240 réponses à ce sujet

[Xilizhra]

NICKjnp wrote...

It does break traits. They are hetero in both games.

They're only hetero options. The situation is different.

[Kaiser Shepard]

Athayniel wrote...

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

Ah, in that case I still stand by what I said.

Without reading my post or responding to my argument? Okay. That tells me a great deal about you.

Where did I say I didn't read it? And I responded with saying what you just quoted.

Xilizhra wrote...

That's your own neurosis, not a weakness of the system.

No, it's a system that overrepresents and almost even promotes the weak.

jlb524 wrote...

I suppose all the ME2 and DA:O squad mates were soooo unique.

'Oh look, another hetero LI!'

'Oh look, another apparently frigid woman only the right man can 'warm up'!'

That's just ME2, Origins did have a good amount of variety.

And of course only one of the right sex can warm up a character in a series in which romances are taking precedence over more platonic relationships.

[SnowHeart1]

Xilizhra wrote...

It comes down to the fact that most people don't want everyone to be openly bisexual. This was probably my biggest grief with Dragon Age 2. Yeah from a fanservice perspective it's good, but from a story and analytical point it's awkward, unlikely, and for some people very uncomfortable. It simply doesn't work to have everybody bisexual with little to no explanation.

So we're having biphobia as a valid reason now?

And now I think we're twisting people's words. That's not what he said at all.

[Xilizhra]

No, it's a system that overrepresents and almost even promotes the weak.

The weak? Elaborate.

And now I think we're twisting people's words. That's not what he said at all.

Hm.

for some people very uncomfortable.

Riiight.

[Kaiser Shepard]

Athayniel wrote...

Can you imagine the story possibilities and drama inherent in Morrigan asking her femWarden lover to find her a man to impregnate her? Or in Alistair telling his gay lover that he has to marry Anora and become King of Ferelden?

How is that cheapening the characters or story?

Jubileus forbid a character being restricted to one sexuality, even if it's directly related to the story... 

Xilizhra wrote...

So we're having biphobia as a valid reason now?

As opposed to your heterophobia?

[Aeowyn]

Xilizhra wrote...

No, it's a system that overrepresents and almost even promotes the weak.

The weak? Elaborate.

And now I think we're twisting people's words. That's not what he said at all.

Hm.

for some people very uncomfortable.

Riiight.

Some people become uncomfortable if someone of the same gender hits on them. It doesn't necessarily mean they're homophobes.

[Athayniel]

SnowHeart1 wrote...
My opinion only, but I happen to think sexual orientation is a pretty important part of an individual's personality. It has certainly shaped how I view the world and how I interact with people. Is it a sole defining characteristic? No. But is it important? Yes. You may disagree. But, with this underlying belief, I feel that once you start changing this, you wind up with a weaker, more plastic and less believable character. I think you can do it once, but if you do it more than that you wind up with the "everyone is bi" silliness that was DA2. For that game and as an experiment in game design, and with completely new characters, I was absolutely in favor of it. But ME3 will have pre-established characters that you're going to be tinkering with. And if, all of a sudden, everyone who was ambiguous is now bi... I find that not very credible and to be a sign of weak design. Again, my opinion only.

I have not yet played DA2, still on DA:O, but it is my understanding that only Isabella is at all forthcoming with her bisexuality. The rest never mention anything like it and even Anders only ever talked about checking out women in Awakenings. So how is that 'everyone is bi'?

As far as I can tell that's Isabella is bi, Anders, Fenris and Merril are whatever sexuality which allows them to be romanced by Hawke, and Sebastian is het. Are the rest of your group openly bisexual? Is bisexuality common and openly expressed in the Free Marches? Or is this all from your meta-perspective that you as a player know that Fenris will totally do guys if given the chance. Am I incorrect in my belief that in any given het!Hawke playthrough, only Isabella is openly bisexual, and Anders only hits on m!Hawke if you don't give him what for when he nearly gets you and your entire party killed on an attack on the Chantry?

[Xilizhra]

As opposed to your heterophobia?

I'm not made uncomfortable by the existence of straight characters in my vicinity.

Some people become uncomfortable if someone of the same gender hits on them. It doesn't necessarily mean they're homophobes.

Something only Anders did. And I had to have my character hit on Jacob in ME2. My sympathy levels are not high.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 30 septembre 2011 - 02:56 .

[ladyvader]

NICKjnp wrote...

It does break traits. They are hetero in both games.

Please tell us where they actually said that in game?  Just because the mechanics of the game itself didn't allow it, doesn't mean character 'X' isn't bi or gay or straight for that matter.  It's never mentioned in game what character sexual preference.

[SnowHeart1]

 Chip? Shoulder? Check.

Read in the context of the entire post, it's pretty clear what he meant and is hardly a unique or oppressive view.

[Xilizhra]

SnowHeart1 wrote...

 Chip? Shoulder? Check.

Read in the context of the entire post, it's pretty clear what he meant and is hardly a unique or oppressive view.

It's certainly not unique.

[Zkyire]

ladyvader wrote...

Stardusk78 wrote...

Can we at least agree that most gay males find breasts and vaginas physically and psychologically disgusting?

No

I'm a heterosexual male and don't really care about breasts and find vaginas disgusting.

To be honest I'm not sure why I'm attracted to women, but I am. *shrug*

[Aeowyn]

Xilizhra wrote...

As opposed to your heterophobia?

I'm not made uncomfortable by the existence of straight characters in my vicinity.

Some people become uncomfortable if someone of the same gender hits on them. It doesn't necessarily mean they're homophobes.

Something only Anders did. And I had to have my character hit on Jacob in ME2. My sympathy levels are not high.

Your character never hits on Jacob unless you choose the option to. Bad VA =/= hitting on, and frankly Xil it a really cheap reply.

Modifié par Aeowyn, 30 septembre 2011 - 02:58 .

[General User]

Xilizhra wrote...

General User wrote...

The problem with using the "but they never explicitly said their sexual orientation" argument to make a previously heterosexual romance option available to both sexes is that it's only good for one use, tops. 

What I mean is, while that argument could be used to provide a rationale (in the cases of some characters, a paper thin rationale) for making any romance option available to both sexes, using that argument for more than one character quickly descends into absurdity.  Cheapening characters and players alike.

ME3 is in a uniquely problematic situation. It's not usual that Bioware only realizes that it's safe to institute gay romances in the third installment. It's a tragic anomaly, and one that's not likely to happen again; you don't need to worry about any trends.

However, I don't believe that it cheapens anyone in any case.

What, me worry? Of course at least one gay romance option should have been included in Mass Effect from the beginning (and it should have been Kaidan), I don't think anyone is seriously arguing against homosexual content. Maybe they are, and I'm just not taking them seriously (a policy I have no intention of changing). 

What I'm talking about is individual reasons for individual characters.  Whether it was intentional or not, Kaiden's… unusual behavior on Horizon does a basis for making him a s/s option in ME3, Jack's in much the same boat. But the others, I just don't see the rationale behind the change.

As for cheapening, I'm sorry, but I have to think that applying a blanket policy to all (or even most) romance options without compelling individualized reasons to do so makes those characters involved (Shepard included) further from being vibrant characters in a compelling narrative and closer to being mere props for our amusement.

Athayniel wrote...
Why? Since it would be true in any of those cases. It's not a nuclear option that can only be used once. And in any case, even if all LIs were available for romancing by both genders, in any given playthrough there would be one LI, possibly two or three if your Shep is a playah, who could be potentially bisexual. The rest would be of indeterminate sexuality. Any player who claims that a character being s/s in someone else's game detracted from their own experience in their own game is going to have to justify their position with concrete examples of where the story broke down or wasn't coherent.

That's my just point! That argument can be used successfully (even if only barely) for any character. It's only when you start using it for two, or three, or four characters that things start getting silly.

See, I think you and I have a fundamental disagreement about what a Mass Effect character is and should be. I see them as being much closer to characters in a book or movies, or any other work of fiction. They have their own histories and pasts, their own likes and dislikes, their own virtues, their own failings, and yes, even their own sexual identities. I like that uniqueness, that individuality. It's what makes these characters so alive, and it's what makes me a fan of the franchise.  Seeing an aspect of that uniqueness simply written off is... frustrating. 

[Xilizhra]

Your character never hits on Jacob unless you choose the option to. Bad VA =/= hitting on, and frankly Xil it a really cheap reply.

Well, boo hoo. I've noticed a distinct lack of lesbians complaining about being hit on by Anders, despite the fact that we should have just as much reason to as straight men. I wonder where the difference comes from?

As for cheapening, I'm sorry, but I have to think that applying a blanket policy to all (or even most) romance options without compelling individualized reasons to do so makes those characters involved (Shepard included) further from being vibrant characters in a compelling narrative and closer to being mere props for our amusement.

Then give them reasons. It has nothing to do with orientation.

[Terraforming]

Athayniel wrote...

I have not yet played DA2, still on DA:O, but it is my understanding that only Isabella is at all forthcoming with her bisexuality. The rest never mention anything like it and even Anders only ever talked about checking out women in Awakenings. So how is that 'everyone is bi'?

As far as I can tell that's Isabella is bi, Anders, Fenris and Merril are whatever sexuality which allows them to be romanced by Hawke, and Sebastian is het. Are the rest of your group openly bisexual? Is bisexuality common and openly expressed in the Free Marches? Or is this all from your meta-perspective that you as a player know that Fenris will totally do guys if given the chance. Am I incorrect in my belief that in any given het!Hawke playthrough, only Isabella is openly bisexual, and Anders only hits on m!Hawke if you don't give him what for when he nearly gets you and your entire party killed on an attack on the Chantry?

Isabela is bold with her sexuality in the game. She came onto my female Hawke twice within the first loyalty mission with her. The problem that people (and by people, I'm just going to say it: male players) have with the game is that Anders hits on a male character if you are nice to him for three (I think) consecutive responses. I think him taking initiative freaked a lot of these gamers out and it was compounded by the fact that the only way to turn down his flirt is being a little snippy and earing rivalry points with him (which did suck, I'll admit). Honestly, it feels like the concern over bisexual characters has a lot to do with concern over characters being like Anders and initating the flirt.

Modifié par Terraforming, 30 septembre 2011 - 03:06 .

[SnowHeart1]

Athayniel wrote...

I have not yet played DA2, still on DA:O, but it is my understanding that only Isabella is at all forthcoming with her bisexuality. The rest never mention anything like it and even Anders only ever talked about checking out women in Awakenings. So how is that 'everyone is bi'?

As far as I can tell that's Isabella is bi, Anders, Fenris and Merril are whatever sexuality which allows them to be romanced by Hawke, and Sebastian is het. Are the rest of your group openly bisexual? Is bisexuality common and openly expressed in the Free Marches? Or is this all from your meta-perspective that you as a player know that Fenris will totally do guys if given the chance. Am I incorrect in my belief that in any given het!Hawke playthrough, only Isabella is openly bisexual, and Anders only hits on m!Hawke if you don't give him what for when he nearly gets you and your entire party killed on an attack on the Chantry?

I've only played DA2 twice, and have not touched it sense. IMO, it was kind of a disaster. But look... you're kind of missing my point. Those were essentially all new characters. Aside from Anders, who only appeared in some DLC, and Isabella, who was basically a cameo in DAO, they didn't have much backstory. More importantly... they were written from the beginning to be the way they were. So it worked. With ME, it's a different situation. IMO, there's only so far you can stretch those initial impressions of the characters before you start breaking the immersion, which is a huge part of the ME franchise.

Anyway, toes are getting stepped on, people are seeing oppression at every turn of phrase, and the heat is, frankly, getting way too hot in here and all out of proportion. You got your opinion, go ahead and argue for it if you like. I'm back to lurking in this thread as it's not worth getting my panties in a twist over.

[Athayniel]

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

Athayniel wrote...

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

Ah, in that case I still stand by what I said.

Without reading my post or responding to my argument? Okay. That tells me a great deal about you.

Where did I say I didn't read it? And I responded with saying what you just quoted.

So when I wrote that s/s supporters don't make assumptions on a character's sexuality one way or the other, your repsonse is still that s/s supporters assume all characters to be bisexual. Okay. That still tells me a great deal about you.

[jlb524]

NICKjnp wrote...

@jlb524

You are failing to understand my argument. They were NOT bisexual in the previous games.

You can't say that for a fact.

Making the out-of-universe argument that they weren't available for both genders in ME1/ME2 is not the same as trying to make an in-universe argument for their heterosexuality.

NICKjnp wrote...
If they were going to be bisexual then they would have been presented as bisexual (which didn't happen). If the writers make them bisexual in ME3 then they will have changed their sexual orientation in the third game. That is no longer the same character. Remember how frustrated people were with how Liara was changed between ME1&2? The same will be for whomever they retcon in ME3.

Some welcomed the change.  'Change' isn't always bad and they've changed most characters from ME1 (look at Ash/Kaidan now as Spectres).   If you have a problem with the direction they take a character, then I guess you're out of luck.

happy_daiz wrote...

As long as I can continue my straight romance with Kaidan in ME3, I'm happy. [smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/love.png[/smilie]

And by that, I'm saying that I don't mind sharing Kaidan with everyone. If it comes to light that he has an interest in men too, well, that's his right. Free will is a wonderful thing. My femSheps won't know, and won't care.

My god, how did I get sucked in to one of these debates?

Thanks, a reasonable voice for once!  

Modifié par jlb524, 30 septembre 2011 - 03:04 .

[Kaiser Shepard]

Xilizhra wrote...

No, it's a system that overrepresents and almost even promotes the weak.

The weak? Elaborate.

Minorities.

BioWare is rapidly approaching the point at which Western society's most prominent weakness became apparent, the point at which the many have to take extreme caution in dealing with the vocal and/or violent few, or even appear to bend to the latter's whims.

Xilizhra wrote...

Something only Anders did. And I had to have my character hit on Jacob in ME2. My sympathy levels are not high.

Because you wouldn't want to prevent the same awkwardness from happening to others?

ladyvader wrote...

NICKjnp wrote...

It does break traits. They are hetero in both games.

Please tell us where they actually said that in game?  Just because the mechanics of the game itself didn't allow it, doesn't mean character 'X' isn't bi or gay or straight for that matter.  It's never mentioned in game what character sexual preference.

Might as well assume Nessie and the giant spaghetti monster exist because nothing points to the contrary...

[Zkyire]

jlb524 wrote...

Some welcomed the change.  'Change' isn't always bad and they've changed most characters from ME1 (look at Ash/Kaidan now as Spectres).   If you have a problem with the direction they take a character, then I guess you're out of luck.

That's character development. Progressing the story.

Having the characters only hit on male shep in ME1 and ME2, and then suddenly hit on femshep in ME3 is not character development; that's fanservice.

[jlb524]

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

That's just ME2, Origins did have a good amount of variety.

And of course only one of the right sex can warm up a character in a series in which romances are taking precedence over more platonic relationships.

Origins had variety?  Morrigan was a rip-off of Viconia from BG2.

The 'frigid woman' comment was directed at her, actually.

Your second comment makes zero sense.

IEatWhatIPoo wrote...

Having the characters only hit on male shep in ME1 and ME2, and then suddenly hit on femshep in ME3 is not character development; that's fanservice.

You're using an out of universe argument here, though.

FemShep doesn't know that 'Character X' hit on MaleShep.

Modifié par jlb524, 30 septembre 2011 - 03:07 .

[Kaiser Shepard]

Athayniel wrote...

So when I wrote that s/s supporters don't make assumptions on a character's sexuality one way or the other, your repsonse is still that s/s supporters assume all characters to be bisexual. Okay. That still tells me a great deal about you.

Sure, not all s/s'ers do it, but it certainly appears like the majority of them does.

[ElitePinecone]

General User wrote...

As for cheapening, I'm sorry, but I have to think that applying a blanket policy to all (or even most) romance options without compelling individualized reasons to do so makes those characters involved (Shepard included) further from being vibrant characters in a compelling narrative and closer to being mere props for our amusement.
 

I'm confident that the (few) formerly-ambiguous ME/ME2 characters who may be bisexual in ME3 will have compelling individualised reasons for that being so. 

The writing team have been pretty transparent that they're ensuring everything works properly, and for the moment at least I'm taking them at their word. 

ME3 won't feature 'everybody suddenly bi' because, while technically possible and probably preferable for fan entertainment, it would both test the boundaries of credibility and lead to the fury of a thousand disenfranchised straight teenage boys. 

That being said, I fully expect at least a few characters to be available. All evidence points to some characters from previous games being open to both genders in ME3. 

[Xilizhra]

BioWare is rapidly approaching the point at which Western society's most prominent weakness became apparent, the point at which the many have to take extreme caution in dealing with the vocal and/or violent few, or even appear to bend to the latter's whims.

Well, apparently they know to ignore the vocal/violent few on your side of the debate. If you presume to speak for the "majority..." don't.

Because you wouldn't want to prevent the same awkwardness from happening to others?

If it'll decrease the whining levels, sure.