307 réponses à ce sujet

[Element CL]

Yorenec wrote...

Element CL wrote...

Lol, there aren't any lines to read between there.  I meant the disease that was literally killing them, not being elves. 

You do realize there was no actual disease. It was all a hex put on them by the Tevinter mages to make them think they were diseased so they would enter the hospice to be cured, only to be tossed into slavery and then the Tevinters telling the rest of the elves they had died and their bodies contagious so their family wouldn't try to retrieve them.

Oh.... no I don't seem to remember that.  lol.  I'm pretty sure that fact wasn't brought up at the landsmeet against Loghain right?  Only that he had sold elves as slaves.  Was he in on that part of it or was it the Tevinter manipulating him?

Modifié par Element CL, 23 novembre 2009 - 07:38 .

[Onyx Jaguar]

Loghain is a mass murderer

Alistair potentially is a murderer of one

Seems clear to me.

Of course one could debate Loghain's intentions as "Murder" rather than something else.

Modifié par Onyx Jaguar, 23 novembre 2009 - 07:40 .

[Yorenec]

Element CL wrote...

Oh.... no I don't seem to remember that.  lol.  I'm pretty sure that fact wasn't brought up at the landsmeet against Loghain right?  Only that he had sold elves as slaves.  Was he in on that part of it or was it the Tevinter manipulating him?

He knew exactly what was going on the entire time.

[Element CL]

Yorenec wrote...

Element CL wrote...

Oh.... no I don't seem to remember that.  lol.  I'm pretty sure that fact wasn't brought up at the landsmeet against Loghain right?  Only that he had sold elves as slaves.  Was he in on that part of it or was it the Tevinter manipulating him?

He knew exactly what was going on the entire time.

Ok well uh... I don't remember that so until I see it on my 2nd run it didn't happen.. lol

[Onyx Jaguar]

Element CL wrote...

Yorenec wrote...

Element CL wrote...

Oh.... no I don't seem to remember that.  lol.  I'm pretty sure that fact wasn't brought up at the landsmeet against Loghain right?  Only that he had sold elves as slaves.  Was he in on that part of it or was it the Tevinter manipulating him?

He knew exactly what was going on the entire time.

Ok well uh... I don't remember that so until I see it on my 2nd run it didn't happen.. lol

If you bring that up he says something along the lines of it being necessary.  Of course that really doesn't sway the Landsmeet committee. 

[Yorenec]

Element CL wrote...

Ok well uh... I don't remember that so until I see it on my 2nd run it didn't happen.. lol

It's never actually said in-game that's what happened, but if you talk to the hospice mages/Shianni/other elves/Caladrius/look around the slaver complex, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to put two and two together.

It's even more evident by the fact that the hospice guards says there are sick elves in there, yet when you go in, there aren't any elves in there period.

[nuculerman]

My Dalish Ranger saved Loghain and let Allistair get executed. Humans are humans.



My human mage saved Loghain and let Allistair run away. Everyone deserves a chance at redemption. Jowan proved that if you gave people that chance they might even make good use of it.



My human noble beserker will obviously kill Loghain.



My Dwarf commoner made Allistair kill Loghain. Being a Grey Warden might not let him bring justice to Dwarf Nobles but he could make up for it by bringing justice to human lords who treat others as slaves.



But those are my characters opinions. My personal opinion? They both suck. Loghain went beyond crazy. He let Earl Howe kill his best friend and steal his title... even rewarded him for it. He enslaved his own elven citizens to protect his citizens (a sane person would have had a wait...what? moment). He hired a maleficar to poison a perfectly respectable and innocent Earl because he MIGHT oppose him. He jailed his daughter. He only gives up because he can't beat you in a fight... No freakin' apology or anything.



Allistair is a whiny b**ch. He refuses to make any decisions but will criticize every single one of yours. Someone belongs in middle management, eh? No matter what you do he's upset at the end. If you save Loghain he feels you betrayed him. If you kill Loghain and make him King he feels like you betrayed him. He finds out he has a sister...she's a bad loser... and instead of telling her that his life hasn't been great either, he's signed his life away in a contract that means he'll most likely die in the next few months and even if he doesn't he's only going to live until he's 40 or 50... he promises her money. And not because he thinks she deserves it... just because he can't take a formal stand on any issue.



But in the end... Allistair wins. Mostly because his dialogue is awesome with almost every party member. He has great Dog dialogue. Great Morrigan dialogue. Great Lelianna dialogue. A couple worthy Wynne dialogues. And the one or two dialogues he has with the others is all worthy hearing. Plus, putting him in the knight's armor with Duncan's Shield and then giving him the throne and accepting his offer to remain his advisor... almost makes up for how whiny he is and gets you a 'best friend" end game.

[Yorenec]

It's funny how most of the complaints about Alistair are in regards to his whining, a problem that can be completely rectified by doing his personal quest that takes all of like twenty seconds and then picking the right dialogue option.



He doesn't actually really complain if you spare Loghain, only if you make him a Grey Warden, which considering the circumstances and how Loghain had proven himself as nothing but a liability during the Blight up until that point, is justifiable.

[PatT2]

Craig McDermott wrote...

Loghain was a true badass and Alistair is nothing but a ****. Loghain made the decisions he did out of necessity. He had to make the hard choices and was willing to live with the consequences.

Meanwhile Alistair prances around avoiding his noble lineage and whining and crying whenever the PC does what he needs to do to save the kingdom.

Hard choices, eh? Like sending wave after wave of assasin after me? Locking me up in jail? Locking up his own daughter? LEAVING THE BATTLEFIELD??? That's the most cowardly, self-serving, dastardly act of abandonment of all honor I can imagine! Retreating to leave your "allies" die so you can have glory and power? Nothing hard about it. And he doesn't live in my game. Ever. I kill him. He could beg. I'll still decapitate him.

Generals don't leave their kings on the battlefield. End of story. No honor.

[Akka le Vil]

Xaila wrote...

The Loghain hate has kinda surprised me. Not the hate of his actions in the game, but of the character himself. Obviously he's done/enabled some pretty terrible things, but so often I see people fangirling/fanboying over villains in other games and media...and ones who have done far worse. I guess I've just become used to seeing that, it's weird when it doesn't happen so much.

Because you find Loghain lacks dumb fanboys ? 0_o
I mean, there is people trying to paint how he "saved the day" at Ostagar while he was SETTING IT UP for being a failure, you just physically can't go more fanboyish than that.

kraidy1117 wrote...

Mystranna Kelteel wrote...

He
put his people before himself? What? Did you miss the poisoning, the
torturing, the slavery, the murder, the calling everyone at the
Landsmeet traitors for siding against him?

So he was a stoic
bastard to the very end; that in no way excuses him for his crimes or
makes him a good guy. You may be able to respect his drive, I
guess.

You are right, but Loghain is a complex person,
having him in your party and talking to him you find out the real
reason why he did what he did, and it makes sence.

Actually, no he didn't, and that's my main beef with him.
Even after finishing the game and having read what he said for his defense, his whole betrayal method still makes absolutely no sense.
He's constantly said to be very competent and very smart and the like. And despite that, all he's able to do is to make situation worse and to take decisions that actually hamper his goals. I guess it's writing flaws at work, but letting the darkspawns win the battle was just the single most idiotic decision in the whole game. It would have been much smarter to FIRST fight  the battle, arrange for Cailan to "accidentally" die during the battle, and THEN put the blame on the Grey Warden.

THERE it would make sense : kill the king that (in the diseased mind of Loghain) let Orlaisian back in the country ; have the perfect scapegoat (Grey Warden) that are also the main "pretext" to let Orlaisian into the country ; win the battle against the darkspanw.
But what we see in the game ? It doesn't, and it makes him look like a complete inefficient fool (in addition to be insane, contradictory, hypocrite and juste without any sense);

Modifié par Akka le Vil, 23 novembre 2009 - 09:10 .

[Element CL]

Akka le Vil wrote...

Xaila wrote...

The Loghain hate has kinda surprised me. Not the hate of his actions in the game, but of the character himself. Obviously he's done/enabled some pretty terrible things, but so often I see people fangirling/fanboying over villains in other games and media...and ones who have done far worse. I guess I've just become used to seeing that, it's weird when it doesn't happen so much.

Because you find Loghain lacks dumb fanboys ? 0_o
I mean, there is people trying to paint how he "saved the day" at Ostagar while he was SETTING IT UP for being a failure, you just physically can't go more fanboyish than that.

kraidy1117 wrote...

Mystranna Kelteel wrote...

He
put his people before himself? What? Did you miss the poisoning, the
torturing, the slavery, the murder, the calling everyone at the
Landsmeet traitors for siding against him?

So he was a stoic
bastard to the very end; that in no way excuses him for his crimes or
makes him a good guy. You may be able to respect his drive, I
guess.

You are right, but Loghain is a complex person,
having him in your party and talking to him you find out the real
reason why he did what he did, and it makes sence.

Actually, no he didn't, and that's my main beef with him.
Even after finishing the game and having read what he said for his defense, his whole betrayal method still makes absolutely no sense.
He's constantly said to be very competent and very smart and the like. And despite that, all he's able to do is to make situation worse and to take decisions that actually hamper his goals. I guess it's writing flaws at work, but letting the darkspawns win the battle was just the single most idiotic decision in the whole game. It would have been much smarter to FIRST fight  the battle, arrange for Cailan to "accidentally" die during the battle, and THEN put the blame on the Grey Warden.

THERE it would make sense. But what we see in the game ? It doesn't, and it makes him look like a complete inefficient fool (in addition to be insane, contradictory, hypocrite and juste without any sense);

Do you remember in the beginning of the game, Loghain and the King are at odds about how to handle the battle?  Maybe it was here that Loghain decided A) the battle was unwinnable and he could save his own men and put a more competent man, himself, in power all in one move.  I know Cousland was betrayed before this happen, perhaps the kings strategy was something Loghain hoped he wouldn't have to deal with but accepted that in likelyhood would, and so went ahead with the arl's plan for the Cousland's just to make sure he had that base covered.

[Akka le Vil]

Element CL wrote...

Do you remember in the beginning of the game, Loghain and the King are at odds about how to handle the battle?  Maybe it was here that Loghain decided A) the battle was unwinnable and he could save his own men and put a more competent man, himself, in power all in one move.  I know Cousland was betrayed before this happen, perhaps the kings strategy was something Loghain hoped he wouldn't have to deal with but accepted that in likelyhood would, and so went ahead with the arl's plan for the Cousland's just to make sure he had that base covered.

Loghain planned to betray the king long before, as it's pretty obvious with the attack of Howe happening long before the battle.
There is nothing indicating that the battle was unwinnable.
If he wanted to put someone more competent into power, he didn't need to lose half his army, which is a completely stupid move when you plan to defend against two invasions.

Stop with the idiocy, thanks.

Modifié par Akka le Vil, 23 novembre 2009 - 09:29 .

[Element CL]

Akka le Vil wrote...

Element CL wrote...

Do you remember in the beginning of the game, Loghain and the King are at odds about how to handle the battle?  Maybe it was here that Loghain decided A) the battle was unwinnable and he could save his own men and put a more competent man, himself, in power all in one move.  I know Cousland was betrayed before this happen, perhaps the kings strategy was something Loghain hoped he wouldn't have to deal with but accepted that in likelyhood would, and so went ahead with the arl's plan for the Cousland's just to make sure he had that base covered.

Loghain planned to betray the king long before, as it's pretty obvious with the attack of Howe happening long before the battle.
Stop with the idiocy, thanks.

You're reffering to the attack on the Cousland's I mentioned in the post you just replied to right?  
What idiocy? 

Edit: isn't it great how you can edit your posts and fix your idiocy?  I love it. 

Edit part 2: I just watched said part again on my second play, Loghain actaully tells him that he is foolish to risk hiw own life on the front lines, he replies that maybe they should wait for the orlesians help, this is where it seems Loghains condemnation of the king becomes final. 

Modifié par Element CL, 23 novembre 2009 - 09:48 .

[menasure]

can't say i'm sorry the king died at all. just another guy with a god complex who thought he could win a battle because his armor was shiny enough. i have not seen any other than a complete inefficient fool of a leader in the whole game so far (mm except maybe behlen for the dwarves).



they all let you do the dirty work anyway. no matter what ruler you always end up as the errant boy, prove yourself to be more competent than them because you pull those undoable missions off (although your choices might be equally ludicrous as the ones the rulers make).



what disturbs me the most about alistair is that he's portrayed as a metrosexual stereotype good lucking ideological wimp, which makes him nowhere suitable as a ruler during anything else but a peaceful time ... chance of that happening in ferelden : 0. as grey-evil character my gripes with loghain was more based on being personally involved with the result of the betrayal than the betrayal itself. that does not mean that i want alistair to be king like the game presumes. in fact i have more sympathy for loghain who at least proved that he's capable of taking necessary nasty decisions to establish his position.

[Yorenec]

menasure wrote...

can't say i'm sorry the king died at all. just another guy with a god complex who thought he could win a battle because his armor was shiny enough. i have not seen any other than a complete inefficient fool of a leader in the whole game so far (mm except maybe behlen for the dwarves).

they all let you do the dirty work anyway. no matter what ruler you always end up as the errant boy, prove yourself to be more competent than them because you pull those undoable missions off (although your choices might be equally ludicrous as the ones the rulers make).

what disturbs me the most about alistair is that he's portrayed as a metrosexual stereotype good lucking ideological wimp, which makes him nowhere suitable as a ruler during anything else but a peaceful time ... chance of that happening in ferelden : 0. as grey-evil character my gripes with loghain was more based on being personally involved with the result of the betrayal than the betrayal itself. that does not mean that i want alistair to be king like the game presumes. in fact i have more sympathy for loghain who at least proved that he's capable of taking necessary nasty decisions to establish his position.

Bhelen is actually arguably the best leader in the entire game, considering his ending consists of leading the dwarves out of the hole they had dug themselves into by adhering to tradition. Bhelen then proceeds to lead them into basically a new golden age.

Anyways. Stereotype, sort of. Metrosexual, what? Good looking(I guess that's what you meant), what does that have to do anything. Idealogical, sure, not that it's necessarily a bad thing. Wimp, if training to hunt down mages, going through the Joining, and fighting Darkspawn when you're severely outnumbered makes you a wimp, I shudder to think what many of the neckbeards denouncing him could be classified as.

Sure Loghain proved he's capable of taking necessary decisions to establish position, too bad ends justify the means is something to laud only when it works. When the person fails like Loghain did, it becomes something to laugh at and mock for all eternity.

[FlintlockJazz]

Regarding whether Cailan would have made a good king: I think that once he had got his glory hounding out of him (possibly after seeing what real battle is like or even just getting older) then he would have made a good leader. He seemed to genuinely care for his people and was not willing to be pushed around by his subordinates but instead make his own decisions (which were not always good to be fair).



Anora was a beaureucrat and a politician, and we all know that politicians don't make good leaders despite what they may think (Lord Harrowmont proves this).

[Akka le Vil]

Element CL wrote...

You're reffering to the attack on the Cousland's I mentioned in the post you just replied to right?  
What idiocy? 

Edit: isn't it great how you can edit your posts and fix your idiocy?  I love it.

I modified the message right away, blame the forum for not being quicker on the display.
And if you mention Howe and still say that Loghain didn't planned to kill the king beforehand, then you're twice the idiot, as you bring yourself the argument destroying your reasoning, and you still hold on to it...

Edit part 2: I just watched said part again on my second play, Loghain actaully tells him that he is foolish to risk hiw own life on the front lines, he replies that maybe they should wait for the orlesians help, this is where it seems Loghains condemnation of the king becomes final. 

Except that it again makes no sense : if the darkspawn raid is vainquished, then the Orlaisians have no reason to come into Ferelden anymore. Winning the battle is the best way to keep the Orlaisians out of the country. Once again, all what Loghain do is to work against his supposed best interests.

[Element CL]

Akka le Vil wrote...

Element CL wrote...

You're reffering to the attack on the Cousland's I mentioned in the post you just replied to right?  
What idiocy? 

Edit: isn't it great how you can edit your posts and fix your idiocy?  I love it.

I modified the message right away, blame the forum for not being quicker on the display.
And if you mention Howe and still say that Loghain didn't planned to kill the king beforehand, then you're twice the idiot, as you bring yourself the argument destroying your reasoning, and you still hold on to it...

Edit part 2: I just watched said part again on my second play, Loghain actaully tells him that he is foolish to risk hiw own life on the front lines, he replies that maybe they should wait for the orlesians help, this is where it seems Loghains condemnation of the king becomes final. 

Except that it again makes no sense : if the darkspawn raid is vainquished, then the Orlaisians have no reason to come into Ferelden anymore. Winning the battle is the best way to keep the Orlaisians out of the country. Once again, all what Loghain do is to work against his supposed best interests.

Unless of course, again, he believed the fight was unwinnable.  If in fact his flanking force was enough to turn the tide, he could have waited till the king was killed THEN ran in and won, Kings dead, blights believed over, AND nobody can point the finger at him for deserting.  

Of course this whole argument doesn't even make sense.  Why look for problems with the story when you can just fill in blanks in ways that make it work?   

[Akka le Vil]

Element CL wrote...

Unless of course, again, he believed the fight was unwinnable.  If in fact his flanking force was enough to turn the tide, he could have waited till the king was killed THEN ran in and won, Kings dead, blights believed over, AND nobody can point the finger at him for deserting.  

Of course this whole argument doesn't even make sense.  Why look for problems with the story when you can just fill in blanks in ways that make it work?   

Except it actually doesn't work at all, which is kinda the point...

And there is no indication that the battle is "unwinnable". Loghain himself decided the strategy and didn't suggested retreat, and he already planned the coup against Cailan. You're the one bending facts. The game presents a pretty clear situation, you're the one looking for ways to excuse Loghain while the raw FACTS prove the opposite.

[Vilegrim]

KalosCast wrote...

Serogon wrote...

It's possible I'm remembering wrong, but weren't the only Orlesians that were coming Grey Wardens? That's hardly handing Ferelden over to them.

The Orlesian Grey Wardens supported by 2 companies of Chevalier Cavalry (I think they said it was cavalry, might be wrong on that. But I think it is because it's only the second time they mention horses outside of an origin story)

Loghain...
1) Believes the ends always justify the means
2) Hates Orlais

Combine that with a very strong confidence in one's own ability, and you've got a good villain... even if the Landsmeet makes my ears bleed.

Loghain mentions 5 legions of Chevalier, if legion means roughly the same in DA as it did in real life, thats between 20-50 Thousand troops, and you think they would just go home? Really? 50,000 troops of a semi-hostile power, one that used to rule you with an iron fist, and they would just go home after the defeat of the blight?  That many troops could very well be a reconquest, Fereldan being seen as to weak to defend itself, and having spent vast amounts of blood and treasure against the blight, having lost large amounts of land, it's capital directly in line of the invasion, would it have had the power to defeat those troops, having let them past the mountains, it's natural fortifcation?  Loghain prevented the reconquest of fereldane, but I can not forgive him his methods, and I doubt he can forgive himself them either.     Remeber the allies you gather have no interest in conquest, the closest is the Dalish who may want revenge but they are too weak to accomplish that on their own,  Orlais however is certainly strong enough to strike out on their own, the only  reason I can see that they haven't invaded already, is those mountains and respect for Loghains military skills.

[Element CL]

Akka le Vil wrote...

Element CL wrote...

Unless of course, again, he believed the fight was unwinnable.  If in fact his flanking force was enough to turn the tide, he could have waited till the king was killed THEN ran in and won, Kings dead, blights believed over, AND nobody can point the finger at him for deserting.  

Of course this whole argument doesn't even make sense.  Why look for problems with the story when you can just fill in blanks in ways that make it work?   

Except it actually doesn't work at all, which is kinda the point...

And there is no indication that the battle is "unwinnable". Loghain himself decided the strategy and didn't suggested retreat, and he already planned the coup against Cailan. You're the one bending facts. The game presents a pretty clear situation, you're the one looking for ways to excuse Loghain while the raw FACTS prove the opposite.

 
Were not on the same page, I thought you meant the story as it is presented in the game didn't make sense, not the justification of Loghain I suggested.  Either way, allistair is someone who would call somebody an idiot over the internet, loghain would hold his tongue till he saw him in person,or simply not bothered.

Loghain wins.

Modifié par Element CL, 23 novembre 2009 - 11:22 .

[Tesslyn]

I'm pretty convinced now that Orleis was definatly planning to pick up some territory on the sly. This in my view would excuse Loghain because he really would have achieved the best outcome for Fereldan.



Also: Comparing Elves to Blacks? I think we should all be able to agree that Blacks are HUMAN, and Elves are more closely comparable to little green aliens or something.

[Ace Attorney]

The beautiful irony of Loghain haters is that they proclaim he is a worthless killer and he made decisions to put himself in power. But if you think about it, not showing mercy to him makes you no better that him AND you can put yourself or your pick in a position of power.

[Akka le Vil]

Vilegrim wrote...

Loghain mentions 5 legions of Chevalier

No. It was not five, it was 2, and it was not "legions" (I don't remember the exact term, but it was not "legion").
Anyway, whatever the reinforcement, and wether or not you're as paranoid as Loghain, the fact is that killing half your own military forces while still not stopping the darkspawns and starting a civil war is the dumbest possible way to "prepare" for (supposed) Orlesian invasion.
Basically, you halve your forces while opening two new fronts. That's the benchmark of stupidity and uselessness.

Element CL wrote...

Were not on the same page, I thought
you meant the story as it is presented in the game didn't make sense,
not the justification of Loghain I suggested.

Neither make sense, for the same reason.

T3hAnubis wrote...

The beautiful irony of Loghain haters
is that they proclaim he is a worthless killer and he made decisions to
put himself in power. But if you think about it, not showing mercy to
him makes you no better that him AND you can put yourself or your pick
in a position of power.

Yeah, because killing a guilty criminal is just the same as slaughtering thousands innocents
The stupidity of this argument is just staggering.

Modifié par Akka le Vil, 23 novembre 2009 - 01:13 .

[Ace Attorney]

Mercy is the quality of a good person. If you show him no mercy of death, you're no better than the "criminal" you're killing (yes, I'm against RL death penalty). Killing a killer isn't justice, it is vengeance.

Modifié par T3hAnubis, 23 novembre 2009 - 01:21 .