307 réponses à ce sujet

[Akka le Vil]

You have the legal power, but I don't agree you have the moral right.

Would have I been one of the many soldiers that ended up dragged underground by a bunch of hungry darkspawn because Loghain put me in their hands to further his (inefficient and stupid) goals, found myself in a fate worse than death, I really don't think I would have thought "how yes, forgive Loghain, I don't mind".

Same if I had been some elf waking up in Tevinter, lost to my family and friend for a life of servitude.

"Michael, I forgive you all your crimes against me. But I cannot forgive your crimes against everyone else, and for those crimes, you will be executed."

-Richard, Wizard's First Rule (Terry Goodkind)

This I agree.

[Soeverein]

*shrugs*

Seems this discussion has turned purely into RL politics for most people. At that point, it becomes worthless to continue discussing it.

Godwinning a fictional character makes you no better than Jack Thompson or these human rights idiots who've been whining that some video games allow you to commit war crimes.

I for one am glad this game removed the alignment meters and similar **** because it finally means being able to let the game characters grow their own morals that aren't judged based on a RL morality scale. Seems through this discussion that the majority of people still want something like that though.

me hates Moral Absolutism

Modifié par Soeverein, 24 novembre 2009 - 11:20 .

[Element CL]

What does godwinning mean? Is it the same thing as machiavelianism?

[Soeverein]

Godwinning means comparing someone to Hitler

[Soeverein]

edit: sorry, double posted. Seems the forum takes several minutes to show a new post

Modifié par Soeverein, 24 novembre 2009 - 11:21 .

[nuculerman]

how is talking about whether a decision is moral or just advocating a morality, good/evil bar? What a nonsensical statement.

[SithLordExarKun]

Mystranna Kelteel wrote...

It's not a "crime" to execute a guilty man.

Maybe for the more serious crimes.

I wouldn't want to execute a thug that tried to pick pocket me though i would give him a beating. But of course for the more serious things that happens our mind would get clouded and it may affect our decision.

I can understand why alistar wanted loghain dead anyways, if i were in his shoes or were really in that situation i doubt i would let him off so easily, he did afterall cause one hell of a mess for people to clear up...



I executed loghain in one playthrough and spared him in another and i find his character rather complex.

He believes what he does is right and the best for his country, thats in HIS point of view but that doesn't make it right and the vast majority of us would disagree with his beliefs, its like both Emperor Palpatine and Adolf hiter, they did what they thought was right, it was their point of view and they believed what they were doing is good, hitler thought he was doing gods work and being "good", palpatine believed that the sith ideology was superior to that of the entire galaxy and he believes that it should dominate and rule over every world, in his eyes he was doing what he believed was "good". Obviously the three of them were treacherous bastards that had selfish motivations which were the driving force behind their actions, them believing they were right doesn't make it right.

The ordering of eamons poisoning, the assasination attempt on the warden, the elves being sold to slavery the allowance of howe tortuing people and the act of letting the king and his army getting overwhelemd by darkspawn is far from justifiable.

Modifié par SithLordExarKun, 24 novembre 2009 - 03:14 .

[Ace Attorney]

Soeverein wrote...

*shrugs*

Seems this discussion has turned purely into RL politics for most people. At that point, it becomes worthless to continue discussing it.

Agreed, even though I was part of it, I see it got out of hand.

Soeverein wrote...

Godwinning a fictional character makes you no better than Jack Thompson or these human rights idiots who've been whining that some video games allow you to commit war crimes.

I for one am glad this game removed the alignment meters and similar **** because it finally means being able to let the game characters grow their own morals that aren't judged based on a RL morality scale. Seems through this discussion that the majority of people still want something like that though.

me hates Moral Absolutism

I too like morality being blurred, as it leads to discussions as these. But at the end of the day, it is a Video Game, go nuts, kill or role play a saint, it is fictional (though I tend to act out of character in games myself).

[Count Viceroy]

I personally would probably kill loghain on the spot, but it all depends on the character I'm role playing. A true grey warden would not waste such potential for petty revenge.

[tmp7704]

Count Viceroy wrote...

A true grey warden would not waste such potential for petty revenge.

Of course they would and many did in their playthroughs. Just ask Howe.

[Count Viceroy]

I'm aware that many chose to. But the grey wardens are about victory at all costs. Throwing away a war hero and tactical genious for the sake of revenge is just shooting yourself in the foot.

[Valmy]

tmp7704 wrote...
Of course they would and many did in their playthroughs. Just ask Howe.

One of my characters obessions was vengeance against Howe...but I still would have conscripted him and sent him against the Blight if he had surrendered.  I mean essentially what I offered Loghain was a redemptive death sentence in all but name yet Allistair still stormed out.

I prefer Alistair over Loghain, I mean Allistair is not a paranoid ruthless jerk, but he essentially puts his desire for vengeance over his country and his duty to the Grey Wardens...oh and to me.  He didn't even eventually forgive me and return to Ferelden after Loghain ends up sacrificing himself.  What a loser I hope he enjoys drinking himself to death.

[tmp7704]

Which is why the selective sparing one guy and trying to reason this is for the greater good comes across so grating and make the whole Landsmeet sequence feel so forced/broken. Up to that point the game considers it perfectly normal, acceptable and expected to waste valuable assets for nothing but personal reasons, generally giving you no option to actually act like the Grey Warden supposedly would... and then out of sudden it's a heel face turn and "we must be reasonable, we absolutely cannot afford to kill this one guy", and the one person who still acts consistently with how everyone else have acted up to this point (i.e. being petty and taking it personally) gets derided for it? Talk about double standards...

Modifié par tmp7704, 25 novembre 2009 - 04:01 .

[Valmy]

tmp7704 wrote...

Which is why the selective sparing one guy and trying to reason this is for the greater good comes across so grating and make the whole Landsmeet sequence feel so forced/broken.

Well I spared Zevran for the same reason.  They are the only two guys who surrendered and offered their services.  If they do not surrender I cannot be selective about it.  I guess I do not see this inconsistency.  I spared everybody's life I had the option to...well except the demon thing living in the old Grey Warden's body in Warden Keep but that is different.

Modifié par Valmy, 25 novembre 2009 - 04:05 .

[Ace Attorney]

Valmy wrote...

tmp7704 wrote...

Which is why the selective sparing one guy and trying to reason this is for the greater good comes across so grating and make the whole Landsmeet sequence feel so forced/broken.

Well I spared Zevran for the same reason.  They are the only two guys who surrendered and offered their services.  If they do not surrender I cannot be selective about it.  I guess I do not see this inconsistency.  I spared everybody's life I had the option to...well except the demon thing living in the old Grey Warden's body in Warden Keep but that is different.

Oh wow, pretty good analogy, lol

[tmp7704]

My elf spared Zevran purely because someone (Leliana i think?) yelled to stop, and then he was really good about the blatant flattery and well, because he was the only other elf around and kind of piqued her interest

But from pragmatic point of view it made next to no sense to actually let him live -- he demonstrated to be a poor assassin by failing to actually kill me despite having advantage of ambush and the bigger numbers, his loyalty is clearly questionable and well, i cannot actually stop the Blight if i'm dead becaues the guy i foolishly trusted double-crosses me and stabs me in the back. A real Grey Warden would simply kill him precisely because he's a potential threat to what the Wardens' goal ultimately is.

edit: by the inconsistency i mean the game not giving the option to enlist these you defeat except for couple of special cases. I don't mean anything as excessive as making them extra companions, they wouldn't even need to actually show on the field in the final battle. (in fact it'd make sense if some just screwed you in the end) But just consistently having the option to spare the lives in exchange for the service would make the whole Grey Warden business less of just the plot device, imo.

Modifié par tmp7704, 25 novembre 2009 - 04:15 .

[Count Viceroy]

Well, you'd end up with an army of untrustworthy bad guys at your heels though. Might be a bit ... messy.

[Alphidius]

While I felt Loghain was developed slightly better than Allister, RPing my "Lawful Neutral" character, Loghain could not escape being guilty of High Treason against the King & Ferelden so he needed to die in my current game...

Maybe we might see both Loghain & Allister in the next DA game where the canon story tells that Loghain was spared and Allister picks himself up as a drunk when the Orlesians attack or something...
I'm hoping for that at least...

[Count Viceroy]

He doesn't always end up a drunk you know. He can still be king even if you spare loghain.

[Valmy]

Count Viceroy wrote...

He doesn't always end up a drunk you know. He can still be king even if you spare loghain.

Only if you choose one specific option during his personal quest.

[Alphidius]

Count Viceroy wrote...

He doesn't always end up a drunk you know. He can still be king even if you spare loghain.

True...
But it sounds better when you "bump" into a drunk Allister in Denerim or Redcliffe & needed to persuade him to join the team like the good ol' days...
Plus if it has to do with the Orlesians, Loghain's back-arch story of his past battles with them might put him in different light... I like to see things from both sides of the coin...

[Count Viceroy]

Yeah it's pretty frustrating that one line can have such rampant consequences.

[Hurkaleez]

Craig McDermott wrote...

Loghain was a true badass and Alistair is nothing but a ****. Loghain made the decisions he did out of necessity. He had to make the hard choices and was willing to live with the consequences.

Meanwhile Alistair prances around avoiding his noble lineage and whining and crying whenever the PC does what he needs to do to save the kingdom.

True true

[RunCDFirst]

tmp7704 wrote...
edit: by the inconsistency i mean the game not giving the option to enlist these you defeat except for couple of special cases.

You can enlist the female blood mage during the Broken Circle as well. I haven't seen anything come of that yet (and don't expect to either), but you can spare her life so long as she pledges to fight the darkspawn. The elf in the tavern at Redcliffe can be 'spared' for his actions against Redcliffe and sent to fight with the militia during the undead attack on the town. Sten can be spared from his fate to be released into your custody to fight against the darkspawn. Zevran can be spared by your hand to fight along your side. Loghain can be spared to fight the archdemon.

I think the game's actually pretty consistent. 

[tmp7704]

Count Viceroy wrote...

Well, you'd end up with an army of untrustworthy bad guys at your heels though. Might be a bit ... messy.

Absolutely; which puts into perspective the supposedly great idea that's turning Loghain into a Warden. After all he's hardly above the status of untrustworthy bad guy himself.