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Homo, Hetero, or Bi? An analysis.


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#151
ElitePinecone

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General User wrote...

@ElitePinecone

If I might ask, which characters do you favor being made into same-sex options and/or which do you think should be left as they are?

As I posted on page 1 of this thread, I think Kaidan and Jack should be made available to both sexes, and the rest left as they are.


I don't have any particular favourites (I'm just pleased they're in there at all) - but my predictions are based more on the mechanics of how characters will appear rather than the characters themselves. Which, come to think of it, probably isn't the best way to approach it - but I suspect it's what Bioware will do. 

It's a little long to explain, but a combination of the chances of a VS of the same gender appearing with Shepard in any particular game; the chances of ME2 squadmates dying and the hints we've seen about the structure of the squad in ME3 make me reasonably sure that the VS will be an s/s LI - if the player initiates it - in ME3. I doubt that any ME2 characters will be available. 

This falls into the possibility of 'treating the VS as the same person' again, but I'm confident they'll have individual arcs.

Not to mention that there'll definitely be new characters who are also open to both genders. We just don't know who they are, or how many. 

#152
TheChris92

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IEatWhatIPoo wrote...

jlb524 wrote...

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

That's just ME2, Origins did have a good amount of variety.

And of course only one of the right sex can warm up a character in a series in which romances are taking precedence over more platonic relationships.


Origins had variety?  Morrigan was a rip-off of Viconia from BG2.

The 'frigid woman' comment was directed at her, actually.

Your second comment makes zero sense.

IEatWhatIPoo wrote...

Having the characters only hit on male shep in ME1 and ME2, and then suddenly hit on femshep in ME3 is not character development; that's fanservice.


You're using an out of universe argument here, though.

FemShep doesn't know that 'Character X' hit on MaleShep.



It didn't happen in ANYONE's playthrough.

If it didn't happen in-game, then it didn't happen, period.

If you play Sheploo, you can romance Ashley.

If you play Femshep, you cannot romance Ashley.

If you play Sheploo, you can romance Miranda.

If you play Femshep, you cannot romance Miranda.

If you play Sheploo, you cannot romance Garrus.

If you play Femshep, you can romance Garrus.

If you play Sheploo, you can romance Tali.

If you play Femshep, you cannot romance Tali.

If you play Sheploo, you cannot romance Thane.

If you play Femshep, you can romance Thane.

If you play Sheploo, you can romance Jack.

If you play Femshep, you cannot romance Jack.


These are the things that can and cannot happen in game. It doesn't matter what your opinions on them are.

Making excuses like "Well she never said she wasn't a lesbian!" does not fly. If it doesn't happen in game (read male and/or female shepard); it doesn't happen. Regardless of the desires of fans.

How is this different from Garrus never mentioning to have an affection for Female Shepard? He never showed any sort of romantic feelings for Shepard in the first game, and yet you can romance him in ME2?

Modifié par TheChris92, 30 septembre 2011 - 03:40 .


#153
ElitePinecone

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Siansonea II wrote...

Hey, it's this thread again. Having fun, kids?


*waves*

It's almost like clockwork!

#154
General User

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Athayniel wrote...

General User wrote...

That's my just point! That argument can be used successfully (even if only barely) for any character. It's only when you start using it for two, or three, or four characters that things start getting silly.

See, I think you and I have a fundamental disagreement about what a Mass Effect character is and should be. I see them as being much closer to characters in a book or movies, or any other work of fiction. They have their own histories and pasts, their own likes and dislikes, their own virtues, their own failings, and yes, even their own sexual identities. I like that uniqueness, that individuality. It's what makes these characters so alive, and it's what makes me a fan of the franchise.  Seeing an aspect of that uniqueness simply written off is... frustrating. 


I agree with all of that, apart from the thought that making all the characters heterosexual somehow makes them unique. I know that's not exactly what you said. Your argument is that their sexual identity is part of what makes them unique and that's a fine argument. Except for any given playthrough we know nothing about most of their sexual identities and next to nothing about those we have any information on. It simply isn't part of the story. So in one dudShep playthrough Miranda is a straight woman who's found a man she can try to get into a serious relationship with. In a femShep playthrough she's a bisexual woman who's met someone she can possibly commit to in spite of that possibly making it harder for her to bear her own children.

Your argument is that they are characters in a book. My argument is that they are characters in several different books and aspects of them can change based on the choices of the person reading them. Remember, Miranda can be loyal or disloyal to Shep, she can quit Cerberus at the end or not. None of these things about Miranda is at all set in stone.

I think the characters being so dynamic is what's so great about games like Mass Effect.


And such is the nature of video games, they are an interactive medium whereas other works are not. When the audience (or player) can interact with a work of fiction, the focus obviously shifts what aspects of the work (or the characters therein) should the player be able to affect, and what aspects of the work should be beyond the player's influence.

I would argue that the best way to settle this question is to allow the player influence those things human beings could conceivably influence in the real world and disallow the player to influence those things that a real live human cannot expect to influence. And it is almost universally accepted in the medical community that sexual orientation in humans (I'm not sure about quarians or drell Image IPB ) is almost always established by the end of adolescence, and almost never changes thereafter. In other words, another person's sexual identity is not something a human being can reasonably expect to change or influence. 

Whereas other forms of influencing a character, being an angel on their shoulder for good or ill, so to speak (Garrus' missions are a perfect example) should be allowed and even encouraged, since those are the kind of influences/interactions that we've all experienced to one extent or another.

#155
Xilizhra

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Way to turn things around. And opposite to what you may think, the demographics here on BSN aren't representative of real life.

Indeed. The majority of people don't give a ****, and as long as none of the male LIs damages their masculinity by hitting on them, they'll continue to not give a ****. The whiners are a much smaller demographic than those who'd enjoy it, a group that doesn't just include gay people.

#156
jtav

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jtav wrote...

Here's the thing: the developers have said outright that it doesn't make sense to do purely gay LIs from a resource standpoint. A player playing a heterosexual Shep will never have to worry about having the option of romancing any of the five opposite-sex LI. A person wishing to roleplay a homosexual Shep--well, hope you like the one option you have. If I as straight female can romance who I please, why shouldn't a gay man or lesbian have the same level of choice?

Because they don't have that same level of choice in real life either.


And I doubt most of the posters here would have a chance with a RL Miranda or Kaidan. Strangely, that does not seem to stop then from romancing them.

Modifié par jtav, 30 septembre 2011 - 03:43 .


#157
jlb524

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IEatWhatIPoo wrote...

It didn't happen in ANYONE's playthrough.

If it didn't happen in-game, then it didn't happen, period.



And....now, why is that an argument for why it shouldn't happen in someone's playthrough in ME3?

#158
Zkyire

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TheChris92 wrote...

How is this different from Garrus never mentioning to have an affection for Female Shepard? He never showed any sort of romantic feelings for Shepard in the first game, and yet you can romance him in ME2?


It's not different. That was pure fanservice too.

#159
Mr.House

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jlb524 wrote...

IEatWhatIPoo wrote...

It didn't happen in ANYONE's playthrough.

If it didn't happen in-game, then it didn't happen, period.



And....now, why is that an argument for why it shouldn't happen in someone's playthrough in ME3?

By that guys logic, then why is Tali and Garrus iontrested in Shepard now in ME2 when they showed no intrest in ME? Or is that because it's hetro so it's fine? :whistle:

#160
Sunnie

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Oh, it's THIS thread again, again, again, again, again, again, again, again, again, again, again, AGAIN.
Someone, please, find something for the trollophobes to do other than create these retarded damn s/s threads!!!

#161
Zkyire

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jlb524 wrote...

IEatWhatIPoo wrote...

It didn't happen in ANYONE's playthrough.

If it didn't happen in-game, then it didn't happen, period.



And....now, why is that an argument for why it shouldn't happen in someone's playthrough in ME3?


The only reason it will happen in ME3 is fanservice.

Not because the characters were homosexual/bisexual but didn't tell you. Fanservice to please the homosexual/bisexual playerbase, nothing more.

#162
Zkyire

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Sunnie22 wrote...

Oh, it's THIS thread again, again, again, again, again, again, again, again, again, again, again, AGAIN.
Someone, please, find something for the trollophobes to do other than create these retarded damn s/s threads!!!


Oh look it's THIS post again.

#163
TheChris92

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IEatWhatIPoo wrote...

TheChris92 wrote...

How is this different from Garrus never mentioning to have an affection for Female Shepard? He never showed any sort of romantic feelings for Shepard in the first game, and yet you can romance him in ME2?


It's not different. That was pure fanservice too.

And do you honestly think it "damaged" their character?

#164
Athayniel

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Valdrane78 wrote...

Athayniel wrote...

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

Athayniel wrote...

So when I wrote that s/s supporters don't make assumptions on a character's sexuality one way or the other, your repsonse is still that s/s supporters assume all characters to be bisexual. Okay. That still tells me a great deal about you.

Sure, not all s/s'ers do it, but it certainly appears like the majority of them does.


I think you could make the case that the majority of s/s supporters would like all the LIs to be bisexual. It's a leap in logic with no proof to go from that to arguing the majority assume all the LIs are bisexual.


It could very well seem liek all s/sers want all LI's to be bi.  But I think it is more along the lines that all S/Sers what their favorite same sex character to be bi.  And to be honest who wouldn't.  YOu have this character who just happens to be the sam egender as your Shep, you dig their attitude and their lines, of course you'll want to romance them in future games, it's only natural.  But I think it gets lost in the shuffle.  There are many different members of the gay and bi community ont he BSN and all of them want someone different to be a bi or gay romance, that inevitably it all bleeds together and suddenly people think that they want all li's to be bi or gay.  Hey I didn't say that everyoen on the BSN was level headed.

Now if you'll excuse me, I forgot I put habaneros in my meal and just ate one, so I must go cool off my mouth.


Quite so, the difference being the player of a heterosexual Shep never has to worry about their favourite gender-and-orientation appropriate LI not being available to them. The player of lesbian femSheps had to make do with Liara, Kelly and Samara/Morinth, while the players of gay dudeSheps had... no one. More choice is more better as they say in the colloquial parlance. If I had my way then yes, all potential LIs would be available to both genders of PC. I don't say the LIs would be bisexual because from a story point of view that doesn't have to be the case. It is not inconsistant for Tali to tell dudeShep that she's loved him for a long time, while in another game she tells femShep that she's never been attracted to men at all. As long as internal consistency in any given playthrough is retained I say that kind of characterisation twist would be great.

#165
Mr.House

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Sunnie22 wrote...

Oh, it's THIS thread again, again, again, again, again, again, again, again, again, again, again, AGAIN.
Someone, please, find something for the trollophobes to do other than create these retarded damn s/s threads!!!

They can't Sunnie, they feed on it and without these threads they will wittle away and perrish.

#166
jlb524

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Kaiser Shepard wrote...

No, but it is a flaw in their design and took away from their stength.

One romancable one, yeah, but pretty much every mage you came across was ANOTHER bloodmage.


Um...that has nothing to do with romance.  If you want to get technical, we see lots of NPCs in hetero-relationships so the meta-game knowledge that all LIs in DA2 could be romanced by either gender shouldn't matter.

Kaiser Shepard wrote...
I fail to see how that would necessarily be a flaw, but you are able to continue an earlier s/s romance and/or start a light one with Kelly / Samara.


Most people that like s/s weren't satisfied with those 'crumbs' considering you can't do anything with Samara, and Kelly's will always be of the lowest priority for BW when compared with the other romances (which is why she didn't get a love scene, etc.).

However, all the main LIs in the game were 'hetero-only', which means....they're not unique and (according your logics) cheap and watered-down.

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

jtav wrote...

Here's the thing: the developers have said outright that it doesn't make sense to do purely gay LIs from a resource standpoint. A player playing a heterosexual Shep will never have to worry about having the option of romancing any of the five opposite-sex LI. A person wishing to roleplay a homosexual Shep--well, hope you like the one option you have. If I as straight female can romance who I please, why shouldn't a gay man or lesbian have the same level of choice?

Because they don't have that same level of choice in real life either.


Just like I see people choosing to romance aliens in real life all the time.

#167
Zkyire

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Mr.House wrote...

jlb524 wrote...

IEatWhatIPoo wrote...

It didn't happen in ANYONE's playthrough.

If it didn't happen in-game, then it didn't happen, period.



And....now, why is that an argument for why it shouldn't happen in someone's playthrough in ME3?

By that guys logic, then why is Tali and Garrus iontrested in Shepard now in ME2 when they showed no intrest in ME? Or is that because it's hetro so it's fine? :whistle:


Faaaaaaaaacepalm.

No it has nothing to do with heterosexuality.

People whined that they wanted Garrus and Tali as LIs. So they got them.

And other people were complaining because Garrus and Tali showed no interest in ME1.

This is the exact same, only that now because THIS TIME it's about sexuality and not species, we have you guys trying to make it about homophobia instead of what it is; fanservice.

#168
Zkyire

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TheChris92 wrote...

IEatWhatIPoo wrote...

TheChris92 wrote...

How is this different from Garrus never mentioning to have an affection for Female Shepard? He never showed any sort of romantic feelings for Shepard in the first game, and yet you can romance him in ME2?


It's not different. That was pure fanservice too.

And do you honestly think it "damaged" their character?


I'm not saying it's damaging anyone or anything.

I'm saying people are looking for reasons that aren't there "Oh he was bisexual the whole time he just ever told you until now".

People asked for it, so Bioware is giving it to them. That's the only reason. There's nothing in game to support it. Just fanservice. Exactly like Garrus and Tali.

#169
Mr.House

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ME2 and ME3 are fan service.

#170
jlb524

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IEatWhatIPoo wrote...

The only reason it will happen in ME3 is fanservice.

Not because the characters were homosexual/bisexual but didn't tell you. Fanservice to please the homosexual/bisexual playerbase, nothing more.


Now explain to me why pleasing a portion of the fanbase (who gives you money to please them) is bad?

#171
Sunnie

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IEatWhatIPoo wrote...

Sunnie22 wrote...

Oh, it's THIS thread again, again, again, again, again, again, again, again, again, again, again, AGAIN.
Someone, please, find something for the trollophobes to do other than create these retarded damn s/s threads!!!


Oh look it's THIS post again.

Your welcome!

#172
shepskisaac

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IEatWhatIPoo wrote...

It's not different. That was pure fanservice too.

And did you see multiple whining threads about that? Nope. They get created when it's about 'teh gay', simple, obvious and transparent.

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

Because they don't have that same level of choice in real life either.

Ohh so in real life 90% of your subordinates are into you, as it is the case with ManShep having 7/8 of his females squadmates being into him? That doesn't happen even to the most handsome/popular/attractive-in-all-aspects men. Not to mention, the most ugly Shep you can create still has all these different women equally hot for him. And not to mention, even if you Shep is a serial killer, racist, xenophobe and woman-beater, all these women are STILL into him. Yeah, it's all about the realism with ME romances Image IPB

Modifié par IsaacShep, 30 septembre 2011 - 03:53 .


#173
jlb524

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Cries for 'realism' in ME romances don't extend beyond sexuality...you know this Isaac :P

#174
Aeowyn

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IsaacShep wrote...

IEatWhatIPoo wrote...

It's not different. That was pure fanservice too.

And did you see multiple whining threads about that? Nope. They get created when it's about 'teh gay', simple, obvious and transparent.

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

Because they don't have that same level of choice in real life either.

Ohh so in real life 90% or your subordinates are into you, as it is the case with ManShep having 7/8 of his females squadmates being into him? That doesn't happen even to the most handsome/popular/attractive-in-all-aspects men. Not to mention, the most ugly Shep you can create still has all these different women equally hot for him. And not to mention, even if you Shep is an serial killer, racist, xenophobe and woman-beater, all these women are STILL into him. Yeah, it's all about the realism with ME romances Image IPB


I'm sorry, but how would you know if threads were created or not when you weren't registered on the forums when ME2 was released? Image IPB

#175
Athayniel

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General User wrote...

And such is the nature of video games, they are an interactive medium whereas other works are not. When the audience (or player) can interact with a work of fiction, the focus obviously shifts what aspects of the work (or the characters therein) should the player be able to affect, and what aspects of the work should be beyond the player's influence.

I would argue that the best way to settle this question is to allow the player influence those things human beings could conceivably influence in the real world and disallow the player to influence those things that a real live human cannot expect to influence. And it is almost universally accepted in the medical community that sexual orientation in humans (I'm not sure about quarians or drell Image IPB ) is almost always established by the end of adolescence, and almost never changes thereafter. In other words, another person's sexual identity is not something a human being can reasonably expect to change or influence. 

Whereas other forms of influencing a character, being an angel on their shoulder for good or ill, so to speak (Garrus' missions are a perfect example) should be allowed and even encouraged, since those are the kind of influences/interactions that we've all experienced to one extent or another.


Then again, you're assuming there would be a change in orientation while I posit there would only be the revelation of what it already is. Many homosexuals go about their lives without the most people they interact with knowing anything about their orientation. Many do not tell their families or friends. When they do come out they're not 'changing' their sexuality, they're revealing it. This is all predicated on the character not having declared a particular sexuality in game beforehand, which I would take to be the end of the argument because quite frankly the uproar in the forums should one remind people that gays have been known to lie about their sexuality would be... well it would be something.