474 réponses à ce sujet

[Newnation]

FlyinElk212 wrote...

Wow. So the people who actually liked Dragon Age 2 are considered Blind Fanboys, but people who liked Dragon Age: Origins and wants everything to revert back to the way it was in that game aren't?

I'll agree that some changes to Dragon Age 2 definitely didn't sit well with me, but at the end of the day, you have a more invigorating battle system (though isometric view should definitely come back) and a more original story. Dragon Age, as a whole, tried to create it's own identity, as opposed to a prototypical, cliched fantasy RPG. It tried to progress the series.

Did it succeed? I don't think so, not fully, anyway. The problem was in its execution (to which DA:O had MUCH better execution). But it's no wonder Bioware was caught offguard by fan reaction: they were shocked by the fanbase's unwillingness for progressivism...or should I say, Blind Fanboys?

I was going to say something similar to this but you said it better.

[LyndseyCousland]

Fingers crossed the devs can put their money where their mouth is for DA3.

[Monica83]

Newnation wrote...

FlyinElk212 wrote...

Wow. So the people who actually liked Dragon Age 2 are considered Blind Fanboys, but people who liked Dragon Age: Origins and wants everything to revert back to the way it was in that game aren't?

I'll agree that some changes to Dragon Age 2 definitely didn't sit well with me, but at the end of the day, you have a more invigorating battle system (though isometric view should definitely come back) and a more original story. Dragon Age, as a whole, tried to create it's own identity, as opposed to a prototypical, cliched fantasy RPG. It tried to progress the series.

Did it succeed? I don't think so, not fully, anyway. The problem was in its execution (to which DA:O had MUCH better execution). But it's no wonder Bioware was caught offguard by fan reaction: they were shocked by the fanbase's unwillingness for progressivism...or should I say, Blind Fanboys?

I was going to say something similar to this but you said it better.

No i mean people that post in every thread of dislikes things like... ohhh look this thread again or..
dragon age 2 is the best game ever maded!
Origin sucks..

Those are troll fanboys this is what i mean..

I have not problem with people that likes DA2 i have problem when bioware changer an entire brand only to have the cod audience and the Call of duty crowd.. And then make marketing based on Lies..

Don't forget that is biower the first that called us Forchan trolls or people that afraid to change... So is normal if we consider how they work now in "professional" manner people shots vitriol comments..

They deserved it..no more no less

[KilrB]

Monica83 wrote...

Newnation wrote...

FlyinElk212 wrote...

Wow. So the people who actually liked Dragon Age 2 are considered Blind Fanboys, but people who liked Dragon Age: Origins and wants everything to revert back to the way it was in that game aren't?

I'll agree that some changes to Dragon Age 2 definitely didn't sit well with me, but at the end of the day, you have a more invigorating battle system (though isometric view should definitely come back) and a more original story. Dragon Age, as a whole, tried to create it's own identity, as opposed to a prototypical, cliched fantasy RPG. It tried to progress the series.

Did it succeed? I don't think so, not fully, anyway. The problem was in its execution (to which DA:O had MUCH better execution). But it's no wonder Bioware was caught offguard by fan reaction: they were shocked by the fanbase's unwillingness for progressivism...or should I say, Blind Fanboys?

I was going to say something similar to this but you said it better.

No i mean people that post in every thread of dislikes things like... ohhh look this thread again or..
dragon age 2 is the best game ever maded!
Origin sucks..

Those are troll fanboys this is what i mean..

I have not problem with people that likes DA2 i have problem when bioware changer an entire brand only to have the cod audience and the Call of duty crowd.. And then make marketing based on Lies..

Don't forget that is biower the first that called us Forchan trolls or people that afraid to change... So is normal if we consider how they work now in "professional" manner people shots vitriol comments..

They deserved it..no more no less

You do realize that CoD and Call of Duty are one and the same, right?

[Monica83]

lol hehehe ok point for you it was a mistake i did i tend to write very faster and somtimes i write strange things...

i mean the console audience and the call of duty crowd

[KilrB]

Monica83 wrote...

lol hehehe ok point for you it was a mistake i did i tend to write very faster and somtimes i write strange things...

i mean the console audience and the call of duty crowd

No "points" here, I agree with your sentiments.

Just trying to bring that to your attention nicely before someone else did so in a not so nice manner.

[Nozybidaj]

/shrug I doubt anyone on the DA team was really surprised by the reaction (though I'm sure they have to say they were in public). If they weren't they are in the wrong business.

[wowpwnslol]

Anyone with half a clue could see the negative reactions from a mile away. Bioware gained its reputation as a quality RPG company for a very narrow, niche audience. The moment they decided to
"expand" and try to acquire new fanbase for purely financial gain, they got rightfully criticized by their real fans who were unhappy by the anime combat, dumbed down gameplay and limited RPG options.

I am glad that Bioware is happy they accrued new audience with their new "RPG", just another admittance they sold out for money to EA. The age of classic RPGs is long gone, so keep those Baldur's Gate 2 discs nice and safe.

[Laverre]

To be honest I would have been surprised too. Being critizised for bad or unpopular design decisions is one thing and usually Bioware is very professional about it, but the amount of extreme negativity and just outright bashing the game got, was in my opinion unwarranted. It certainly is flawed and could have been better and more interesting, but reading a lot of comments at the time of release, it sounded like a mixture between the game you would gift an enemy in the hope he would slip into a coma and just every designer at Bioware had a personal vendetta gainst RPG fans.

[ElitePinecone]

Laverre wrote...

To be honest I would have been surprised too. Being critizised for bad or unpopular design decisions is one thing and usually Bioware is very professional about it, but the amount of extreme negativity and just outright bashing the game got, was in my opinion unwarranted. It certainly is flawed and could have been better and more interesting, but reading a lot of comments at the time of release, it sounded like a mixture between the game you would gift an enemy in the hope he would slip into a coma and just every designer at Bioware had a personal vendetta gainst RPG fans.

Hell hath no fury like a gamer scorned. 

I think a lot of the reaction was ridiculous and over the top, which is either a testament to the disappointment of some Origins fans or a sign of their unreasonableness. Probably a mixture of both? I just hope those who reacted like Bioware had just killed Ser Pounce-a-lot don't leave a lasting impression - there are far better, and more reasonable, critiques out there of DA2 that don't descend into hyperbolic narratives of betrayal. 

One thing, though - to claim that the fan response as a whole (rather than its crazy fericiousness) came as a surprise strikes me as a little disingenuous. It's not as though pre-release discussion was glowing, especially after the demo was released. There were very obvious signs of discontentment, even when the initial design philosophy was announced way before release. 

[Foolsfolly]

Laverre wrote...

To be honest I would have been surprised too. Being critizised for bad or unpopular design decisions is one thing and usually Bioware is very professional about it, but the amount of extreme negativity and just outright bashing the game got, was in my opinion unwarranted. It certainly is flawed and could have been better and more interesting, but reading a lot of comments at the time of release, it sounded like a mixture between the game you would gift an enemy in the hope he would slip into a coma and just every designer at Bioware had a personal vendetta gainst RPG fans.

It was how much it disappointed people. Origins and Mass Effect 2 were so damn good that our hopes were really high. And the game just missed those goals we'd set for it.... badly.

Modifié par Foolsfolly, 15 octobre 2011 - 08:50 .

[Cutlasskiwi]

Monica83 wrote...

No i mean people that post in every thread of dislikes things like... ohhh look this thread again or..
dragon age 2 is the best game ever maded!
Origin sucks..

Those are troll fanboys this is what i mean..

I have not problem with people that likes DA2 i have problem when bioware changer an entire brand only to have the cod audience and the Call of duty crowd.. And then make marketing based on Lies..

Don't forget that is biower the first that called us Forchan trolls or people that afraid to change... So is normal if we consider how they work now in "professional" manner people shots vitriol comments..

They deserved it..no more no less

Where did they say that they wanted the CoD audience? I am generally curious about that.

People often make this point to criticizes BioWare or DA2. I've read some interviews where one dev pointed out some similarities between those games and RPG's. Features like gear and stat progression and then suggest that maybe some of those people would enjoy playing RPG's as well.

Modifié par Yellow Words, 15 octobre 2011 - 09:32 .

[ElitePinecone]

Yellow Words wrote...

Where did they say that they wanted the CoD audience? I am generally curious about that.

People often make this point to criticizes BioWare or DA2. I've read some interviews where one dev pointed out some similarities between those games and RPG's. Features like gear and stat progression and then suggest that maybe some of those people would enjoy playing RPG's as well.

It's very often misinterpreted, which is why it was probably a silly thing to say. People confuse two points Bioware made in interviews, and the headlines don't help. 

The first point (here) was that many games (Assassin's Creed, Fallout, CoD) now use RPG elements, but aren't necessarily called RPGs - you put points into things, and level up, and have stats, but people who play them don't necessary associate themselves as RPG gamers. The thinking was, if you could get those people to see that they're playing RPGs, they might want to try other action-y games with numbers in them. 

The second point (I can't find the article right now) was that they'd love to have an audience of CoD's size, but not necessarily the same people. One of the Bioware execs said something like there was potential for RPGs to have much larger audiences than they have now, and they wanteed to capture a larger segment of the market. 

People often combine those two points to directly mean that "Bioware wants to capture the attention of people who play Call of Duty", which I don't think is true at all. CoD was used as an example of a game that uses RPG mechanics successfully while doing something different, and Bioware said they wanted an audience of the size of people who play CoD, not literally comprised of those people. 

Despite it being wrong, I think this association between Bioware and Call of Duty is pretty well entrenched in people's minds, especially if they're already disillusioned with the company and DA2. The fact that people repeat it without questioning shows that they're ready to believe it unconditionally. It's going to be near-impossible to shake the misconception without producing a very good game in the future. 

[A Crusty Knight Of Colour]

They should've used Sports Games as a comparison. It would've been more controversial since RPG grognards lots of people talk about Sports Games (casual stuff) like the plague but ultimately, it's a more valid one.

In terms of an overarching, transparent and immutable ruleset, statistical representation of characters, open ended & meaningful character building, encounters that rely on a mixture of good character building, superior tactics and an element of randomisation, and a story/narrative that changes and evolves according to your decisions & execution to provide unique experiences, then Sports Games in career modes are conceptually and mechanically are more "old school" and better than quite a few "RPGs", even if the pratical application is not so good from an RPG standpoint. They are still at their core, solid Action RPGs with a sports theme.

They are the ultimate examples of people playing and liking RPGs, but not realising it.

I won't argue the specifics, but I'd say you could easily claim that Mass Effect 2 is less of an RPG than say, NBA 2K11 and be able to defend that viewpoint really well.

None of that really relates to Dragon Age 2 though, so I'll try and bring the topic back.

The CoD crowd notion is one born of hyperbole and not one grounded in the proper context of statements of BioWare employees. What is true however, is that BioWare seems intent on "streamlining" elements of the game for the sake of making them more "accessible" for a greater audience. CoD for some reason, embodies that, though I'd argue that FFXIII is a better example because it seems to mirror Dragon Age 2 in the various changes and "streamlining" compared to previous titles.

In either case, it's simply people being unable to properly articulate their opinions better and elaborate on them. On this forum at least, CoD implies a few things, "dumbing down", "console centric audience", "short attention spans" and a variety of other negative connotations.

These negative connotations broadly match the opinions people have about Dragon Age 2 and BioWare's direction for the franchise. So, in lieu of properly articulating such opinions, we get the "it's becoming like CoD" posts. What's really being said is that the games aren't actually becoming like CoD, or that BioWare actually wants CoD's physical audience, but that elements which are associated and implied by CoD games are also comparable with what BioWare is doing/does.

It's similar to how people compare stuff to Shakespeare.

Say "Well, it's not like it's Shakespeare." or some such. They (people) aren't actually comparing the physical narrative structure to a Shakespearean play, but rather, commenting on the quality of said narrative, an element that is implied about William Shakespeare's works.

Of course, the reason this is done is so that they don't need to type out overly long posts, like me.

FWIW, I play Call of Duty and have been since the very beginning. I did not buy MW 2, Black Ops and I'm unlikely to get MW 3 over BF 3, but I own CoD, CoD 2, CoD 4 and various expansions. So on that note, I don't particularly mind BioWare capturing the CoD audience if it means they want to cater to my tastes.

Modifié par mrcrusty, 15 octobre 2011 - 12:00 .

[Lord_Valandil]

FlyinElk212 wrote...

Wow. So the people who actually liked Dragon Age 2 are considered Blind Fanboys, but people who liked Dragon Age: Origins and wants everything to revert back to the way it was in that game aren't?

I'll agree that some changes to Dragon Age 2 definitely didn't sit well with me, but at the end of the day, you have a more invigorating battle system (though isometric view should definitely come back) and a more original story. Dragon Age, as a whole, tried to create it's own identity, as opposed to a prototypical, cliched fantasy RPG. It tried to progress the series.

Did it succeed? I don't think so, not fully, anyway. The problem was in its execution (to which DA:O had MUCH better execution). But it's no wonder Bioware was caught offguard by fan reaction: they were shocked by the fanbase's unwillingness for progressivism...or should I say, Blind Fanboys?

I agree with you in some points.
There's a lot of DA:O's "blind fanboys" around here, and while it's one of my favorite games, it isn't a sacred cow of some sort, I know it has flaws.
I won't repeat what I didn't like about DA2, as it's getting tiresome for both the people who read my posts and me...but I'll just say that the problem isn't the "unwillingness for progressivism", I mean...DA2 was a rushed job and it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure that out...I don't know how the hell they tried to "create its own identity", they recycled a lot of designs from Origins, (almost) no one takes the new Darkspawn seriously (which means they failed in those designs) and well...let's not talk about the environments.
And the story...all right, it isn't about some guy who saves the day against terrible ancient evil demons/gods/etc, but it's a disjointed disaster full of holes and missed opportunities. I don't "hate" it, I just feel disappointed when I think about it.
Many characters are cool, I liked Varric (the framed narrative is useless, though), and Hawke as well. The others are kind of cool, but I have to say I hated the changes made to Anders...and that there's no point in making a redesign of Flemeth, they just wanted her to look "Final-Fantasyishing-Awesome" I guess.
The idea of Kirkwall at first caught my attention, but the execution failed (dead, boring city that never changes one single bit).
And well, I liked Inon Zur's soundtrack, not so much as his previous efforts, but it's not bad.
I don't care that much about the dialogue wheel, but I despise the silliness often found there..."I want to be a dragon", seriously?

Look, look Lord_Valandil, you're doing it again even though you said you wouldn't...Everyone already knows that you think about DA2, please stop.
Fine, I'll stop now. I don't think I care enough for DA3 anyway, the DLC of DA2 is pure, expensive filler shoehorned into the main storyline, and it's almost certain they won't care to answer what most of us want to see anyway. Oh, and multiplayer, there'll be multiplayer, I'd be surprised if they don't force it into the game...looking for thousands of new fans, hehehe.

*Stops and banishes from the thread, I should've never return to this forum...ergh, I didn't learn my lesson*

[DraCZeQQ]

I still think that if Bioware would marked DA2 as Hawke: The Kirkwall Ghostwall shopping spree with small print (vaguely based on Dragon Age universe) ... it would be a hit! for the right crowd anyway. While the Origins crowd would remain calm knowing there is a REAL ORIGINS sequel comming and this is just some kind of dumbed down, rushed spinoff not meant for them 

Modifié par DraCZeQQ, 15 octobre 2011 - 12:42 .

[Myusha]

Meh I like DA2. I mean besides the slightly limited choices, and repeated environment, and lack of people knowing you're a mage, I adore it. Got every single PS3 DLC I could for it too. : D

[Everwarden]

Versago wrote...

@ the two above posters - Gee, what an original thought! It's not like we haven't heard those 'complaints' a million times before... <_<

Gee, what an original reply, pointing out that something has been said before.

Newsflash, friend: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simpsons_Already_Did_It

Everything has been said before. Humans do a lot of talking as a species. 

Modifié par Everwarden, 15 octobre 2011 - 01:17 .

[Barry Bathernak]

Everwarden wrote...

Versago wrote...

@ the two above posters - Gee, what an original thought! It's not like we haven't heard those 'complaints' a million times before... <_<

Gee, what an original reply, pointing out that something has been said before.

Newsflash, friend: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simpsons_Already_Did_It

Everything has been said before. Humans do a lot of talking as a species. 

hahahahaha great episode of soutpark,and great pont that if we all had to be original to say something then 90% of the world would never speak.

[Eski.Moe]

Echoing sentiments of being much happier if it had been marketed as a spinoff or well, anything other than the next numbered title.
I get upset when I think about DA2. It feels incomplete and that's a feeling I probably will never be able to shake off. I don't mind Hawke and I don't mind the story for the most part until we hit the third act where I lost faith completely. And despite this new art style, it's not a pretty game. Graphics, while not everything, are just underwhelming too. It doesn't even have that to fall back on.

Still, it's already done and there's nothing that can be done to change it. I know I won't be anticipating Dragon Age 3 with the same fervour that I was anticipating Dragon Age 2 and that's a shame. I really, really wish it could have been different.

[Heidenreich]

Bah. Don't put words and feelings in other peoples mouths. I adored Origins, and I adore DA2. I own the books, plan on owning the new one, own all of the DLC content for both games..

I also own ME, ME2, pre-ordered ME3, pre-ordered ToR..

Because for me, Bioware can do nothing that isn't golden and lovely.

People take things WAY TO SERIOUSLY. Bioware didn't wrong you, they didn't betray you. They made a video game. A video game that some people DID, AND DO STILL LIKE. A lot of people. A lot more people then the few who continually post in the general discussion forums about how much they didn't like it boo hoo.

*holds up a "GET OVER IT" sign*

[xkg]

Heidenreich wrote...
Because for me, Bioware can do nothing that isn't golden and lovely.

Seriously ? You mean things like for example reused areas and eneimies in full plates jumping from the rooftops in DA2 were "golden and lovely" ideas. Good for you ...

With such an attitude your opinions on anything Bioware related = 0 (read: are worthless).

[Myusha]

OOOOR rather when Heidenreich DOES have criticism it's a big deal compared to how content they are. Don't label anything worthless.