240 réponses à ce sujet

[ElitePinecone]

IEatWhatIPoo wrote...

That's character development. Progressing the story.

Having the characters only hit on male shep in ME1 and ME2, and then suddenly hit on femshep in ME3 is not character development; that's fanservice.

Mr. Hudson would seem to be a fan of fanservice, so to speak.

one of the big ones was Garrus, people just loved Garrus and there was a love of interest in having a romance with Garrus. So we thought, "Let's try this in Mass Effect 2." If people want to have a romance with this bird-like guy with an exoskeleton, then okay.

[General User]

Xilizhra wrote...
Then give them reasons. It has nothing to do with orientation.

I'm not 100% sure what you mean. I hope we're on the same page.

But when looking for reasons, you can't do it going forward, you have to look back. A whole ship full of full-grown people, aliens, and talking robots who suddenly question their sexuality upon being confronted with the awesomeness that is Shepard is very much in "silly" (not to mention "awkward") territory.

[jtav]

Here's the thing: the developers have said outright that it doesn't make sense to do purely gay LIs from a resource standpoint. A player playing a heterosexual Shep will never have to worry about having the option of romancing any of the five opposite-sex LI. A person wishing to roleplay a homosexual Shep--well, hope you like the one option you have. If I as straight female can romance who I please, why shouldn't a gay man or lesbian have the same level of choice?

[Kaiser Shepard]

jlb524 wrote...

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

That's just ME2, Origins did have a good amount of variety.

And of course only one of the right sex can warm up a character in a series in which romances are taking precedence over more platonic relationships.

Origins had variety?  Morrigan was a rip-off of Viconia from BG2.

The 'frigid woman' comment was directed at her, actually.

Your second comment makes zero sense.

Interseries variety is a lot to ask for.

And I thought you were referring to Miranda, after which I'd argued that ME2's main flaw in character interaction is that you can do little more than scratch the surface of a character when not interested in or able to romance said character.

[Athayniel]

General User wrote...

That's my just point! That argument can be used successfully (even if only barely) for any character. It's only when you start using it for two, or three, or four characters that things start getting silly.

See, I think you and I have a fundamental disagreement about what a Mass Effect character is and should be. I see them as being much closer to characters in a book or movies, or any other work of fiction. They have their own histories and pasts, their own likes and dislikes, their own virtues, their own failings, and yes, even their own sexual identities. I like that uniqueness, that individuality. It's what makes these characters so alive, and it's what makes me a fan of the franchise.  Seeing an aspect of that uniqueness simply written off is... frustrating. 

I agree with all of that, apart from the thought that making all the characters heterosexual somehow makes them unique. I know that's not exactly what you said. Your argument is that their sexual identity is part of what makes them unique and that's a fine argument. Except for any given playthrough we know nothing about most of their sexual identities and next to nothing about those we have any information on. It simply isn't part of the story. So in one dudeShep playthrough Miranda is a straight woman who's found a man she can try to get into a serious relationship with. In a femShep playthrough she's a bisexual woman who's met someone she can possibly commit to in spite of that possibly making it harder for her to bear her own children.

Your argument is that they are characters in a book. My argument is that they are characters in several different books and aspects of them can change based on the choices of the person reading them. Remember, Miranda can be loyal or disloyal to Shep, she can quit Cerberus at the end or not. None of these things about Miranda is at all set in stone.

I think the characters being so dynamic is what's so great about games like Mass Effect.

Modifié par Athayniel, 30 septembre 2011 - 03:20 .

[ladyvader]

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

No, it's a system that overrepresents and almost even promotes the weak.

The weak? Elaborate.

Minorities.

BioWare is rapidly approaching the point at which Western society's most prominent weakness became apparent, the point at which the many have to take extreme caution in dealing with the vocal and/or violent few, or even appear to bend to the latter's whims.

Xilizhra wrote...

Something only Anders did. And I had to have my character hit on Jacob in ME2. My sympathy levels are not high.

Because you wouldn't want to prevent the same awkwardness from happening to others?

ladyvader wrote...

NICKjnp wrote...

It does break traits. They are hetero in both games.

Please tell us where they actually said that in game?  Just because the mechanics of the game itself didn't allow it, doesn't mean character 'X' isn't bi or gay or straight for that matter.  It's never mentioned in game what character sexual preference.

Might as well assume Nessie and the giant spaghetti monster exist because nothing points to the contrary...

There you go assuming again.  Which is all you do. 

No one's sexual preference is mentioned in game.  People do grow and change over time.  That is a simple fact you refuse to see.

[jlb524]

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

Interseries variety is a lot to ask for.

And I thought you were referring to Miranda, after which I'd argued that ME2's main flaw in character interaction is that you can do little more than scratch the surface of a character when not interested in or able to romance said character.

...and the DA2 LIs weren't varied just because they were all bi?

There was only one blood mage, you know.

By your logic, the flaw of ME2 is that they are all heterosexual.

I'm having difficulty taking you seriously.

jtav wrote...

Here's the thing: the developers have said outright that it doesn't make sense to do purely gay LIs from a resource standpoint. A player playing a heterosexual Shep will never have to worry about having the option of romancing any of the five opposite-sex LI. A person wishing to roleplay a homosexual Shep--well, hope you like the one option you have. If I as straight female can romance who I please, why shouldn't a gay man or lesbian have the same level of choice?

Yes...let's see if someone will actually address this.

Modifié par jlb524, 30 septembre 2011 - 03:14 .

[Valdrane78]

SandTrout wrote...

Also, Miranda wanting children is not a sign of heterosexuality. Homosexuals also want children. Stop making such generalisations.

My point was more that Miranda would tend more toward heterosexuality because of her desire to have her own child (as opposed to adopting). Is it definative? No, and I knowledge that, but it is simply something I considered. There are also other indications that she is heterosexual, which you apparently ignored.

I agree with you on miranda, she is heterosexual.  If you read her SB dossier, she is on a dating extranet site looking for men, to possibly have sex with.  It is never said outright, but she does ask them their medical history and then tells them where to meet her.

I can see both sides of the arguement here though, and I can summarize it in one sentence.

Just because they don't say they are bi or gay, doesn't mean that they aren't.

On one hand, they don't outright say their sexuality, they just don't "hook up" with a memeber of the same sex during your gameplay (unless you modded it). 
On the othe rhand, yes they did "hook up" with someone of the opposite sex.  But hey, whois to say they wont with a member of the same sex later on down the road.

It's a revolving door arguement and serves no purpose.  We have no absolute proof of either arguement with certain characters, and absolute proof of others.  Personally, I have no use for s/s relationships as I am heterosexual and I have no attraction to same sex characters, but some do and they deserve to be able to explore that in a game meant for everyone.

Modifié par Valdrane78, 30 septembre 2011 - 03:16 .

[General User]

@ElitePinecone

If I might ask, which characters do you favor being made into same-sex options and/or which do you think should be left as they are?

As I posted on page 1 of this thread, I think Kaidan and Jack should be made available to both sexes, and the rest left as they are.

[Athayniel]

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

Athayniel wrote...

So when I wrote that s/s supporters don't make assumptions on a character's sexuality one way or the other, your repsonse is still that s/s supporters assume all characters to be bisexual. Okay. That still tells me a great deal about you.

Sure, not all s/s'ers do it, but it certainly appears like the majority of them does.

I think you could make the case that the majority of s/s supporters would like all the LIs to be bisexual. It's a leap in logic with no proof to go from that to arguing the majority assume all the LIs are bisexual.

[Mr.House]

The OPs post reeks of so much fail it's not even funny. Clearly he has no idea what it means to be bisexual or gay.

[Zkyire]

jlb524 wrote...

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

That's just ME2, Origins did have a good amount of variety.

And of course only one of the right sex can warm up a character in a series in which romances are taking precedence over more platonic relationships.

Origins had variety?  Morrigan was a rip-off of Viconia from BG2.

The 'frigid woman' comment was directed at her, actually.

Your second comment makes zero sense.

IEatWhatIPoo wrote...

Having the characters only hit on male shep in ME1 and ME2, and then suddenly hit on femshep in ME3 is not character development; that's fanservice.

You're using an out of universe argument here, though.

FemShep doesn't know that 'Character X' hit on MaleShep.

It didn't happen in ANYONE's playthrough.

If it didn't happen in-game, then it didn't happen, period.

If you play Sheploo, you can romance Ashley.

If you play Femshep, you cannot romance Ashley.

If you play Sheploo, you can romance Miranda.

If you play Femshep, you cannot romance Miranda.

If you play Sheploo, you cannot romance Garrus.

If you play Femshep, you can romance Garrus.

If you play Sheploo, you can romance Tali.

If you play Femshep, you cannot romance Tali.

If you play Sheploo, you cannot romance Thane.

If you play Femshep, you can romance Thane.

If you play Sheploo, you can romance Jack.

If you play Femshep, you cannot romance Jack.


These are the things that can and cannot happen in game. It doesn't matter what your opinions on them are.

Making excuses like "Well she never said she wasn't a lesbian!" does not fly. If it doesn't happen in game (read male and/or female shepard); it doesn't happen. Regardless of the desires of fans.

[NICKjnp]

Actually we can say for a fact. Like it or not they were heterosexual in the first two games. If they were not then they would have been presented as bi/gay. So it is a change to the character if they magically (or biotically in this game) go for the same sex. And it is clearly a change to the character's trait if they have to explain how they are now interested in the same sex.

[Kaiser Shepard]

jlb524 wrote...

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

Interseries variety is a lot to ask for.

And I thought you were referring to Miranda, after which I'd argued that ME2's main flaw in character interaction is that you can do little more than scratch the surface of a character when not interested in or able to romance said character.

...and the DA2 LIs weren't varied just because they were all bi?

There was only one blood mage, you know.

By your logic, the flaw of ME2 is that they are all heterosexual.

I'm having difficulty taking you seriously.

No, but it is a flaw in their design and took away from their stength.

One romancable one, yeah, but pretty much every mage you came across was ANOTHER bloodmage.

I fail to see how that would necessarily be a flaw, but you are able to continue an earlier s/s romance and/or start a light one with Kelly / Samara.

jtav wrote...

Here's the thing: the developers have said outright that it doesn't make sense to do purely gay LIs from a resource standpoint. A player playing a heterosexual Shep will never have to worry about having the option of romancing any of the five opposite-sex LI. A person wishing to roleplay a homosexual Shep--well, hope you like the one option you have. If I as straight female can romance who I please, why shouldn't a gay man or lesbian have the same level of choice?

Because they don't have that same level of choice in real life either.

Xilizhra wrote...

Well, apparently they know to ignore the vocal/violent few on your side of the debate. If you presume to speak for the "majority..." don't.

Way to turn things around. And opposite to what you may think, the demographics here on BSN aren't representative of real life.

Athayniel wrote...

It's a leap in logic with no proof to go from that to arguing the majority assume all the LIs are bisexual.

After the debacle that was DA2, I'm not getting my hopes up.

[Valdrane78]

Athayniel wrote...

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

Athayniel wrote...

So when I wrote that s/s supporters don't make assumptions on a character's sexuality one way or the other, your repsonse is still that s/s supporters assume all characters to be bisexual. Okay. That still tells me a great deal about you.

Sure, not all s/s'ers do it, but it certainly appears like the majority of them does.

I think you could make the case that the majority of s/s supporters would like all the LIs to be bisexual. It's a leap in logic with no proof to go from that to arguing the majority assume all the LIs are bisexual.

It could very well seem liek all s/sers want all LI's to be bi.  But I think it is more along the lines that all S/Sers what their favorite same sex character to be bi.  And to be honest who wouldn't.  YOu have this character who just happens to be the sam egender as your Shep, you dig their attitude and their lines, of course you'll want to romance them in future games, it's only natural.  But I think it gets lost in the shuffle.  There are many different members of the gay and bi community ont he BSN and all of them want someone different to be a bi or gay romance, that inevitably it all bleeds together and suddenly people think that they want all li's to be bi or gay.  Hey I didn't say that everyoen on the BSN was level headed.

Now if you'll excuse me, I forgot I put habaneros in my meal and just ate one, so I must go cool off my mouth.

[Mr.House]

IEatWhatIPoo wrote...

It didn't happen in ANYONE's playthrough.

If it didn't happen in-game, then it didn't happen, period.

If you play Sheploo, you can romance Ashley.

If you play Femshep, you cannot romance Ashley.

If you play Sheploo, you can romance Miranda.

If you play Femshep, you cannot romance Miranda.

If you play Sheploo, you cannot romance Garrus.

If you play Femshep, you can romance Garrus.

If you play Sheploo, you can romance Tali.

If you play Femshep, you cannot romance Tali.

If you play Sheploo, you cannot romance Thane.

If you play Femshep, you can romance Thane.

If you play Sheploo, you can romance Jack.

If you play Femshep, you cannot romance Jack.


These are the things that can and cannot happen in game. It doesn't matter what your opinions on them are.

Making excuses like "Well she never said she wasn't a lesbian!" does not fly. If it doesn't happen in game (read male and/or female shepard); it doesn't happen. Regardless of the desires of fans.

:lol::lol:

OMG LMAO. Tell me you are just joknig around or is this a legit post? You assume, no one has never stated there sexuality, nor did they never reject Shepard, so ya it does fly. You can assume all you want, but guess what? I assumed Tali just liked Shepard, I did not think she wanted to get into there pants. Sometimes when we assume things, it's wrong. Deal with it.

[Siansonea]

Hey, it's this thread again. Having fun, kids?

[Mr.House]

NICKjnp wrote...

Actually we can say for a fact. Like it or not they were heterosexual in the first two games. If they were not then they would have been presented as bi/gay. So it is a change to the character if they magically (or biotically in this game) go for the same sex. And it is clearly a change to the character's trait if they have to explain how they are now interested in the same sex.

They where gonig to be but where cut and since not only can we not flirt with them but nor do we reject anything, your post is not valid. Try again.

[shepskisaac]

Do not worry straight guys! I made it!

NICKjnp wrote...

Actually we can say for a fact. Like it or not they were heterosexual in the first two games. If they were not then they would have been presented as bi/gay. So it is a change to the character if they magically (or biotically in this game) go for the same sex. And it is clearly a change to the character's trait if they have to explain how they are now interested in the same sex.

Actually we can say for a fact. Like it or not they never denied same-sex attractions, declared themselves "I'm straight!" or turned same-sex Shep down (except for Jack which could've been interpreted in many ways considering her past and the fact "girls-club" might as well reffer to gossip circle of painting nails) so like it or not they may as well be available for same-sex Shep in the next game and it won't be any change since nothing's changed, only expanded.

Modifié par IsaacShep, 30 septembre 2011 - 03:32 .

[Valdrane78]

Mr.House wrote...

IEatWhatIPoo wrote...

It didn't happen in ANYONE's playthrough.

If it didn't happen in-game, then it didn't happen, period.

If you play Sheploo, you can romance Ashley.

If you play Femshep, you cannot romance Ashley.

If you play Sheploo, you can romance Miranda.

If you play Femshep, you cannot romance Miranda.

If you play Sheploo, you cannot romance Garrus.

If you play Femshep, you can romance Garrus.

If you play Sheploo, you can romance Tali.

If you play Femshep, you cannot romance Tali.

If you play Sheploo, you cannot romance Thane.

If you play Femshep, you can romance Thane.

If you play Sheploo, you can romance Jack.

If you play Femshep, you cannot romance Jack.


These are the things that can and cannot happen in game. It doesn't matter what your opinions on them are.

Making excuses like "Well she never said she wasn't a lesbian!" does not fly. If it doesn't happen in game (read male and/or female shepard); it doesn't happen. Regardless of the desires of fans.

:lol::lol:

OMG LMAO. Tell me you are just joknig around or is this a legit post? You assume, no one has never stated there sexuality, nor did they never reject Shepard, so ya it does fly. You can assume all you want, but guess what? I assumed Tali just liked Shepard, I did not think she wanted to get into there pants. Sometimes when we assume things, it's wrong. Deal with it.

That's because we were never given the option to be rejected.  As ignorant as his posts sounds, he is correct.  But you are doing the same thing as he is.  You are assuming that if they didn't say their sexuality outright, that they may be bi or gay.

As I sai dbefore, it's a revolving door arguement.

[Athayniel]

SnowHeart1 wrote...

I've only played DA2 twice, and have not touched it sense. IMO, it was kind of a disaster. But look... you're kind of missing my point. Those were essentially all new characters. Aside from Anders, who only appeared in some DLC, and Isabella, who was basically a cameo in DAO, they didn't have much backstory. More importantly... they were written from the beginning to be the way they were. So it worked. With ME, it's a different situation. IMO, there's only so far you can stretch those initial impressions of the characters before you start breaking the immersion, which is a huge part of the ME franchise.

Anyway, toes are getting stepped on, people are seeing oppression at every turn of phrase, and the heat is, frankly, getting way too hot in here and all out of proportion. You got your opinion, go ahead and argue for it if you like. I'm back to lurking in this thread as it's not worth getting my panties in a twist over.

I hope I haven't been making you uncomfortable, I do try to moderate the tone of any of my arguments. You should use the expression on the face of my avatar as a general guide to my demeanour in most circumstances.

Inital impressions are a dangerous thing o base characterisation on. My femShep's first impression of Miranda was 'She shot that guy in the chest! But damn is she working that catsuit..." Then it turns out she was never able to actually verbalise her interest in Miranda. The words would just stick in her throat and never come out... she has no idea what Miri would say to a dinner invitation but she wants to find out.

It's dangerous in real life too. Hypothetically speaking, you have a friend who's gone out with girls but never for very long, who spends most of their time single as far as you can tell, but who one day comes to you and admits that they've figured out they're gay. That they hope it won't ruin your friendship but that they just wanted you to know. I don't know what you'd say or how you'd react. But I would lay down odds that a few members of this forum would say, "Woah dude! You can't be gay, it would break my immersion!"

Again, if you haven't enjoyed having this discussion with me, I'm sorry. I do hope it doesn't preclude you from giving me your opinion in future.

[jtav]

Now, there are LIs I would find it easier or harder to accept suddenly expressing or developing an interest in Shepard specifically. Garrus isn't even sexually attracted to humans, it's all about Shepard as a person. Miranda's romance is entirely player-initiated. We don't know what she would have said had FemShep had the same options available. The much-clamored for VS is ironically harder because they express signs of physical attraction to Shep as early as the first visit to the Citadel. So, you'd have to explain why they were forward with one Shep, but not another. Even that is hardly impossible.

[Mr.House]

Valdrane78 wrote...


That's because we were never given the option to be rejected.  As ignorant as his posts sounds, he is correct.  But you are doing the same thing as he is.  You are assuming that if they didn't say their sexuality outright, that they may be bi or gay.

As I sai dbefore, it's a revolving door arguement.

Until they say I'm straight, I will taske anything like that as a grain of salt.

[shepskisaac]

jtav wrote...

So, you'd have to explain why they were forward with one Shep, but not another. Even that is hardly impossible.

Kaidan's explanation is already written in ME1, he assumes Shep (of both genders) is straight. Why would he hit on a guy he thinks he doesn't have a chance with? It's that simple.

[Mr.House]

IsaacShep wrote...

jtav wrote...

So, you'd have to explain why they were forward with one Shep, but not another. Even that is hardly impossible.

Kaidan's explanation is already written in ME1, he assumes Shep (of both genders) is straight. Why would he hit on a guy he thinks he doesn't have a chance with? It's that simple.

Bingo. I have dated guys like that so it's not unrealistic, regardless of what the morons and homophobes want to beleive.