240 réponses à ce sujet

[SandTrout]

Although reliable numbers on the homosexual population are irritatingly difficult to aquire, the best numbers I could come across have the homosexual population in the us below 2% and the total of self-identified homosexual, bisexual, and transgender sitting at about 3.8%. even considering that another ~10% from the study might be considered 'bi-curious', this means that setting up ME3 a an 'everyone is bi/gay' is stretching it a bit, and at least in terms of socio-political aspects, the writers seem to want to favor plausibility.

I am not personally invested

Considering that some sort of same sex relationship has been hinted at, if not confirmed (not really following the topic that closely in general), this leave it open to everyone's guess as to which characters might be 'coming out' in ME3. I am intentionally omiting all asari characters because they are inherently outside of the norm due to being mono-gendered, Shepard is or isn't based on your say-so, Krogan characters are excluded for reasons of disturbing implications, and geth are asexual. What follows is my best guess, as any of them could turn out to be bi if BioWare says so.

Ashley WIlliams: Probably not. Seemed put-off by the idea of the Liara threesome. Religion may also play a role, though it is unclear what religion she actually follows.

Kaiden Alenko: Actually, probably not. He mentioned his crush back in BAAT training, and hooks up with femshep. While some claim he has femanine tendencies, I find these accusations lack real evidence, and unintentional femininity is not a reliable indication of sexual orientation.

Tali Zorah: Maybe. She's already looking outside of her own species (and protien type), so it doesn't seem like a stretch to me that she would be open to FemShep as well. She is not presented that way in ME1 or 2, though.

Garrus Vakarian: Doubtful. He seems wierded out by the idea of fooling around with a member of another species, and the only other sexual reationship we know about was with a female turian. However, since he is willing to forgo the species gap with Shep, he might also be willing to ignore the gender one.

Jacob Talor: Probably not. He showed no interest in MaleShep during ME2, and we know that he was in a relationship with Miranda before Lazarus.

Miranda Lawson: Probably not. Previous relationship with Jacob and a desire for a child noted in the Shadow Broker Dossiers present her as most likely a heterosexual.

Jack: Speficically no, though she has had bisexual experiences in the past. She actually thinks that FemShep is flirting with her in ME2 and says that she's not into the 'girls club' thing.

Thane: Doubtful. Same reasoning as Garrus.

Zaeed: Probably homosexual. For one, he shows no interest whatsoever in the opposite gender. Secondly, whenever he talks about going out to bars and nightclubs, he exclusively talks about going out with a group of guys. Third, his grudge against Vido seems to be more than just business differences and attempted murder, and I'm guessing that Vido was Zaeed's 'partner' in more than just running the Blue Suns.

Mordin Solus: Specifically no. Thinks you are flirting with him and explicitly states that he is not interested.

Kasumi Goto: Probably not. Expresses interest in Jacob and her former lover was also a male.

James Vega: Anyone's guess. No known history or interactions to base a guess on.

[Chewin]

Screw this, I want Kaidan!

[CptData]

Actually, you're missing one single idea in your analysis.

Every new Shepard (either fresh or imported) means another alternative universe. So in one universe Ashley isn't homosexual because she fells in love with M!Shep, in another she could be lesbian because she has a thing for F!Shep.

Depends on the universe. Every Shepard is "canon", every alternate universe is "canon", therefore, it's also "canon" all romanceable characters are heterosexual or homosexual depending on Shepards sexual interests.

Modifié par CptData, 30 septembre 2011 - 09:42 .

[Golden Owl]

There are plenty of Bi's who may have a small string of same sex lovers, then fall for someone of the opposite sex....there are also a large enough number of people wh discover their homosexuality through feelings of lack of attraction and arousal through their endeavors with opposite sex pairings... sorry but your analysis has too many holes.

[SandTrout]

CptData wrote...

Actually, you're missing one single idea in your analysis.

Every new Shepard (either fresh or imported) means another alternative universe. So in one universe Ashley isn't homosexual because she fells in love with M!Shep, in another she could be lesbian because she has a thing for F!Shep.

Um, no. The characters have been written they way that they have, and there isn't anything that you can do as FemShep in ME1 to hook up with Ash or to hook up with Kaiden as a Manshep.

Depends on the universe. Every Shepard is "canon", every alternate universe is "canon", therefore, it's also "canon" all romanceable characters are heterosexual or homosexual depending on Shepards sexual interests.

It is only cannon if BioWare chooses to allow it, which so far they havn't. Weather or not Shepard is hetero, bi, or homosexual is up to the player, but the other characters are up to BioWare.

[SandTrout]

Golden Owl wrote...

There are plenty of Bi's who may have a small string of same sex lovers, then fall for someone of the opposite sex....there are also a large enough number of people wh discover their homosexuality through feelings of lack of attraction and arousal through their endeavors with opposite sex pairings... sorry but your analysis has too many holes.

Which is why most are not stated as absolutes.

[Athayniel]

It's been said before but I'll help drive the point home. In any particular playthrough the sexuality of your squadmates is indeterminate unless you choose to romance them. To argue against all bi LIs on demographics grounds based on the meta-availability of the characters for romance is disingenuous at best.

For instance, my femSheps have absolutely no interest in romancing Garrus, as far as they are concerned he's not even an option that is available let alone one they'd be interested in. Same thing with Thane. Garrus' an Thane's sexuality is of no concern to my femSheps and as such they may as well not be LI at all.

Hooking up with one gender of Shep over another is also not an indication of orientation. dudeShep and femShep do not exist in the same universe. Miranda does not exhibit any overt interest in men while femShep is around, we know she's been in some kind of relationship with Jacob but that doesn't mean she's not attracted to women. Dialogue between LIs and Shepard are virtually identical until one gender or another of Shepard is presented with the option of taking it further. And modded romances have shown that most of them would work just as well s/s as o/s with the appropriate VO additions. It doesn't fundamentally alter their characters in any way. Also, Miranda wanting children is not a sign of heterosexuality. Homosexuals also want children. Stop making such generalisations.

Modifié par Athayniel, 30 septembre 2011 - 10:04 .

[Anwarddyn]

CptData wrote...

Actually, you're missing one single idea in your analysis.

Every new Shepard (either fresh or imported) means another alternative universe. So in one universe Ashley isn't homosexual because she fells in love with M!Shep, in another she could be lesbian because she has a thing for F!Shep.

Depends on the universe. Every Shepard is "canon", every alternate universe is "canon", therefore, it's also "canon" all romanceable characters are heterosexual or homosexual depending on Shepards sexual interests.

That sounds good in theory, but every time I play ME1 Ashley is straight. Carrying on to ME2 Tali, Jack or Miranda won't hook up with me either. So in the "canon" of 1 & 2 they are definitely not bi.

So no, it does not change on every new Shepard unless it is added to the previous two games, which it obviously won't be.

Modifié par Anwarddyn, 30 septembre 2011 - 10:12 .

[Athayniel]

Anwarddyn wrote...

That sounds good in theory, but every time I play ME1 Ashley is straight. Carrying on to ME2 Tali, Jack or Miranda won't hook up with me either. So in the "canon" of 1 & 2 they are definitely not bi.

So no, it does not change on every new Shepard unless it is added to the previous two games, which it obviously won't be.

No, in the canon of ME1 and ME2 you've never been given the option of discovering whether they are bi or not. There is a difference. It's not as if femShep propositioned Miranda and was turned down. She wasn't given the option of propositioning her.

[SandTrout]

Sorry, Athayniel, but I call BS on that line of reasoning. Just because you want to feel that self important doesn't mean that what you perceive fundimentally alters the world. You are correct that sexual orientations of certain characters are irrelevant to certain Shepards, but being irrelevant is not the same as being non-existent.

The only thing that changes between different Shepards is those Shepards and their actions. Other aspects such as sexual orientation of NPCs should not change. For instance: Kelly Chambers is bisexual and xenophilic regardless of the gender of your Shepard. She has been estabished as such as part of her character.

Also, most of my analysis was based on their known history before Shepard ever came into the picture.

Also, Miranda wanting children is not a sign of heterosexuality. Homosexuals also want children. Stop making such generalisations.

My point was more that Miranda would tend more toward heterosexuality because of her desire to have her own child (as opposed to adopting). Is it definative? No, and I knowledge that, but it is simply something I considered. There are also other indications that she is heterosexual, which you apparently ignored.

[SandTrout]

Athayniel wrote...

No, in the canon of ME1 and ME2 you've never been given the option of discovering whether they are bi or not. There is a difference. It's not as if femShep propositioned Miranda and was turned down. She wasn't given the option of propositioning her.

Which is why most of the analysis is in terms of probability. However, since bioware intentionally prevented you from accessing the option of persuing those relationships, we can reasonably assume that the answer would have been 'no'.

I don't care if it's meta-gaming because this is not a discussion from the in-character perspective, it is a litterary analysis trying to prectict how the writers might take it.

[General User]

I tend to think of this issue more in terms finding positive justifications for making established characters into same-sex romance options.  In other words, I'm looking for affirmative reasons to make the change. Or, hell, even just a fig leaf to justify making the change. To my way of thinking there are two can/should be made into same-sex romance options: Kaiden and Jack.

Kaiden really did sort of have "Champ Kind" (after the character in 'Anchorman') moment on Horizon with mShep. It was… awkward. Not only that, but after replaying ME1, the dude stands a little close when you talk to him, I'm just sayin'.

As for Jack, all love to the girl, but let's be honest; she isn't exactly the most emotionally stable member of "Team Shepard" and, as has been mentioned, she has had same-sex relationships in the past. So if she only later came to terms with romantic feelings for fShep I'd be willing to accept it without too much scrutiny.

In general, I think "expanding romance options" is a good idea, but vital to that must be a positive, affirmative reason for each individual character to do so, otherwise the damage done to the integrity of that character simply isn't worth it.

Modifié par General User, 30 septembre 2011 - 10:30 .

[CroGamer002]

Zaeed had a relationship with an Asari.

As for the girls club from Jack? Wasn't she talking about being friends?

[Fenris_13]

Chewin3 wrote...

Screw this, I want Kaidan!

[ElitePinecone]

Chewin3 wrote...

Screw this, I want Kaidan!

Edit: Also, just a heads-up:

Modifié par ElitePinecone, 30 septembre 2011 - 10:32 .

[General User]

Fenris_13 wrote...

Chewin3 wrote...

Screw this, I want Kaidan!

What are your opinions on the other characters, or on the issue in general?

Does your interest in this matter begin and end with Kaidan?

Modifié par General User, 30 septembre 2011 - 10:33 .

[SandTrout]

@Mesina2,

Must have missed that piece of dialogue. Assessing regarding Asari is still screwy, though.

@ElitePinecone,

That is still very vague other than confirming that there are same-sex relationships in the game, which was an assumption that I was operating on anyways. It says nothing of who might be involved in a same-sex relationship.

[Athayniel]

SandTrout wrote...

Sorry, Athayniel, but I call BS on that line of reasoning. Just because you want to feel that self important doesn't mean that what you perceive fundimentally alters the world. You are correct that sexual orientations of certain characters are irrelevant to certain Shepards, but being irrelevant is not the same as being non-existent.

I didn't say irrelevant, I said indeterminate. Feel free to believe that any character that you don't romance is straight. I do for most of them. Except Zaeed. He only has eyes for Jessie.

SandTrout wrote...

The only thing that changes between different Shepards is those Shepards and their actions. Other aspects such as sexual orientation of NPCs should not change. For instance: Kelly Chambers is bisexual and xenophilic regardless of the gender of your Shepard. She has been estabished as such as part of her character.

Absolutely, Kelly comes straight out and says she's bisexual. Jacob doesn't say he's straight though. Just that he and Miranda had a thing one time. There's a big difference between an outright confirmation of straightness by either rejecting a particular gender Shepard's advances – which we never see – or by verbally stating their orientation as an absolute – which we also never see.

SandTrout wrote...



Also, most of my analysis was based on their known history before Shepard ever came into the picture.

Also, Miranda wanting children is not a sign of heterosexuality. Homosexuals also want children. Stop making such generalisations.

My point was more that Miranda would tend more toward heterosexuality because of her desire to have her own child (as opposed to adopting). Is it definative? No, and I knowledge that, but it is simply something I considered. There are also other indications that she is heterosexual, which you apparently ignored.

All people who want children are more likely to want a child from their genes, orientation is not a factor in this. Also, adoption is not the only method for a lesbian to have children. It's not even the only method for a gay man, there is surrogacy, future-space-IVF-analogue, good old fashioned turkey basters and luck when it comes down to it. Desire to adopt a child is also not an indication of orientation. There are heterosexuals who are happy to adopt even if they do not have fertility problems. Does that somehow make it more likely that they are gay?

[Chewin]

General User wrote...
What are your opinions on the other characters, or on the issue in general?

Does your interest in this matter begin and end with Kaidan?

It's of simple curiosity, nothing more.

[SandTrout]

I didn't say irrelevant, I said indeterminate. Feel free to believe that any character that you don't romance is straight. I do for most of them. Except Zaeed. He only has eyes for Jessie.

You are incorrect. It is not indeterminate for us, the audience. It may be indeterminate from Shepard's point of view, but it isn't from ours.

I concede the biological child argument, but I still point out that we have proof of heterosexual relationships and are distinctly lacking any evidence of homosexual relationships in most of the current characters, which means that they are probably heterosexual.

[SilentNukee]

Doesn't Zaeed talk about that Asari chick?

Anyway, no one is 100% straight or homosexual. Everyone is somewhere in between. There is always a chance for any character to be bi/gay as they never specifically said their sexual orientation. (Except for Jack, depending on how you see it.)
Though this has been repeated a million times so I'll just stop now.

[Wittand25]

SandTrout wrote...

Athayniel wrote...

No, in the canon of ME1 and ME2 you've never been given the option of discovering whether they are bi or not. There is a difference. It's not as if femShep propositioned Miranda and was turned down. She wasn't given the option of propositioning her.

Which is why most of the analysis is in terms of probability. However, since bioware intentionally prevented you from accessing the option of persuing those relationships, we can reasonably assume that the answer would have been 'no'.

I don't care if it's meta-gaming because this is not a discussion from the in-character perspective, it is a litterary analysis trying to prectict how the writers might take it.

Tali, Garrus.
What was your point again ?
Both go from neither they or Shepard is even thinking about it, and romance does not come up in any way in ME1 to full LI in ME2.

Also there is already a thread discussing same sex romances so this discussion should take place there to keep the forum a bit easier to navigate.

Modifié par Wittand25, 30 septembre 2011 - 10:59 .

[Errol Dnamyx]

SilentNukee wrote...


 There is always a chance for any character to be bi/gay as they never specifically said their sexual orientation. 

Actions > words.

[Athayniel]

SandTrout wrote...

Athayniel wrote...

No, in the canon of ME1 and ME2 you've never been given the option of discovering whether they are bi or not. There is a difference. It's not as if femShep propositioned Miranda and was turned down. She wasn't given the option of propositioning her.

Which is why most of the analysis is in terms of probability. However, since bioware intentionally prevented you from accessing the option of persuing those relationships, we can reasonably assume that the answer would have been 'no'.

It's a reasonable assumption. At least as reasonable as assuming that they would have said 'yes'.

Making deductive assumptions about fiction is fraught with perils. In ME humanity can be assumed to be somewhat more liberal, somewhat more diverse, this has been stated to be the case by the writers. However, Miranda is only as complete a character as she is written to be, and pertinant facts about her are subject to change until they are actually revealed. After which their revision would indeed be a 'retcon'. So even if we assume that homosexuality is no more pervasive in the ME universe than it is in ours, using that to deduce the orientation of any particular character is... futile.

SandTrout wrote...

I don't care if it's meta-gaming because this is not a discussion from the in-character perspective, it is a litterary analysis trying to prectict how the writers might take it.

Again... a futile business. The writers won't use in-universe demographics when deciding whether a character is available for s/s romancing, and since peronality is not in any way indicative of orientation... when it comes to bisexuality it is best to repurpose this economics adage, 'past performance is not indicative of future results'.

[Athayniel]

SandTrout wrote...

I didn't say irrelevant, I said indeterminate. Feel free to believe that any character that you don't romance is straight. I do for most of them. Except Zaeed. He only has eyes for Jessie.

You are incorrect. It is not indeterminate for us, the audience. It may be indeterminate from Shepard's point of view, but it isn't from ours.

True, but our point of view as the audience is irrelevant from the perspective of story
continuity. As long as each individual playthrough is internally
consistant it does not matter that in dudeShep's playthrough he romanced
a straight Miranda, while in femShep's playthrough she romanced a
bisexual Miranda.

SandTrout wrote...
I concede the biological child argument, but I still point out that we have proof of heterosexual relationships and are distinctly lacking any evidence of homosexual relationships in most of the current characters, which means that they are probably heterosexual.

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.