every rational person should have stopped arguing in this thread at this point. Continuing the "debate" after this is like hitting your head against a wall and expecting different results.

Spoiler:
You're just going to end up with a headache.

[Mikka-chan]

This is so weird.

Not liking Alistair's personality and liking Loghain's better then his, I can get. Finding Loghain a more interesting character, I can also get. Finding Loghain a better fighter then Alistair seems horribly weird to me (as you basically dictate Alistair's leveling choices from what, level 4 or so up while you don't get Loghain till the 20+?), but I suppose if you're not too good with builds, that might make sense.

But once you start arguing that Loghain is a better person then Alistair, you... how can you argue that one? Alistair is a bad person because he wanted Loghain killed? The Loghain who pushed to their death's Alistair's family (foster-father, friends, actual brother) and then had the other father-figure in his life poisoned as well? I'm not even going to bring up the rest of it: selling his own citizen's to slavery, having those who disagree with him tortured, leaving towns defenseless as he conscripts for a civil war despite the blight being right behind him...

And, you know? Read the epilogues. Alistair makes a fine King, and he does not seem to leave deaths, poisons, and civil wars in his wake. I think that alone makes him very likely a better King then Loghain was Regent.

[Element CL]

TremCenwyth wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

If slavery is productive, then it's justified.

I think every rational person should have stopped arguing in this thread at this point. Continuing the "debate" after this is like hitting your head against a wall and expecting different results.

Spoiler:
You're just going to end up with a headache.

Racism is wrong, no argument here about that. but...

Considering it's a video game, in medieval ish times...
considering the elves in the alienage were dying of a uncurable disease...
considering there's a war brewing with what would be the equivalent of satan's army rising up to attack mortal life on earth, which already had denerim on edge...
considering the move of selling healthy citizens of a quarantined area for profit when a war that needing funding was on the way, is a move that turns a potentially costly problem into a  short term profit which can be sent away from denerim and put on the back burner at the same time...

It was not so bad a call as to be considered unredeemable...  This is far from hitler caliber evil. 

Yes abandoning a king to die along with all those people is a crappy thing to do.  But Loghain is more a headstrong realist, somewhat confused, then he is a powermongering tyrant.  What I realized at the end was that everything you see him saying to the people of ferelden, other then the obvious lies about what happened at ostagar, were things he was actualy sincere about.  He didn't just pretend to care about the people to keep his butt in a throne, he wanted his butt in the throne because he cared about the people. 


Alistair on the other had was funny, and had an expensive haircut... that's about it.  Appealing to some people I understand that, but nowhere near as deep or complex. 

Modifié par Element CL, 23 novembre 2009 - 06:57 .

[Mystranna Kelteel]

He's very much a "power-mongering tyrant"... You realize that all the torture, poisoning, and other assassination attempts were designed to keep people from questioning him, right? That's like the archetype of a power-hungry tyrant. He tried to force people to bow to his wishes, and called them traitors or killed them/their children if they refused.



And selling slaves for money was to fix the problem he himself caused in forcing Ferelden into a civil war to prepare for a fictitious war while in an actual war. It's not like he made 1 little teensy mistake he can apologize for; he made at least a dozen, each one worse than the last if not equally despicable.



And if you have to say "it's a videogame..." in defense of your point, then it's pretty obvious that you're fumbling for footing here.

[Onyx Jaguar]

Another point I might add is that Alistair > Loghain because I killed Loghain and thus he has become rather useless!



Of course I ended up killing Alistair too, but having Alistair kill Loghain = win

[kraidy1117]

I like Loghain better for many reasons..

-He has a better character
-his voice is cooler
-I find him to be better then SAlstair
-he is a champion which saved my ass alot during the archdemon fight on nightmare.

[Yorenec]

Element CL wrote...

considering the elves in the alienage were dying of a uncurable disease...

Ahahahahahahahahahahahahhahahahhahahahahahahhahahahahah.

Oh my god, that is just too rich.

[Sabin Stargem]

Slavery isn't productive, even if you ignore the moral implications of selling other people. There is a war going on, and having the raw manpower to supply your troops and to fight the enemy is a must. Granted, these people will also consume food, but the fact is that gold is only a representation of value, and is worthless without merchants, farmers, troops, and other people to give it that worth. Sure, the elves are second class citizens...but the blight is a good opportunity as any to improve their lot. Not enough farmers? Hire and teach elves a thing or two. Need a quick wall? Elves.





In short, I am of the opinion that an brief education and allowing the elves to work for a better lifestyle would work out well for both Loghain and them. He gets an increased amount of relatively expendable manpower, (NOT Ostagar style. That is stupid.) the elves get to win respect as they show what they can do inside and outside of battle, and the amount of elves overcrowding the alienage will decrease, due to death or simply not living their anymore. Win-win, I believe.



Of course, if Loghain is an insane nutbar, then even use of the Machiavellian mindset wouldn't help him or Fereldan.

[Xaila]

I don't remember if I replied to this topic or not...



I love both of them as characters. Before you all start hating, that doesn't mean I would love Loghain in real life or approve of his actions (or all of Alistair's for that matter). I think they're both extremely well written and interesting to experience in their own ways. Remember, not everyone out there is playing a "good" PC either.



The Loghain hate has kinda surprised me. Not the hate of his actions in the game, but of the character himself. Obviously he's done/enabled some pretty terrible things, but so often I see people fangirling/fanboying over villains in other games and media...and ones who have done far worse. I guess I've just become used to seeing that, it's weird when it doesn't happen so much.



Howe was a much more detestable villain for me. Loghain should be, for all that he's done, but there's just something sad there. Perhaps seeing the glimpses of his once-heroic self, and kinda regretting that it all went to hell.



I guess he's the epitome of the whole "Die a hero, or live long enough to see yourself become the villain" thing!

[Taerda]

Onyx Jaguar wrote...

Loghain sacrificed the King's Army, and the Grey Wardens of Ferelden.

Obviously a better person than Alistair.

Benedict Arnold was also a hero that helped turn the tide of the Revolutionary War and he is remembered as a traitor even though his acts were far less egregious. Odd that I am comparing a fictional character with a real one.

Thank you. I always want to bring up Benedict Arnold (one of the American Revolutionary War heros and very popular) when talking about Loghain ... but I don't because most either don't know who he was or would split hairs on how this difference or that difference makes things non-analogous.

My character would see Loghain just as contemporaries saw Benedict Arnold and hold as much hate for Loghain as they had for Arnold.

[Element CL]

Mystranna Kelteel wrote...

He's very much a "power-mongering tyrant"... You realize that all the torture, poisoning, and other assassination attempts were designed to keep people from questioning him, right? That's like the archetype of a power-hungry tyrant. He tried to force people to bow to his wishes, and called them traitors or killed them/their children if they refused.

And selling slaves for money was to fix the problem he himself caused in forcing Ferelden into a civil war to prepare for a fictitious war while in an actual war. It's not like he made 1 little teensy mistake he can apologize for; he made at least a dozen, each one worse than the last if not equally despicable.

And if you have to say "it's a videogame..." in defense of your point, then it's pretty obvious that you're fumbling for footing here.

But in the end, he puts his people before himself, when he accepts defeat.  He concedes to losing because after all the Grey Warden accomplished in getting to him, and finally putting the nail in the coffin by being beaten in a fight with him, he realizes that Warden and Gang are more fit to handle the throne then himself.  Pride would cry, throw a fit, or barter for an escape.  None of that, and when he's spared, commits his life to the Grey Warden.  For me, that turn around is the best part of the whole story.

[Mystranna Kelteel]

He put his people before himself? What? Did you miss the poisoning, the torturing, the slavery, the murder, the calling everyone at the Landsmeet traitors for siding against him?



So he was a stoic bastard to the very end; that in no way excuses him for his crimes or makes him a good guy. You may be able to respect his drive, I guess.

[kraidy1117]

Mystranna Kelteel wrote...

He put his people before himself? What? Did you miss the poisoning, the torturing, the slavery, the murder, the calling everyone at the Landsmeet traitors for siding against him?

So he was a stoic bastard to the very end; that in no way excuses him for his crimes or makes him a good guy. You may be able to respect his drive, I guess.

You are right, but Loghain is a complex person, having him in your party and talking to him you find out the real reason why he did what he did, and it makes sence. Yes he is a tyrant, but tyrants can redeem them selfs.

[Element CL]

Taerda wrote...

Onyx Jaguar wrote...

Loghain sacrificed the King's Army, and the Grey Wardens of Ferelden.

Obviously a better person than Alistair.

Benedict Arnold was also a hero that helped turn the tide of the Revolutionary War and he is remembered as a traitor even though his acts were far less egregious. Odd that I am comparing a fictional character with a real one.

Thank you. I always want to bring up Benedict Arnold (one of the American Revolutionary War heros and very popular) when talking about Loghain ... but I don't because most either don't know who he was or would split hairs on how this difference or that difference makes things non-analogous.

My character would see Loghain just as contemporaries saw Benedict Arnold and hold as much hate for Loghain as they had for Arnold.

It's not fair to call Allistair a "better" person then Loghain.  Allistair doesn't want the Kingship because he knows, that faced with the decision like what to do witht he plague in the Alienage,  he would have no idea what to do.  He would close it to keep it from spreading, then a sick mother would bring her child to him and theyd cry, and he'd open it.  Then the plague would spread out into all of denerim and right when the all the diseased people are breaking down the door to the castle to demand help, the darkspawn would have sprang up from the ground and cought him with his pants down. 

Allistairs "good guy" personality does not accomadate those types of choices, and he knows that.  Loghain understands, accepts it, steps up to the plate confidently with his own ideas, however confused they may be, and makes no apologies until by his own rationale, somebody proves themselves more fit then he himself is.  He then accepts whatever fate this person has in store for him with out a peep of protest.  Like I said Loghain > Allistair. 

[Mystranna Kelteel]

Alistair is by far a better person than Loghain. Even if Alistair didn't know exactly how to deal with a situation, I doubt he'd turn around and sell them into slavery to try and get money to fix a problem he himself caused by spreading murder.

[Element CL]

Yorenec wrote...

Element CL wrote...

considering the elves in the alienage were dying of a uncurable disease...

Ahahahahahahahahahahahahhahahahhahahahahahahhahahahahah.

Oh my god, that is just too rich.

Lol, there aren't any lines to read between there.  I meant the disease that was literally killing them, not being elves. 

[Hoffneous001]

Melichai!!



when I became aware that i could lose Alister if i chose to bring Loghain into the Gray Wardens i was absolutely ready to let Loghain die... but after reading your views on how Loghain is a mirrior to the wardens and more specificaly Duncan... i have decided to lose fluffy Alister so that i can bring Loghain into the fold.



very persuasive comments...

[Yorenec]

Element CL wrote...

Lol, there aren't any lines to read between there.  I meant the disease that was literally killing them, not being elves. 

You do realize there was no actual disease. It was all a hex put on them by the Tevinter mages to make them think they were diseased so they would enter the hospice to be cured, only to be tossed into slavery and then the Tevinters telling the rest of the elves they had died and their bodies contagious so their family wouldn't try to retrieve them.