474 réponses à ce sujet

[DarthCaine]

[Dodo feathers]! What? Did they really think we wouldn't notice they cut corners to rush the game in a year? Did really they think we wouldn't notice the copy paste areas? Did they think we wouldn't notice that they cut origins and races? Did they think we wouldn't notice that 99% of weapons and armor look exactly the same without even reskinning? Did they think we wouldn't notice all the bugs at launch? Did they think we wouldn't notice all quests were simply fraking fetch quests? Did they think we wouldn't notice half the music is from Origins?

I seriously doubt they didn't know fans won't be pleased. They just didn't care. The only purpose DA2 served was to cash in on DAO's success.

[no swearing, please.]

Modifié par Stanley Woo, 19 octobre 2011 - 07:59 .

[Everwarden]

JohnEpler wrote...
Seriously. If you want to complain about the moderation being biased, then at the very least -tell- us about disruptive individuals. We are not omniscient.

I did, actually. But there, I did a second time.

Though I'm not usually the type to report someone for being a bit hostile, this guy contributes nothing at all. I don't mind ad homs in addition to an argument, but that's all this guy does. 

[John Epler]

Everwarden wrote...

JohnEpler wrote...
Seriously. If you want to complain about the moderation being biased, then at the very least -tell- us about disruptive individuals. We are not omniscient.

I did, actually. But there, I did a second time.

Though I'm not usually the type to report someone for being a bit hostile, this guy contributes nothing at all. I don't mind ad homs in addition to an argument, but that's all this guy does. 

Let me clarify - the 'report user' function will eventually wend its way to someone who will look at it in the fullness of time. It's visible by EA employees, but not us average forum folk.

I'd recommend PM'ing a moderator. It's far more effective and allows us to react quickly, rather than when either A) we happen to check the thread on our own or  when someone else finally messages us.

[21121313]

It caught me off guard. I really liked DA2....Then again i'm not exactly someone who is on these forums on a daily basis, either.

I did expect that Bioware would have to deal with a fanbase from DA: O that was going to have expectations they would have a very hard time meeting.

I would not want to be a developer for all the tea in China nowadays.....seems keeping everyone happy is getting harder and harder to do on a daily basis in the gaming world. I think juggling the millions of fans while trying to keep them all happy would give me a permanent migraine.....especially with sequels, and more importantly with the post 2000 gaming mentality.

[Stanley Woo]

Some childish bickering removed.

[Morroian]

Phaedros wrote...

When Brent Knowles left (in protest at the direction DA2 was being forced to take)

Only not, I suggest you read more than just that 1 post on his blog, it was more than just his early perception of where the DA franchise was going to go.

Modifié par Morroian, 20 octobre 2011 - 12:11 .

[Starling2105]

I loved both games, but the flaws in DA2 are pretty obvious. I won't pretend it was a polished game by any means.

But the last thing I would want is DA:O 2, I thought it wrapped up and ended nicely. I think had they been given the time the had to work on DA:O with DA2 reactions would be slightly less intense.

Reminds me a lot of KOTOR 2 (I know it was Obsidian but it feels the same). A great first game! Followed by a rushed and unfinished sequel. I enjoyed KOTOR 2 (not to the extend of 1). But the elements were there had they had the time needed it could have been as good as 2 and didn't need to follow Revan.

I feel if anyone is to blame it isn't Bioware, but most likely the publisher. They set the release date and Bioware has to meet them. It is times like this I wish they weren't under EA so they could take the Blizzard "It's ready when it's ready" approach. I'll gladly wait for something fully finished over getting early releases.

[Brockololly]

Starling2105 wrote...
I feel if anyone is to blame it isn't Bioware, but most likely the publisher. They set the release date and Bioware has to meet them. It is times like this I wish they weren't under EA so they could take the Blizzard "It's ready when it's ready" approach. I'll gladly wait for something fully finished over getting early releases.

BioWare has no one to blame but themselves.

As Zeschuk said not too long ago:

"One thing we commonly see is when fans don't like something we do, they put in the comments, 'Oh those EA guys, they're making BioWare do...'  And I always chuckle because we are EA, we're BioWare - we're both, and
we still have huge autonomy in terms of what we do,"

So sure, you could possibly place blame at the people at the top- those setting a release date too soon to try and cash in on the success of Origins (ironically on a game that in many respects isn't like Origins). Whether those people up top are Muzyka or Zeschuk or other EA people, it doesn't matter- they thought that for whatever reason they should rush out a sequel.

But then you can also place blame at the people who thought it a decent idea to try and make such radical changes to what DAO established, assuming they knew they were only going to have a very limited amount of time to push out a sequel. You can argue whether those changes were even a good idea in the first place, but given a limited amount of time where you're hard pressed to even implement them well, I can't see how they could have thought this a good idea, unless they were simply looking at it from the POV of just shipping a game regardless of quality, on a given date.

BioWare is absolutely to "blame" for DA2. Just as much as they might want to take credit for their past successes, they have to own up and take responsibility for their failures too.

Modifié par Brockololly, 20 octobre 2011 - 12:03 .

[AlexXIV]

Brockololly wrote...

Starling2105 wrote...
I feel if anyone is to blame it isn't Bioware, but most likely the publisher. They set the release date and Bioware has to meet them. It is times like this I wish they weren't under EA so they could take the Blizzard "It's ready when it's ready" approach. I'll gladly wait for something fully finished over getting early releases.

BioWare has no one to blame but themselves.

As Zeschuk said not too long ago:

"One thing we commonly see is when fans don't like something we do, they put in the comments, 'Oh those EA guys, they're making BioWare do...'  And I always chuckle because we are EA, we're BioWare - we're both, and
we still have huge autonomy in terms of what we do,"

So sure, you could possibly place blame at the people at the top- those setting a release date too soon to try and cash in on the success of Origins (ironically on a game that in many respects isn't like Origins). Whether those people up top are Muzyka or Zeschuk or other EA people, it doesn't matter- they thought that for whatever reason they should rush out a sequel.

But then you can also place blame at the people who thought it a decent idea to try and make such radical changes to what DAO established, assuming they knew they were only going to have a very limited amount of time to push out a sequel. You can argue whether those changes were even a good idea in the first place, but given a limited amount of time where you're hard pressed to even implement them well, I can't see how they could have thought this a good idea, unless they were simply looking at it from the POV of just shipping a game regardless of quality, on a given date.

BioWare is absolutely to "blame" for DA2. Just as much as they might want to take credit for their past successes, they have to own up and take responsibility for their failures too.

It is also possible that they initially planned to have a longer development and then maybe one year in development they had to make a business decission to get it out earlier. Many things suggest that the fan reaction wasn't the only thing that caught them off-guard

[AlexXIV]

JohnEpler wrote...

Everwarden wrote...

JohnEpler wrote...
Seriously. If you want to complain about the moderation being biased, then at the very least -tell- us about disruptive individuals. We are not omniscient.

I did, actually. But there, I did a second time.

Though I'm not usually the type to report someone for being a bit hostile, this guy contributes nothing at all. I don't mind ad homs in addition to an argument, but that's all this guy does. 

Let me clarify - the 'report user' function will eventually wend its way to someone who will look at it in the fullness of time. It's visible by EA employees, but not us average forum folk.

I'd recommend PM'ing a moderator. It's far more effective and allows us to react quickly, rather than when either A) we happen to check the thread on our own or  when someone else finally messages us.

I couldn't say if the one side is quicker to or more likely to report inappropriate posts but one thing is for sure. If you post and/or read regularly in this forum you get the strong feeling that pro-bio trolls have more freedom than antis. I am neither mind you but this guy you are just talking about is around this forum for weeks if not months acting like this, and nobody stopped him, ever. I didn't report him mind you, but it's funny that mods post in threads where he behaves like this and do nothing to stop it. Yeah, it's double standard like Everwarden said. Sorry if you don't like that, but they are your emloyees, not ours.

[Fast Jimmy]

Morroian wrote...

Phaedros wrote...

When Brent Knowles left (in protest at the direction DA2 was being forced to take)

Only not, I suggest you read more than just that 1 post on his blog, it was more than just his early perception of where the DA franchise was going to go.

It was more than his initial reaction to the future of the Dragon Age franchise, you are correct. He was looking forward to (and is now enjoying) working in a non-corporate environment and having hours determined by himself, all very understandable things.

My twist on this is that when Brent Knowles, who was the direction for a VAST number of Bioware's best titles, we should have read the writing on the wall that the new direction might be vastly different than the decade+ worth of games Brent had a hand in at Bioware.

[Fast Jimmy]

AlexXIV wrote...

It is also possible that they initially planned to have a longer development and then maybe one year in development they had to make a business decission to get it out earlier. Many things suggest that the fan reaction wasn't the only thing that caught them off-guard

This is possible, however also remember that when ME2 shipped, there was already promotion for Dragon Age 2, in the form of a insert that said "2-22-2011" I believe. I may be getting my dates and my venues wrong, but the truth was that Bioware was pushing an early 2011 release date for DA2 not long AT ALL after DAO came out. So it seems unlikely, in my eyes, that Bioware had this release date "sprung" on them.

I still maintain that Bioware sold EA a ME2 2010 release date and then a DA2/ME3 2011 release date as part of the deal for EA to acquire them. To produce three sequels with insanely huge initial IP value all within roughly 18 months of each other (ME2 January 2010, DA2 Winter 2011, ME3 Fall 2011) was a truly enticing deal.

And while ME2 came out and was a great success, DA2 was not, and ME3 was pushed back to a more digestable 2012 release date. The reasons for that may have been the backlash from DA2 cutting corners, it may have not. It likely was a contributing factor, at the very least.

Regardless, I think Bioware was trying to make itself more of what they perceived as the EA mold (rapid sequel generation of blockbuster IPs/ fast paced, action oriented games), which caused them to take the directions they did with DA2 and pursue such an aggressive timetable. If someone has any factual evidence that can refutre this, please feel free to take a wack at me, I'm going strictly off of appearances and gut reaction. But if that is the way things went down, then I'd say the blame lies soley with Bioware. They were like the new kid who said they would ride their bike down Dead Man's Gulch to join the cool kids.

When Bioware didn't even own a bike.

[Everwarden]

AlexXIV wrote...
I couldn't say if the one side is quicker to or more likely to report inappropriate posts but one thing is for sure. If you post and/or read regularly in this forum you get the strong feeling that pro-bio trolls have more freedom than antis. I am neither mind you but this guy you are just talking about is around this forum for weeks if not months acting like this, and nobody stopped him, ever. I didn't report him mind you, but it's funny that mods post in threads where he behaves like this and do nothing to stop it. Yeah, it's double standard like Everwarden said. Sorry if you don't like that, but they are your emloyees, not ours.

Amusingly, my claim of a double-standard has been called 'childish bickering' and been removed. 

They'll likely call this 'confirmation bias', but doesn't that kinda prove my point? I'm not accusing Bioware of being a bunch of draconian censors, but the anti-DA2 crowd certainly has to walk a tightrope to stay unbanned.

Modifié par Everwarden, 20 octobre 2011 - 08:47 .

[ElitePinecone]

Everwarden wrote...
They'll likely call this 'confirmation bias', but doesn't that kinda prove my point? I'm not accusing Bioware of being a bunch of draconian censors, but the anti-DA2 crowd certainly has to walk a tightrope to stay unbanned.

Not at all - just don't be a dick about it. That's not an insult aimed at you personally. 

If you explain what you disliked about DA2 civilly, Bioware are much more likely to read what you say and take it seriously. Stanley Woo has done a wonderful job responding to people's criticism recently (including mine) and John Epler, David Gaider and others frequently post in the forum when the atmosphere is constructive rather than mindless. 

It's hardly a surprise that people don't like being yelled at - let alone insulted, or have it insinuated that they be fired - on their own forum. There's a way to be critical about DA2 while respecting the people who made it. Conjuring elaborate conspiracies about banning of critics probably isn't a good start. 

[AlexXIV]

Well I am not saying they do it wrong. It's their show, they can run it as they like. We are just guests. But you have to be able say the truth. I mean if they like the 'pro's better then the 'anti's then why not just say so. I have been on boards that have been moderated much more tightly than this. You couldn't say anything negative, not even if it was constructive critizism. So I am not complaining. I just wanted to say that Everwarden is not alone with his opinion.

And let's face it. The trolls, no matter which side, won't lose face here. Because non of us random users have to show our face. Bioware are the only ones who have to show it and the only ones in danger of losing it. For example if people start to dislike this forum for one reason or another. So chopping troll posts on both sides is in Bioware's best interest.

Modifié par AlexXIV, 20 octobre 2011 - 09:57 .

[ScotGaymer]

eroeru wrote...

@FitScotGaymer
Judging by the forums, most Bioware fans were displeased in one way or another. (or just "meh" about it)

Actually that poll is really ambiguous and can not be relied upon as a good sample of wether people liked DA2 or not. For example I voted "I Prefer DAO" because I do prefer it but that doesnt mean is dislike DA2.

So using that poll to support the "most folk didnt like DA2" arguement is wrong.

[xkg]

FitScotGaymer wrote...

eroeru wrote...

@FitScotGaymer
Judging by the forums, most Bioware fans were displeased in one way or another. (or just "meh" about it)

Actually that poll is really ambiguous and can not be relied upon as a good sample of wether people liked DA2 or not. For example I voted "I Prefer DAO" because I do prefer it but that doesnt mean is dislike DA2.

So using that poll to support the "most folk didnt like DA2" arguement is wrong.

Then look at the rest of Sharkey1337's polls, not only at this linked one.
http://social.biowar...m/956165/polls/  ('DA2 Yay or Nay' for example)

Maybe not "the most of them" - "more" would be better word here.

[Wulfram]

Considering how good a game Origins is, 34% thinking DA2 is as good or better isn't bad at all.

Though of course the sample isn't going to be anything like representative.

[Vlad_Dracul]

Wulfram wrote...

Considering how good a game Origins is, 34% thinking DA2 is as good or better isn't bad at all.

Though of course the sample isn't going to be anything like representative.

Honestly, in DAO i had same number of things what i disliked, like in DA2. Dragon Age 2 just solved some stuff from previous game and made another ones.

[eroeru]

FitScotGaymer wrote...

eroeru wrote...

@FitScotGaymer
Judging by the forums, most Bioware fans were displeased in one way or another. (or just "meh" about it)

Actually that poll is really ambiguous and can not be relied upon as a good sample of wether people liked DA2 or not. For example I voted "I Prefer DAO" because I do prefer it but that doesnt mean is dislike DA2.

So using that poll to support the "most folk didnt like DA2" arguement is wrong.

Yeah, the link wasn't the best one... The one provided by xkg is better in this respect.
But I was more interested in the comment sections anyway... And it seems most is either hate or "meh", saying that DA2 wasn't anything spectacular. That already is a downfall from the qualities of the first production.

The thing really bothering me is the new statement saying that Bioware isn't making games aiming for quality, their priority are those of marketing-value. This is the main reason behind the differences in two DA's and if this standard will be upheld, it will more likely bring quantity over quality, also in future productions.

As for the "childish bickering" on these forums, yes it's out of place, but Bioware employees shouldn't come off angry (as they do right now). The eminating attitude of "so many commentators on these forums are stupid" and that "most criticism should be fought back" is a really bad one, having in mind both business and the well-being of the forums I think.

[eroeru]

JohnEpler wrote...
Can you guess how many reports I've gotten about Versago this go around? I'll give you a hint - it's somewhere between zero and none.

Seriously. If you want to complain about the moderation being biased, then at the very least -tell- us about disruptive individuals. We are not omniscient.

You should aim for that though.
And I've always thought that the "report this post" button is there for a reason. I'm clearly mistaken.

Modifié par eroeru, 20 octobre 2011 - 03:17 .

[Stanley Woo]

eroeru wrote...

JohnEpler wrote...
Can you guess how many reports I've gotten about Versago this go around? I'll give you a hint - it's somewhere between zero and none.

Seriously. If you want to complain about the moderation being biased, then at the very least -tell- us about disruptive individuals. We are not omniscient.

You should aim for that though.
And I've always thought that the "report this post" button is there for a reason. I'm clearly mistaken.

You are not. As John Epler said, the REPORT POST button sends reports to the EA Community team, and it can take a while for such reports to get to us here at BioWare, if they get to us at all. A much more efficient way of alerting us to trouble or potential trouble is to send one of us Moderators a PM with a link to the problem thread/post/profile and a short description of what to look for, whether it be a user name, post, or even where on the page we should be looking. The more information you can give to us, the better we can investigate the issue. These forums are here for you, and the more you help to make it a fun, clean, safe place to hang out and talk about BioWare and games, the better a place it will be.

You are correct, though. It is far more difficult to identify a troll if they are pro-something than if they are anti-something. The antis generally tend to rant and swear and insult and call people names, while the pros will merely post positive sounding messages. This does not and should not, however, prevent people from reporting such trolls when they find them.

the term "troll" is being thrown around far too much recently. It is being used to indicate merely disagreeable opinions or disagreeable people rather than to identify those who intentionally rile up the forumites just to provoke an extreme reaction. Let's try to keep this in mind, and identify trolls correctly.

If you have any questions or concerns regarding our community or this message, please let me know. Thank you.

[Stanley Woo]

Everwarden wrote...
Amusingly, my claim of a double-standard has been called 'childish bickering' and been removed. 

They'll likely call this 'confirmation bias', but doesn't that kinda prove my point? I'm not accusing Bioware of being a bunch of draconian censors, but the anti-DA2 crowd certainly has to walk a tightrope to stay unbanned.

When you don't send us any PMs to alert us to trouble, you can't very well complain that we're not dealing with said trouble. I, for one, investigate every PM I get regarding potential trouble on the forums. Whinging about it within a problem thread doesn't help, since we Moderators don't and can't read every post in every thread in every forum, 24 hours a day. We rely on helpful community members to alert us to potential problems.

People whinge and complain a lot in threads. That's not reporting trouble. Sending us a PM is reporting trouble. Not responding to one of our posts, not posting a comment on our profiles, not making it your signature. I encourage everyone to send us private messages when problems come up in the forums. Thank you.

[TheRealJayDee]

Stanley Woo wrote...
You are correct, though. It is far more difficult to identify a troll if they are pro-something than if they are anti-something. The antis generally tend to rant and swear and insult and call people names, while the pros will merely post positive sounding messages. This does not and should not, however, prevent people from reporting such trolls when they find them.

I've been on this boards since sometime during the development of DA2 until today, and maybe I'm biased because I'm more of an "anti" myself, but somehow I never felt much difference between "pros" and "antis" regarding behaviour. The most namecalling I notice myself is "pros" calling "antis" something in the likes of "whiner" and complain about them still being around and voicing criticsim.

As to the poster who started the reporting discussion, it is really really hard not to notice him and his obnoxious posts and quotings. I'm not here as much as around the release, but he was the first person I ever came close to reporting, because every single post I saw from him was really just pointless and annoying. It feels like people got banned for less imo.