240 réponses à ce sujet

[Maugrim]

Siansonea II wrote...

The Bottom Line:

If you have "questions" or "concerns" about the real-world believability about implementing same-sex romance in Mass Effect, you should remember that you're playing a VIDEO GAME with talking aliens and biotic "magic". The "realism" ship has sailed, and you weren't on it. And quit trying to make it sound like you're just concerned about realism, that your objections have nothing to do with your attitudes toward real-world homosexuality. Because that's BS. You know it, I know it. Because if "realism" was the real concern, then the backlash wouldn't be crashing on the shores of same-sex romance. It's an optional part of the game, easily avoided, with minimal impact if not pursued.

Do we really want to champion realism? Is this not a thinly veiled campaign against Teh Gay In Mah Game? How about the Lazarus Project? TOTALLY unrealistic, from start to finish, for a number of reasons. Shepard dies, is exposed to hard vacuum for an unknown period of time, suffers enough post-mortem trauma to become "meat and tubes" at the beginning of the Lazarus Project, is mandated to be brought back "exactly as he/she was" (and yet can change class) is brought back by an ENEMY, and yet still, miraculously, stupidly, IT WORKS? Really? All those delicate synapses in the brain that control memory, personality, identity, those were REPAIRED? After all that damage? Body rebuilding is easy, just clone/regenerate tissue (why the cybernetics?) Stem cell the eff out of Shepard's body, I don't care. But brain death is brain death, and no amount of story handwaving is going to excise the fly from that ointment. So why aren't the Soldiers for Realism in Mass Effect weighing in heavily and repeatedly on this issue? Why are they instead just worrying about the possible expansion of some existing characters for an additional romance OPTION? I'll tell you why: because it's not about realism at all. Don't spit in my eye and tell me it's raining, kids, and don't kid YOURSELVES. We all know what's really going on here (and in every previous incarnation of this exact argument). You don't like the gay. Well there's a solution. It's called GETTING OVER YOURSELF. Or, coming into the 21st Century. You might want to do that anyway, because clinging to 1950s mores and values is only going to get more difficult as time goes by.

Just gonna quote this because it truly is the bottom line.

Also the original analysis of this is so ridiculous, OP should read that second quote in their sig and take it to heart.

Modifié par makenzieshepard, 30 septembre 2011 - 04:22 .

[NICKjnp]

Really??? You are trying to argue something that wasn't even there as your basis. Darth Vader was shown to have killed Luke's father. Luke even calls Kenobi out as a liar in the in the sixth movie for not telling him the truth. Furthermore we are never introduced to Luke's father. All we know is that Vader killed him. In ME1&2 they were not bisexual/homosexual. Fact. There is no evidence at all in those games. The evidence is that they are heterosexual because they are written as heterosexual.

And it wasn't used because they didn't feel like it worked right. The only reason they thought about it was because Meer had recorded Femshep's lines and Hale had recoded Sheploo's.

[jlb524]

NICKjnp wrote...

Really??? You are trying to argue something that wasn't even there as your basis. Darth Vader was shown to have killed Luke's father. Luke even calls Kenobi out as a liar in the in the sixth movie for not telling him the truth. Furthermore we are never introduced to Luke's father. All we know is that Vader killed him.

Yeah, that's the same as Darth Vader = Luke's father.

Luke calsl Kenobi out b/c Kenobi never told him.

NICKjnp wrote...
In ME1&2 they were not bisexual/homosexual. Fact. There is no evidence at all in those games. The evidence is that they are heterosexual because they are written as heterosexual.

Prove it with an in-universe argument and not a meta-one.

That's as good as me arguing that they should remove Ash's character from ME3 b/c she 'could' possibly die in some people's saves...I'm using meta-reasoning to justify taking out a character in my game.

Modifié par jlb524, 30 septembre 2011 - 04:28 .

[Kaiser Shepard]

[quote]Mr.House wrote...

Bingo. I have dated guys like that so it's not unrealistic, regardless of what the morons and homophobes want to beleive. [/quote]
Ah, was wondering when this one was gonna show up.



[quote]Xilizhra wrote...

[quote]Way to turn things around. And opposite to what you may think, the demographics here on BSN aren't representative of real life.[/quote]
Indeed. The majority of people don't give a ****, and as long as none of the male LIs damages their masculinity by hitting on them, they'll continue to not give a ****. The whiners are a much smaller demographic than those who'd enjoy it, a group that doesn't just include gay people.[/quote]
The whiners are the people who'd enjoy it.


[quote]ladyvader wrote...

There you go assuming again.  Which is all you do.  

No one's sexual preference is mentioned in game.  People do grow and change over time.  That is a simple fact you refuse to see.[/quote]
Of course, everybody becomes gay and/or bi at some point in their lives, that's only the most natural assumption to make. 


[quote]Mr.House wrote...

Until they say I'm straight, I will taske anything like that as a grain of salt.[/quote]
Again the "Everyone's bi unless stated otherwise."


[quote]jtav wrote...

And I doubt most of the posters here would have a chance with a RL Miranda or Kaidan. Strangely, that does not seem to stop then from romancing them.[/quote]
Non-argument.




[quote]IsaacShep wrote...

Ohh so in real life 90% of your subordinates are into you, as it is the case with ManShep having 7/8 of his females squadmates being into him? That doesn't happen even to the most handsome/popular/attractive-in-all-aspects men. Not to mention, the most ugly Shep you can create still has all these different women equally hot for him. And not to mention, even if you Shep is a serial killer, racist, xenophobe and woman-beater, all these women are STILL into him. Yeah, it's all about the realism with ME romances [/quote]
It's far from 90%, but I agree that not everyone should be into Shep regardless of his actions and/or beliefs.


[quote]jlb524 wrote...

Cries for 'realism' in ME romances don't extend beyond sexuality...you know this Isaac [/quote]
Oh please, this is only the latest thing that grinds my gears.


[quote]IsaacShep wrote...

Darth Vader wasn't shown to be Luke's father in Episode IV, yet he was one, you point?[/quote]
Doesn't mean that it wasn't a bad twist to begin with.

[quote]jlb524 wrote...

I didn't see Ashely romancing a dude in my game.[/quote]
Non-argument, you knew she could.


[quote]jlb524 wrote...

Um...that has nothing to do with romance.  If you want to get technical, we see lots of NPCs in hetero-relationships so the meta-game knowledge that all LIs in DA2 could be romanced by either gender shouldn't matter.[/quote]
That doesn't change the facts.


[quote]Most people that like s/s weren't satisfied with those 'crumbs' considering you can't do anything with Samara, and Kelly's will always be of the lowest priority for BW when compared with the other romances (which is why she didn't get a love scene, etc.).[/quote]
So all romances have to be successful and end on a positive note? And even though Kelly's romance was of a lower priority, that doesn't change the fact that it's there.


[quote]However, all the main LIs in the game were 'hetero-only', which means....they're not unique and (according your logics) cheap and watered-down.[/quote]
More unique than LIs everyone could romance, yeah.

[quote]Just like I see people choosing to romance aliens in real life all the time.[/quote]
Non-argument, and you can be certain people would if they could, but that doesn't mean everyone has to be a xenophile.

Modifié par Kaiser Shepard, 30 septembre 2011 - 04:30 .

[shepskisaac]

NICKjnp wrote...

In ME1&2 they were not bisexual/homosexual. Fact. There is no evidence at all in those games. The evidence is that they are heterosexual because they are written as heterosexual.

And there's nothing that you could point to that would prove it they're definitely not bisexual, fact.

NICKjnp wrote...

And it wasn't used because they didn't feel like it worked right.

Yes, because it doesn't fit straight copy+pasted from o/s romance, just as in real life two dudes/girls will flirt/sweet-talk with each bit differently then they would with opposite sex. And since they didn't have time to fix that, they dropped it. They've said it, they admitted it.

[Fault Girl]

Does this even matter? bioware will do what they will do. Even if gay/bisexual people are in the minority, isn't it fair for them to have some options? It's not going to effect my game. (if Bioware implement it correctly I should say)

The whole dialogue issue from ME1, I don't think proves if they were going to or not.

*sigh*

[Xilizhra]

The whiners are the people who'd enjoy it.

Ah, but we're victorious. We have nothing to whine about.

More unique than LIs everyone could romance, yeah.

Oh, so you're simply insane. Fair enough.

[Stardusk78]

All I see is a lot of anger in this thread, no resolution and for the record I am a straight male who loves playing lesbian video game characters and I saw Liara as a good option for that, so no biggie, there don't need to be a million other options imo. For the male gay crowd, I say make Vega bi or gay and leave it at that. Having said that Kaidan definitely has an awkward vibe to him and my gaydar tells me he might be in the closet, Ash no way and others, well, I say leave it as it is. If lesbians want another bi/lesbian option make it Jack, she seems most open about it.

[jlb524]

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

jlb524 wrote...
I didn't see Ashely romancing a dude in my game.

Non-argument, you knew she could.

You do know the difference between 'in universe' and 'meta-perspective' right?

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

jlb524 wrote...

Um...that has nothing to do with romance.  If you want to get technical, we see lots of NPCs in hetero-relationships so the meta-game knowledge that all LIs in DA2 could be romanced by either gender shouldn't matter.

That doesn't change the facts.

What 'facts'?

That Merrill's DA2 romance isn't unique b/c there are a lot of blood mage NPCs in the game? 

Kaiser Shepard wrote...
So all romances have to be successful and end on a positive note? And even though Kelly's romance was of a lower priority, that doesn't change the fact that it's there.

No, but funny none of the het-only romances suffered from any of this.

Kaiser Shepard wrote...
More unique than LIs everyone could romance, yeah.

That's a terrible answer. Because as it stands, pretty much anyone can romance any LI and the only check is gender...not appearance, not morality, not class. Again, this should make the ME2 and even DA:O LIs lesser in your eyes.   A male dwarf can romance any of the female LIs in DA:O, for example.  Considering we really don't see any human/dwarf pairings...yeah....

You can't have it both ways...

Kaiser Shepard wrote...
Non-argument, and you can be certain people would if they could, but that doesn't mean everyone has to be a xenophile.

Um, just like some homosexuals would romance any person of the same sex if they could.  

Modifié par jlb524, 30 septembre 2011 - 04:39 .

[shepskisaac]

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

It's far from 90%

It's not. 7 is precisely 87.5% of 8. I just rounded it up Did I lie about utter & unrealistic majority of his female subordinates being into him? Nope.

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

but I agree that not everyone should be into Shep regardless of his actions and/or beliefs.

But that's not gonna happen in ME3 with straight romances, so why should only s/s romances suddenly be put through the 'realism filter'? I ain't compaigning for all bi (I know that ain't gonna happen anyway) but when I see someone try to quote realism as an argument against that when the existing straight ME romances throw realism into the bin when it comes to fanservicing straight players, I say "ohh hell no"

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

Doesn't mean that it wasn't a bad twist to begin with.

Precisely. But does that mean you've already played ME3 and know how they wrote the s/s romances with old characters and know that it wasn't written well? Think we all know the answer.

[ElitePinecone]

Kaiser Shepard wrote...
Again the "Everyone's bi unless stated otherwise."

No.

Everyone could be bi, unless stated otherwise.

Everyone could be straight, it's probably more likely.

But don't assume it. 

It's not actually that difficult to understand. 

[Sunnie]

*yawn*

Like all these s/s troll threads, the circle jerks are nothing but a broken record, always saying the same thing, no matter how many ways their statements are shown to be unfounded opinions, and claiming them as some fact, as if written so in some source book.

[Stardusk78]

Xilizhra wrote...

The whiners are the people who'd enjoy it.

Ah, but we're victorious. We have nothing to whine about.

More unique than LIs everyone could romance, yeah.

Oh, so you're simply insane. Fair enough.

Why are lesbians almost always angrier than gay men? I have plenty of gay male friends, not a single lesbian one (although demographically speaking there are many more gay men than lesbians) but especially in the posts here on bioware,  lesbians are always angry and in your case you can smell the misandry through each of your posts. What is the point of hating men? You're not even interested in them.

[General User]

Stardusk78 wrote...

All I see is a lot of anger in this thread, no resolution and for the record I am a straight male who loves playing lesbian video game characters and I saw Liara as a good option for that, so no biggie, there don't need to be a million other options imo. For the male gay crowd, I say make Vega bi or gay and leave it at that. Having said that Kaidan definitely has an awkward vibe to him and my gaydar tells me he might be in the closet, Ash no way and others, well, I say leave it as it is. If lesbians want another bi/lesbian option make it Jack, she seems most open about it.

WOOHOO!!!

To quote Batman in "Batman Begins"

"Now we're two."

[ElitePinecone]

Stardusk78 wrote...

a lot of anger in this thread, no resolution

[Xilizhra]

Stardusk78 wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

The whiners are the people who'd enjoy it.

Ah, but we're victorious. We have nothing to whine about.

More unique than LIs everyone could romance, yeah.

Oh, so you're simply insane. Fair enough.

Why are lesbians almost always angrier than gay men? I have plenty of gay male friends, not a single lesbian one (although demographically speaking there are many more gay men than lesbians) but especially in the posts here on bioware,  lesbians are always angry and in your case you can smell the misandry through each of your posts. What is the point of hating men? You're not even interested in them.

I don't hate men. I just yell at them more because the vast, vast majority of anti-s/s posts are from men. If you hopped over to the DA2 forums, almost the entire mage-supporting vanguard aside from me is male, and I like them (though Rifneno's sadly done a disappearing act).

[Stardusk78]

General User wrote...

Stardusk78 wrote...

All I see is a lot of anger in this thread, no resolution and for the record I am a straight male who loves playing lesbian video game characters and I saw Liara as a good option for that, so no biggie, there don't need to be a million other options imo. For the male gay crowd, I say make Vega bi or gay and leave it at that. Having said that Kaidan definitely has an awkward vibe to him and my gaydar tells me he might be in the closet, Ash no way and others, well, I say leave it as it is. If lesbians want another bi/lesbian option make it Jack, she seems most open about it.

WOOHOO!!!

To quote Batman in "Batman Begins"

"Now we're two."

Or maybe more. I really don't get why lesbians hate men so much. Oh well.

[Stardusk78]

Xilizhra wrote...

Stardusk78 wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

The whiners are the people who'd enjoy it.

Ah, but we're victorious. We have nothing to whine about.

More unique than LIs everyone could romance, yeah.

Oh, so you're simply insane. Fair enough.

Why are lesbians almost always angrier than gay men? I have plenty of gay male friends, not a single lesbian one (although demographically speaking there are many more gay men than lesbians) but especially in the posts here on bioware,  lesbians are always angry and in your case you can smell the misandry through each of your posts. What is the point of hating men? You're not even interested in them.

I don't hate men. I just yell at them more because the vast, vast majority of anti-s/s posts are from men. If you hopped over to the DA2 forums, almost the entire mage-supporting vanguard aside from me is male, and I like them (though Rifneno's sadly done a disappearing act).

As I said before; make Vega gay, Kaidan (why not), Jack (why not), Liara already is bi...so you have everything you want.

[Xilizhra]

Stardusk78 wrote...

General User wrote...

Stardusk78 wrote...

All I see is a lot of anger in this thread, no resolution and for the record I am a straight male who loves playing lesbian video game characters and I saw Liara as a good option for that, so no biggie, there don't need to be a million other options imo. For the male gay crowd, I say make Vega bi or gay and leave it at that. Having said that Kaidan definitely has an awkward vibe to him and my gaydar tells me he might be in the closet, Ash no way and others, well, I say leave it as it is. If lesbians want another bi/lesbian option make it Jack, she seems most open about it.

WOOHOO!!!

To quote Batman in "Batman Begins"

"Now we're two."

Or maybe more. I really don't get why lesbians hate men so much. Oh well.

Well, you're certainly not helping.

As I said before; make Vega gay, Kaidan (why not), Jack (why not), Liara already is bi...so you have everything you want.

I have Liara already, I have no personal stake in this. But I see no reason to deprive people of choice.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 30 septembre 2011 - 04:44 .

[General User]

I don't blame 'em. Men aren't that great really.

[jlb524]

Wait, now lesbians hate men because some of us argue against murky rationale for denying us more romance options in game?

I can say that some of you men hate lesbians for wanting to keep all the options to yourselves and throw us 'crumbs'.

[Athayniel]

jlb524 wrote...

Kaiser Shepard wrote...
So all romances have to be successful and end on a positive note? And even though Kelly's romance was of a lower priority, that doesn't change the fact that it's there.

No, but funny none of the het-only romances suffered from any of this.

Not to mention only the six het romances awarded the Paramour achievement.

[Stardusk78]

Xilizhra wrote...

Stardusk78 wrote...

General User wrote...

Stardusk78 wrote...

All I see is a lot of anger in this thread, no resolution and for the record I am a straight male who loves playing lesbian video game characters and I saw Liara as a good option for that, so no biggie, there don't need to be a million other options imo. For the male gay crowd, I say make Vega bi or gay and leave it at that. Having said that Kaidan definitely has an awkward vibe to him and my gaydar tells me he might be in the closet, Ash no way and others, well, I say leave it as it is. If lesbians want another bi/lesbian option make it Jack, she seems most open about it.

WOOHOO!!!

To quote Batman in "Batman Begins"

"Now we're two."

Or maybe more. I really don't get why lesbians hate men so much. Oh well.

Well, you're certainly not helping.

I sympathise with your position, as I dig women too and secretly think I should have been a lesbian but having Liara and someone else is enough and then maybe Vega and Kaidan and that is cool. You don't need everyone to be bi, that is just silly.

[Stardusk78]

General User wrote...

I don't blame 'em. Men aren't that great really.

Like women are much better? Care to clarify a bit?

[Golden Owl]

I REALLY don't get why some people are so concerned about squaddies coming back 'Bi'....how much simpler can it get than if you don't want your Shep romancing them, then don't...no-one is forcing your Shep to be Gay...Let Homosexual gamers have a variety of choice too, why the hell not...It's a non issue that people are blowing into a sh*t storm.