474 réponses à ce sujet

[Stanley Woo]

TheRealJayDee wrote...
I've been on this boards since sometime during the development of DA2 until today, and maybe I'm biased because I'm more of an "anti" myself, but somehow I never felt much difference between "pros" and "antis" regarding behaviour. The most namecalling I notice myself is "pros" calling "antis" something in the likes of "whiner" and complain about them still being around and voicing criticsim.

And "antis" will call people "fanboys" for deigning to voice support for a game they happen to enjoy. Both sides can be disagreeable and be jerkfaces, yes, I will grant you that, but when it comes to trolling, it's eay easier to see "this game sucks donkeys and everyone should be fired!" than it is to see "this is the awesomest game ever and everyone should be promoted!" as evidence of trolling. That's why it's important for all of our community members to report potential problems that they see on the forums, and important for everyone to discuss, debate, and argue in a constructive, civil manner.

As to the poster who started the reporting discussion, it is really really hard not to notice him and his obnoxious posts and quotings. I'm not here as much as around the release, but he was the first person I ever came close to reporting, because every single post I saw from him was really just pointless and annoying. It feels like people got banned for less imo.

People can only be banned if they are investigated by a Moderator and deemed to be in flagrant violation of our posted rules, or if they have violated the rules often. And they can only be investigated by a Moderator if their behaviour has been reported in a PM to a Moderator. That's all I'm saying.

[eroeru]

Thanks Stanley for the clear and nice reply. I'm delighted...

[Bestyj669]

Sigh ... "Users vs Forum team" on a gaming forum... Brings back good memories...

Whether or not the claim is valid forum team always gets the blame. Not a lot changed in ~5 years.

[TheRealJayDee]

Stanley Woo wrote...

And "antis" will call people "fanboys" for deigning to voice support for a game they happen to enjoy. Both sides can be disagreeable and be jerkfaces, yes, I will grant you that, but when it comes to trolling, it's eay easier to see "this game sucks donkeys and everyone should be fired!" than it is to see "this is the awesomest game ever and everyone should be promoted!" as evidence of trolling. That's why it's important for all of our community members to report potential problems that they see on the forums, and important for everyone to discuss, debate, and argue in a constructive, civil manner.

Always doing my best to stay civil, as do most others. But, yeah, I understand the difficulties, and believe me, I don't envy you guys having to deal with everything going on here all day. And I guess you are doing a pretty good job.

Stanley Woo wrote...

People can only be banned if they are investigated by a Moderator and deemed to be in flagrant violation of our posted rules, or if they have violated the rules often. And they can only be investigated by a Moderator if their behaviour has been reported in a PM to a Moderator. That's all I'm saying.

Aye, understood/agreed. Do we need to PM you about this Versago person though?

[TheRealJayDee]

Yatta! My first double post ever.

Modifié par TheRealJayDee, 21 octobre 2011 - 12:35 .

[Everwarden]

Bestyj669 wrote...

Sigh ... "Users vs Forum team" on a gaming forum... Brings back good memories...

Whether or not the claim is valid forum team always gets the blame. Not a lot changed in ~5 years.

To be completely fair, here, Bioware has -not- banned people simply for disliking the game. Or I wouldn't be posting here right now.

I stand by my statement that they wear kid-gloves with the pro-DA2 crowd, but it is their forum. 

[DRTJR]

I liked DA2, It had better VA's, I LOVE the new Elf designs, it has memorable Characters, and it looks pretty.

It has it flaws, and citizen cane it is not But, it is good and a solid 8.5 to 9 in my book, Better than awakening, inferior to Origins, Leagues above Mass Effect 1 & 2[In my VERY biased opinion].

[Travie]

Of the 6 friends I have that actually played DA2 (some didn't buy it once they heard about it), only one said she enjoyed it.

...and for her part she disliked what the DA team did to crafting.

In other words, I've never met anyone who didn't think the game had major flaws, and other then this forum I've never spoken to anyone online who didn't think the same.

Hey, it could just be a coincidence, but it isn't.

[Firky]

Everwarden wrote...

I stand by my statement that they wear kid-gloves with the pro-DA2 crowd, but it is their forum. 

I never used to understand why people would say that the pro-DA2 crowd were being nasty. Being pro-DA2 myself, all I saw were a whole bunch of people calling me "stupid" etc. Recently, though, I criticised an aspect of the game and felt like I was attacked for it, so now I get it. It's not nice from either side and that whole "Love it or go away" thing feels awful to a long time BioWare fan. But, I do think the moderators have been doing a great job in a tricky situation.

As for fan reaction and being caught off guard... I was anticipating "backlash" before the game was released, but I do think that the way many detractors have gone about really stamping hard on the game's reputation, and very overtly challenging people who do like it or think it's great, has made it difficult for a truer picture to emerge. I can't really think of another game that has had quite that kind of reception. (I thought DAII would be received like Civ V, pre-release.)

[ElitePinecone]

Firky wrote...
the way many detractors have gone about really stamping hard on the game's reputation, and very overtly challenging people who do like it or think it's great, has made it difficult for a truer picture to emerge.

This is true. 

It means that constructive criticism (even if it's negative) is swamped by unreasonably harsh rhetoric, and positive sentiments, even if they're qualified, are greeted by claims of trolling or fanboyism. It's a very ugly atmosphere sometimes. 

The polarising reaction is troubling, because there seems to be a fair number of people who are just... pathologically bent on being dissatisfied with every single aspect of DA2, and can't process the notion that things might get better. 

For sure, some people might despise DA2 and everything it stands for; some might love it to bits unconditionally. But I'd wager there are a lot of people in the middle who have helpful things to offer about what they liked and disliked, and at the moment it's hard to be in this position without being accused of being a blind hater or an equally blind slave to EA corporatism (or whatever ridiculous rhetoric people are using this week). 

I guess I'd hope that feedback methods like the Constructive Criticism thread on the BSN give Bioware a way to sort through the criticism and praise carefully, without thinking that the seething rage-threads represent all the diversity of opinion about the game. 

[addiction21]

Firky wrote...

Everwarden wrote...

I stand by my statement that they wear kid-gloves with the pro-DA2 crowd, but it is their forum. 

I never used to understand why people would say that the pro-DA2 crowd were being nasty. Being pro-DA2 myself, all I saw were a whole bunch of people calling me "stupid" etc. Recently, though, I criticised an aspect of the game and felt like I was attacked for it, so now I get it. It's not nice from either side and that whole "Love it or go away" thing feels awful to a long time BioWare fan. But, I do think the moderators have been doing a great job in a tricky situation.

The "nasty" comes from both sides. The same people that damned me and called me a blind fanboy sheep in one thread for saying that I prefered the voice over protag cheered me on when I displayed my displeasure with the unique apperances, and that is just losing the stats I dont care about apperances honestly.

It all comes from both sides of the fences.The only bias I actualy see are from the "anti" and "pro" DA2 crowds. How there side does nothing wrong and its always the other side.

This whole BS with Vessago (or whatever his alter ego is at the moment is) shows it. I only see one person feeding him and egging him on but its ban him not the other one. Let just ignore the person that agrees with me that is being just as disruptive and "trolling" just as much.

Takes two to tango

It to often comes down to this idea of being on one side or the other. Your with me or against me.

[shinyelf]

I feel really sad that there are some people out there bashing DA2 for being different than DAO. I mean come on, DAO was gold, platinum, perfection, DAO is still one of the best games out there BUT it seems that people are blinded by nostalgia.
DA2 is a great game, it is more alive (graphics), more action filled (better paced) and the dialogue is way better.
Now DAO had nice story, with a great continuity, but no pacing, we were always epic, never down on out luck, forever som bastard child of god and god, we never had to struggle.
DA2 is about building a life and rising to greatness, not just being great.
I think that people should speak their mind, but they should also consider the facts before they start flinging poop at everything.
DA2 --> good
DAO --> perfection

[xkg]

shinyelf wrote...
I think that people should speak their mind, but they should also consider the facts before they start flinging poop at everything.

Ok lets look at your "facts".

shinyelf wrote...
DA2 is a great game, it is more alive (graphics), more action filled (better paced) and the dialogue is way better.

All four are only your opinions and mine are completely different.

1. Is mediocre at best.
2. New graphics style doesn't look more alive at all nor does lifeless Kirkwall.
3. This "more action" thing is biggest dissapointment for me. Jumping monkeys in full plates ? No thank you. I liked slower paced DAO's combat better.
4. Dialogues are better ?... hmmm ok, no comments. I don't want to be a dragon, no thank you.

shinyelf wrote...
Now DAO had nice story, with a great continuity, but no pacing, we were always epic, never down on out luck, forever som bastard child of god and god, we never had to struggle.
DA2 is about building a life and rising to greatness, not just being great.

In RPGs i like epic sotries and I like being a hero.
When i feel like playing a "life building and rising to greatness" game - there are games out there like THE SIMS.

shinyelf wrote...
I feel really sad that there are some people out there bashing DA2 for being different than DAO. I mean come on, DAO was gold, platinum, perfection, DAO is still one of the best games out there BUT it seems that people are blinded by nostalgia.

Blinded by nostalgia ? 2 years old game ? hahah. No, I am not blinded. I just feel that the game is very poor, that's all.

So I tried very hard but couldn't find even a single "fact" in your post. Sorry, try again.

Modifié par xkg, 21 octobre 2011 - 02:21 .

[R0vena]

I started to post on this forum only after DA 2 came out despite the fact I was playing Bioware games for many years. I just don't have time to sit at forums. But I really was surprised with the reaction and statements "DA 2 is awful and any true old-school RPG-player hates it!" I just wanted to add my voice to say "I enjoyed it, to me it was a great experience - yes, despite its flaws which it definitely has."

[Bestyj669]

Everwarden wrote...

Bestyj669 wrote...

Sigh ... "Users vs Forum team" on a gaming forum... Brings back good memories...

Whether or not the claim is valid forum team always gets the blame. Not a lot changed in ~5 years.

To be completely fair, here, Bioware has -not- banned people simply for disliking the game. Or I wouldn't be posting here right now.

I stand by my statement that they wear kid-gloves with the pro-DA2 crowd, but it is their forum. 

I was not saying you were wrong or right. I don't spend near enough time on those forums to make such judgements. 

Whole situation just brought some memories of when I used to be forum admin. Staying "neutral in the eyes of the users" is next to impossible.

[ScotGaymer]

eroeru wrote...

FitScotGaymer wrote...

eroeru wrote...

@FitScotGaymer
Judging by the forums, most Bioware fans were displeased in one way or another. (or just "meh" about it)

Actually that poll is really ambiguous and can not be relied upon as a good sample of wether people liked DA2 or not. For example I voted "I Prefer DAO" because I do prefer it but that doesnt mean is dislike DA2.

So using that poll to support the "most folk didnt like DA2" arguement is wrong.

Yeah, the link wasn't the best one... The one provided by xkg is better in this respect.
But I was more interested in the comment sections anyway... And it seems most is either hate or "meh", saying that DA2 wasn't anything spectacular. That already is a downfall from the qualities of the first production.

The thing really bothering me is the new statement saying that Bioware isn't making games aiming for quality, their priority are those of marketing-value. This is the main reason behind the differences in two DA's and if this standard will be upheld, it will more likely bring quantity over quality, also in future productions.

As for the "childish bickering" on these forums, yes it's out of place, but Bioware employees shouldn't come off angry (as they do right now). The eminating attitude of "so many commentators on these forums are stupid" and that "most criticism should be fought back" is a really bad one, having in mind both business and the well-being of the forums I think.

Well having checked the other polls or rather the actual poll that is relevant to our dicussion; it seems to support what I said and not what you or that other poster are saying.

That the community is approximately split 50/50 on the like/dislike of DA2.

The whining comes from a very vocal minority of lovers and of haters, that are frankly probably the most annoy group of posters ever.

EDIT:
Lol@at the people who think DAO was this perfect do no wrong game.

Christ. No game is perfectly done. No game has no bugs, or flaws. It just isnt possible to create the perfect game; and lets face it DAO was far from the perfect game.

It was great, totally awesomesauce; but perfect? No.

Modifié par FitScotGaymer, 21 octobre 2011 - 04:41 .

[xkg]

^ Yep. You are soooooo right. And probably the same group is "whining" on every other forum, on youtube DA2 videos (comments), on metacritics, reviews commoents ... hell, everywhere.

We are moving like a pack of wolves from forum to forum, from site to site trying to bomb this game's perfect reputation.

WE 'the very vocal minority'.


And BTW. I said that more people said NO than YES for DA2. And that's exactly what that poll shows.
Don't twist words in your favour.

Modifié par xkg, 21 octobre 2011 - 05:00 .

[eroeru]

FitScotGaymer wrote...

Well having checked the other polls or rather the actual poll that is relevant to our dicussion; it seems to support what I said and not what you or that other poster are saying.

That the community is approximately split 50/50 on the like/dislike of DA2.

The whining comes from a very vocal minority of lovers and of haters, that are frankly probably the most annoy group of posters ever.

EDIT:
Lol@at the people who think DAO was this perfect do no wrong game.

Christ. No game is perfectly done. No game has no bugs, or flaws. It just isnt possible to create the perfect game; and lets face it DAO was far from the perfect game.

It was great, totally awesomesauce; but perfect? No.

I see very-very many people having problems with DA2, at the same time loving Origins (this doesn't mean they think it's perfect, I haven't seen that statement anywhere). With Origins there wasn't any such strong disapproval, for logical reasons.

But for another piece of info to support my claim there's always this...

In short-term understanding, DA2 did well, but in terms of quality and image (having considered the PR, haste and simplification of the overall...)... it can easily be saddening.

I don't want to beat the dead horse and review it all over, but I did think of another analogy: DA:O as the Evangelion re-makes (good, but not in the quality of the original series, those being analogous to BG), and DA2 as the Transformers' movies. Some same tropes and overall action, but done with very different artistic tastes. (though comparing Eva movies with the series would be a bit more consistent as an analogy, I found the Eva movies good only because I've seen the series. DA2 is bad just because I played the first). 

Long story short, DA2 seems certainly more commerce.

Modifié par eroeru, 21 octobre 2011 - 05:17 .

[DarkSun522]

shinyelf wrote...

I feel really sad that there are some people out there bashing DA2 for being different than DAO. I mean come on, DAO was gold, platinum, perfection, DAO is still one of the best games out there BUT it seems that people are blinded by nostalgia.
DA2 is a great game, it is more alive (graphics), more action filled (better paced) and the dialogue is way better.
Now DAO had nice story, with a great continuity, but no pacing, we were always epic, never down on out luck, forever som bastard child of god and god, we never had to struggle.
DA2 is about building a life and rising to greatness, not just being great.
I think that people should speak their mind, but they should also consider the facts before they start flinging poop at everything.

Totally 100% facts except...

shinyelf wrote...

DA2 --> perfection
DAO --> good

Yep.

[Joy Divison]

FitScotGaymer wrote...

Lol@at the people who think DAO was this perfect do no wrong game.

Who thinks that?

[ScotGaymer]

@xkg

Firstly you used the wrong poll to support your arguement. And your arguement that most folk didnt like DA2. Thats what u said in.

And the polls show that its approximately a 50/50 split as I originally said. So I am not really twisting anything. You just cant handle being proven wrong, but whatever. Not going to argue with you.

EDIT2:
Dont wanna argue but, plenty of people dislike the game without ranting and whinging about it. they are capable of expressing their distaste in a constructive way. So I wasnt accusing everyone who dislikes the game of being whiners, nor was I dismissing those people.
If they dislike the game then they dislike the game. Thats fine, I get it; there are legitimate reasons for not liking the game.

For myself I like it.


@eroeru

DA2's sales doesnt mean that it was a crap game, or that DAO was "perfect". Nor does it mean it the game didnt make money, or wasnt successful or profitable.

Expectation is what ruined DA2 for a lot of people, including you evidently. Expectation as a result of the ****** poor marketing from Bioware, and expectation that DA2 would instead be DAO 2.0.

If you stop and try to think logically for a moment; take the expectation out of the equation, if you imagine it as a completely new game for a completely new IP. Do you think you would have disliked it as much as you do?

Initially I had the same negative reaction as most people about DA2. I was massively dissapointed at how short it was, at how boring the parachuting waves of heavily armoured ninja's made combat, how irritatingly uninteresting the repeated maps made the game feel, and at how the ending felt like the game had slapped me and laughed at me like Nelson going "haw haw your choices mean nothing, there was no point to playing this game".
But when I stopped myself, and thought about WHY I disliked the game, and what I disliked about it and indeed what I liked about it; I came to the conclusion that half of my dissapointment and dislike for the game was simply because it was called DRAGON AGE 2 and it was a BIOWARE GAME; therefore I expected something that I didnt get.

Taking that away I thought to myself "this game was actually alright, not fantastic but alright. a decent effort that could have used a longer dev cycle to be properly polished."
That was my ultimate response, and that is the stance I take today.


@Joy Division

A few people said something along those lines in this thread, and others. Makes me laugh.


EDIT:
@DarkSun

Will you please stop flamebaiting?

Modifié par FitScotGaymer, 21 octobre 2011 - 08:16 .

[xkg]

FitScotGaymer wrote...
@xkg
Firstly you used the wrong poll to support your arguement. And your arguement that most folk didnt like DA2. Thats what u said in.

Did I say that ? Really ?

Ok, let's have a look then :

xkg wrote...

FitScotGaymer wrote...

eroeru wrote...
@FitScotGaymer
Judging by the forums, most Bioware fans were displeased in one way or another. (or just "meh" about it)

Actually that poll is really ambiguous and can not be relied upon as a good sample of wether people liked DA2 or not. For example I voted "I Prefer DAO" because I do prefer it but that doesnt mean is dislike DA2.

So using that poll to support the "most folk didnt like DA2" arguement is wrong.

Then look at the rest of Sharkey1337's polls, not only at this linked one.
http://social.biowar...m/956165/polls/  ('DA2 Yay or Nay' for example)

Maybe not "the most of them" - "more" would be better word here.

But of course feel free now to quote my post where I said that "most folk didn't like DA2". Good luck finding it.

Modifié par xkg, 21 octobre 2011 - 08:29 .

[ScotGaymer]

Whatever you like man.

Not gonna argue wi you.

[TheRealJayDee]

FitScotGaymer wrote...

DA2's sales doesnt mean that it was a crap game, or that DAO was "perfect". Nor does it mean it the game didnt make money, or wasnt successful or profitable.

Expectation is what ruined DA2 for a lot of people, including you evidently. Expectation as a result of the ****** poor marketing from Bioware, and expectation that DA2 would instead be DAO 2.0.

If you stop and try to think logically for a moment; take the expectation out of the equation, if you imagine it as a completely new game for a completely new IP. Do you think you would have disliked it as much as you do?

Initially I had the same negative reaction as most people about DA2. I was massively dissapointed at how short it was, at how boring the parachuting waves of heavily armoured ninja's made combat, how irritatingly uninteresting the repeated maps made the game feel, and at how the ending felt like the game had slapped me and laughed at me like Nelson going "haw haw your choices mean nothing, there was no point to playing this game".
But when I stopped myself, and thought about WHY I disliked the game, and what I disliked about it and indeed what I liked about it; I came to the conclusion that half of my dissapointment and dislike for the game was simply because it was called DRAGON AGE 2 and it was a BIOWARE GAME; therefore I expected something that I didnt get.

If to enjoy DA2 you need to ignore the company that made it and the game it was marketed to be the sequel to, then maybe there's just something wrong with DA2. If I buy a new Mercedes S-class model and it turns out to be a less than satisfying car, is it somehow my duty to ignore it's a Mercedes and that the previous model was a truly great car?

Yes, if DA2 had not come after DA:O the dissapointment would have been not as great, as far as I'm concerned. Still, there are a lot of things that would have hurt DA2 even as a standalone game. Fact is, DA2 is the direct sequel to DA:O, has been marketed as such and will be judged as such.