240 réponses à ce sujet

[TheChris92]

IEatWhatIPoo wrote...

TheChris92 wrote...

IEatWhatIPoo wrote...

TheChris92 wrote...

How is this different from Garrus never mentioning to have an affection for Female Shepard? He never showed any sort of romantic feelings for Shepard in the first game, and yet you can romance him in ME2?

It's not different. That was pure fanservice too.

And do you honestly think it "damaged" their character?

I'm not saying it's damaging anyone or anything.

I'm saying people are looking for reasons that aren't there "Oh he was bisexual the whole time he just ever told you until now".

People asked for it, so Bioware is giving it to them. That's the only reason. There's nothing in game to support it. Just fanservice. Exactly like Garrus and Tali.

We don't know the characters in and out, as we are dealing with an entire trilogy thus a lot of time for them to develop. Liara's character changed a lot, along with some others. Why should it be different with some characters in terms of sexuality. It could easily happen, and if the writers can make it work then why is it such a bad thing?

[shepskisaac]

Aeowyn wrote...

I'm sorry, but how would you know if threads were created or not when you weren't registered on the forums when ME2 was released?

It's called hearing from other people, lurking and browsing through the archives and visiting other forums where ME franchise is also discussed and never stumbling upon multiple "ohh noes Garrus romance!" complaints as I saw about s/s romances. Wasn't that hard to figure it out was it?

[Mr.House]

TheChris92 wrote...

IEatWhatIPoo wrote...

TheChris92 wrote...

IEatWhatIPoo wrote...

TheChris92 wrote...

How is this different from Garrus never mentioning to have an affection for Female Shepard? He never showed any sort of romantic feelings for Shepard in the first game, and yet you can romance him in ME2?

It's not different. That was pure fanservice too.

And do you honestly think it "damaged" their character?

I'm not saying it's damaging anyone or anything.

I'm saying people are looking for reasons that aren't there "Oh he was bisexual the whole time he just ever told you until now".

People asked for it, so Bioware is giving it to them. That's the only reason. There's nothing in game to support it. Just fanservice. Exactly like Garrus and Tali.

We don't know the characters in and out, as we are dealing with an entire trilogy thus a lot of time for them to develop. Liara's character changed a lot, along with some others. Why should it be different with some characters in terms of sexuality. It could easily happen, and if the writers can make it work then why is it such a bad thing?

Because it deals with bisexual and gay and that's bad Chris. You will get the sickness from me.

[Aeowyn]

IsaacShep wrote...

Aeowyn wrote...

I'm sorry, but how would you know if threads were created or not when you weren't registered on the forums when ME2 was released?

It's called hearing from other people, lurking and browsing through the archives and visiting other forums where ME franchise is also discussed and never stumbling upon multiple "ohh noes Garrus romance!" complaints as I saw about s/s romances. Wasn't that hard to figure it out was it?

Interesting. Because I still see posts where people complain about the fanservice of making Tali and Garrus romanceable. But I guess you just see what you want to see.

[shepskisaac]

Aeowyn wrote...

Interesting. Because I still see posts where people complain about the fanservice of making Tali and Garrus romanceable. But I guess you just see what you want to see.

Ohh don't get me wrong, I never said no one ever complained/criticized it. But are you seriously going to claim the whining about Tali/Garrus romances is anywhere near what it is with s/s romances?

[Mr.House]

Aeowyn wrote...

IsaacShep wrote...

Aeowyn wrote...

I'm sorry, but how would you know if threads were created or not when you weren't registered on the forums when ME2 was released?

It's called hearing from other people, lurking and browsing through the archives and visiting other forums where ME franchise is also discussed and never stumbling upon multiple "ohh noes Garrus romance!" complaints as I saw about s/s romances. Wasn't that hard to figure it out was it?

Interesting. Because I still see posts where people complain about the fanservice of making Tali and Garrus romanceable. But I guess you just see what you want to see.

There's a diffrence between the odd hate thread for it compared to the craplaod of threads like this for S/S. It's come to the point where it's getting old and makes alot of these people look bad.

[Athayniel]

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

Athayniel wrote...

It's a leap in logic with no proof to go from that to arguing the majority assume all the LIs are bisexual.

After the debacle that was DA2, I'm not getting my hopes up.

My question was, 'Why are you saying all s/s supporters assume bisexuality?'. Your answer is 'Bioware disappointed me.'

I'm not following your logic.

[Mr.House]

There's a difference between 4 party members and 9 party members(Liara is bi).

[Sunnie]

Aeowyn wrote...

IsaacShep wrote...

Aeowyn wrote...

I'm sorry, but how would you know if threads were created or not when you weren't registered on the forums when ME2 was released?

It's called hearing from other people, lurking and browsing through the archives and visiting other forums where ME franchise is also discussed and never stumbling upon multiple "ohh noes Garrus romance!" complaints as I saw about s/s romances. Wasn't that hard to figure it out was it?

Interesting. Because I still see posts where people complain about the fanservice of making Tali and Garrus romanceable. But I guess you just see what you want to see.

You're missing a huge point though, and that is the hugely disproportionate difference in those threads vs. the anti s/s threads.

[Aeowyn]

IsaacShep wrote...

Aeowyn wrote...

Interesting. Because I still see posts where people complain about the fanservice of making Tali and Garrus romanceable. But I guess you just see what you want to see.

Ohh don't get me wrong, I never said no one ever complained/criticized it. But are you seriously going to claim the whining about Tali/Garrus romances is anywhere near what it is with s/s romances?

No I'm not going to deny that.

But I dislike how anyone who even dares disagreeing with the idea of making an existing character bi is automatically branded as a homophobe/moron.

[Sunnie]

Mr.House wrote...

There's a difference between 4 party members and 9 party members(Liara is bi).

Liara can't be bi, she's not a woman. Aaaaaaand, she comes from a race of space lesbians.

/themoreyouknow

[jlb524]

I'm still waiting for an explanation as to why the DA2 LIs weren't 'unique'.

For instance, what are the things Isabela and Merrill had in common that didn't make them stand out from each other as characters besides both enjoy dipping their fingers in the honeypot?

Aeowyn wrote...
But I dislike how anyone who even dares disagreeing with the idea of making an existing character bi is automatically branded as a homophobe/moron.

Not liking it is one thing...

...attempting to justify it with faulty rationale is another.

Just say 'I don't like it' and move on.

Modifié par jlb524, 30 septembre 2011 - 04:07 .

[Stardusk78]

SnowHeart1 wrote...

Athayniel wrote...
Again... why only once? Is it a single-shot Derringer? I don't understand. Why does it cheapen the character? Why is who they're willing to sleep with at all important to a character's worth?

I think there should be a specific reason for *not* making an LI available to both genders.

My opinion only, but I happen to think sexual orientation is a pretty important part of an individual's personality. It has certainly shaped how I view the world and how I interact with people. Is it a sole defining characteristic? No. But is it important? Yes. You may disagree. But, with this underlying belief, I feel that once you start changing this, you wind up with a weaker, more plastic and less believable character. I think you can do it once, but if you do it more than that you wind up with the "everyone is bi" silliness that was DA2. For that game and as an experiment in game design, and with completely new characters, I was absolutely in favor of it. But ME3 will have pre-established characters that you're going to be tinkering with. And if, all of a sudden, everyone who was ambiguous is now bi... I find that not very credible and to be a sign of weak design. Again, my opinion only.

Excellent post, may I ask how your sexual orientation shapes your world view and how you interact with people?

[Mr.House]

Sunnie22 wrote...

Mr.House wrote...

There's a difference between 4 party members and 9 party members(Liara is bi).

Liara can't be bi, she's not a woman. Aaaaaaand, she comes from a race of space lesbians.

/themoreyouknow

Well of course but the idiots don't relise that so it's easy to use basic terms.

[Mr.House]

jlb524 wrote...

I'm still waiting for an explanation as to why the DA2 LIs weren't 'unique'.

For instance, what are the things Isabela and Merrill had in common that didn't make them stand out from each other as characters besides both enjoy dipping their fingers in the honeypot?

Because being bi=not unique

[NICKjnp]

It is not the writers job to show us what the LI's are not. It is the writers job to show us what they are. They were shown to be heterosexual in ME1&2....because they only romanced the opposite sex. That is fact. Don't like it then don't play those games. You could not romance them as the same sex unless you hacked the game. Even when you did then Kaidan referred to Sheploo as a woman and Ashley called Femshep "Sir". With Sheploo he refers to himself as a woman. Therefore they are heterosexual in both games.

And trying to say they were going to be romanceable is just as pointless. It wasn't in-game and didn't even last long enough in their planning of the story for Kaidan/Ashley to record the lines. The only reason it is there for Meer and Hale is because they recorded all the dialogue for Shepard (both genders)...which is why Shepard refers to himself as a woman.

[hoorayforicecream]

Mr.House wrote...

jlb524 wrote...

I'm still waiting for an explanation as to why the DA2 LIs weren't 'unique'.

For instance, what are the things Isabela and Merrill had in common that didn't make them stand out from each other as characters besides both enjoy dipping their fingers in the honeypot?

Because being bi=not unique

Being het is totally unique.

[Sunnie]

Aeowyn wrote...

IsaacShep wrote...

Aeowyn wrote...

Interesting. Because I still see posts where people complain about the fanservice of making Tali and Garrus romanceable. But I guess you just see what you want to see.

Ohh don't get me wrong, I never said no one ever complained/criticized it. But are you seriously going to claim the whining about Tali/Garrus romances is anywhere near what it is with s/s romances?

No I'm not going to deny that.

But I dislike how anyone who even dares disagreeing with the idea of making an existing character bi is automatically branded as a homophobe/moron.

Honestly, it's not "all" of them, not even "most", it's a hand full of very vocal anti s/s campaigners that appear to live for trolling the BSN with their brand of hate. Unfortunately, these select individuals tend to whip other not so vocal proponents into a frenzy and that is when people start getting branded as a homophobe, can't include moron because there are those on both sides of any given fence.

[Siansonea]

The Bottom Line:

If you have "questions" or "concerns" about the real-world believability about implementing same-sex romance in Mass Effect, you should remember that you're playing a VIDEO GAME with talking aliens and biotic "magic". The "realism" ship has sailed, and you weren't on it. And quit trying to make it sound like you're just concerned about realism, that your objections have nothing to do with your attitudes toward real-world homosexuality. Because that's BS. You know it, I know it. Because if "realism" was the real concern, then the backlash wouldn't be crashing on the shores of same-sex romance. It's an optional part of the game, easily avoided, with minimal impact if not pursued.

Do we really want to champion realism? Is this not a thinly veiled campaign against Teh Gay In Mah Game? How about the Lazarus Project? TOTALLY unrealistic, from start to finish, for a number of reasons. Shepard dies, is exposed to hard vacuum for an unknown period of time, suffers enough post-mortem trauma to become "meat and tubes" at the beginning of the Lazarus Project, is mandated to be brought back "exactly as he/she was" (and yet can change class) is brought back by an ENEMY, and yet still, miraculously, stupidly, IT WORKS? Really? All those delicate synapses in the brain that control memory, personality, identity, those were REPAIRED? After all that damage? Body rebuilding is easy, just clone/regenerate tissue (why the cybernetics?) Stem cell the eff out of Shepard's body, I don't care. But brain death is brain death, and no amount of story handwaving is going to excise the fly from that ointment. So why aren't the Soldiers for Realism in Mass Effect weighing in heavily and repeatedly on this issue? Why are they instead just worrying about the possible expansion of some existing characters for an additional romance OPTION? I'll tell you why: because it's not about realism at all. Don't spit in my eye and tell me it's raining, kids, and don't kid YOURSELVES. We all know what's really going on here (and in every previous incarnation of this exact argument). You don't like the gay. Well there's a solution. It's called GETTING OVER YOURSELF. Or, coming into the 21st Century. You might want to do that anyway, because clinging to 1950s mores and values is only going to get more difficult as time goes by.

[Zkyire]

Mr.House wrote...
Because it deals with bisexual and gay and that's bad Chris. You will get the sickness from me.

Seriously, you, go away if all you're going to do is insinuate that we're homophobes.

[shepskisaac]

NICKjnp wrote...

It is not the writers job to show us what the LI's are not. It is the writers job to show us what they are. They were shown to be heterosexual in ME1&2....because they only romanced the opposite sex. That is fact. Don't like it then don't play those games. You could not romance them as the same sex unless you hacked the game. Even when you did then Kaidan referred to Sheploo as a woman and Ashley called Femshep "Sir". With Sheploo he refers to himself as a woman. Therefore they are heterosexual in both games.

Darth Vader wasn't shown to be Luke's father in Episode IV, yet he was one, you point?

NICKjnp wrote...
And trying to say they were going to be romanceable is just as pointless. It wasn't in-game and didn't even last long enough in their planning of the story for Kaidan/Ashley to record the lines. The only reason it is there for Meer and Hale is because they recorded all the dialogue for Shepard (both genders)...which is why Shepard refers to himself as a woman.

And the fact remains, if it wasn't for presumed small number of s/s content users, they would've been available to romance for both Sheps since day 1.

Modifié par IsaacShep, 30 septembre 2011 - 04:13 .

[SnowHeart1]

Stardusk78 wrote...

Excellent post, may I ask how your sexual orientation shapes your world view and how you interact with people?

Looong (mostly uninteresting) story, more appropriate for a face-to-face conversation. Short-version, it gave me a better appreciation of how society and culture can impose certain expectations on people, with most people never really giving it any thought because it's just "normal". Coming out to myself made me more sympathetic for people going through self-identity issues (which is a lot broader than just sexual orientation; e.g., Jack's experience with Pragia) and a little more patient with people generally (I don't always succeed). Conversely, I know people for whom the process has made them less patient and more caustic. It definitely has an impact on personality, not necessarily in predictable ways, but in ways that can be very important. In developing a character for a story, I think that can be a pretty important piece of information for a writer to consider. Gay, straight, bi... it's all valid, but it's something I think should be conceptualized at the beginning.

[jlb524]

NICKjnp wrote...

It is not the writers job to show us what the LI's are not. It is the writers job to show us what they are. They were shown to be heterosexual in ME1&2....because they only romanced the opposite sex.

I didn't see Ashely romancing a dude in my game.  Again, you want to move the argument to 'outside the game' and into the meta-realm.    Therefore, they plausibly could write Ash as interested in women for ME3.

NICKjnp wrote...
That is fact. Don't like it then don't play those games. You could not romance them as the same sex unless you hacked the game. Even when you did then Kaidan referred to Sheploo as a woman and Ashley called Femshep "Sir". With Sheploo he refers to himself as a woman. Therefore they are heterosexual in both games.

Sheploo and FemShep don't exist in the same universe.  I mean, do you have a problem with Ashley possibly being dead in one pt and possibly being alive in one pt?  When talking about this, you are talking about the series in general from a bird's eye view...looking at all the possibilities.  However, when discussing an idividual game, it's a different story.

My FemShep doesn't know that Ash could romance a dude...if they make Ash a f/f romance in ME3 it wouldn't break any in-universe rule that she was heterosexual.

[Xilizhra]

SnowHeart1 wrote...

Stardusk78 wrote...

Excellent post, may I ask how your sexual orientation shapes your world view and how you interact with people?

Looong (mostly uninteresting) story, more appropriate for a face-to-face conversation. Short-version, it gave me a better appreciation of how society and culture can impose certain expectations on people, with most people never really giving it any thought because it's just "normal". Coming out to myself made me more sympathetic for people going through self-identity issues (which is a lot broader than just sexual orientation; e.g., Jack's experience with Pragia) and a little more patient with people generally (I don't always succeed). Conversely, I know people for whom the process has made them less patient and more caustic. It definitely has an impact on personality, not necessarily in predictable ways, but in ways that can be very important. In developing a character for a story, I think that can be a pretty important piece of information for a writer to consider. Gay, straight, bi... it's all valid, but it's something I think should be conceptualized at the beginning.

Unfortunately, Bioware screwed up and it wasn't conceptualized in the beginning, so now we just have to fix things as best we can.

[Sunnie]

Xilizhra wrote...

SnowHeart1 wrote...

Stardusk78 wrote...

Excellent post, may I ask how your sexual orientation shapes your world view and how you interact with people?

Looong (mostly uninteresting) story, more appropriate for a face-to-face conversation. Short-version, it gave me a better appreciation of how society and culture can impose certain expectations on people, with most people never really giving it any thought because it's just "normal". Coming out to myself made me more sympathetic for people going through self-identity issues (which is a lot broader than just sexual orientation; e.g., Jack's experience with Pragia) and a little more patient with people generally (I don't always succeed). Conversely, I know people for whom the process has made them less patient and more caustic. It definitely has an impact on personality, not necessarily in predictable ways, but in ways that can be very important. In developing a character for a story, I think that can be a pretty important piece of information for a writer to consider. Gay, straight, bi... it's all valid, but it's something I think should be conceptualized at the beginning.

Unfortunately, Bioware screwed up and it wasn't conceptualized in the beginning, so now we just have to fix things as best we can.

Actually, they didn't screw it up, they just ran out of time. They (BW) already said that s/s was cut because they didn't have the time to fully implement it, even left most of the s/s VO files in the data. So, ya...