474 réponses à ce sujet

[AlexXIV]

Reaverwind wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

Thing is I had problems with DA:O already, because Bioware has always been streamlining and not offering as many freedoms for players as other games. But so far it has always been ... acceptable. Just it looks like they are pushing towards giving players less and less option to actually interact with the story, as in letting players write a part of it too.

I think, rather than projection, the problem some people have with DA2 is the same as they had with all their games. Even though I enjoyed all of them, I always saw the difference between their games and Obsidian/Bethesda. Being that other developers allow the player to tell their own story, as in opposite to Bioware who is telling the story and at best give the player an illusion of choice.

As I said it was always so with Bioware. But some people maybe hoped they would start to give more freedoms to players some time, but realized they go more and more the other direction. Which culminated in DA2 where you basically feel like nothing you do changes anything. Even though it may not always be true, it is the general vibe of the game. And then we can stop making roleplaying games tbh, because that's what rpgs are about. Other than that we can just watch a movie or play a shooter or other action games who also have a story in which the player does also not have much influence other than maybe tactics to kill enemies.

Bioware has long been criticised as 'masters of the illusion of choice', so it should surprise no one that their increasing focus on a restricted cinematic approach is not going to be well-received by those who want to evolve their own stories within the game's framework - which is the main reason I play RPG's. If I wanted a more structured approach - I'd play Halo, which does a much better job letting you actually experience the story than any of Bioware's games - which brings me to another criticism: Bioware's bad habit of telling, not showing. Imo, Bioware went from bad to worse with DA2.

Exactly. It's not so much that they suddenly do everything wrong, just that they continue on a bad way. Of course it is a matter of opinion. But DA:O was very well done, so this obvious flaw was accepted by many. But then if things don't work out as well, like in DA2, then people don't forgive streamlining either.

[eroeru]

FitScotGaymer wrote...

If you stop and try to think logically for a moment; take the expectation out of the equation, if you imagine it as a completely new game for a completely new IP. Do you think you would have disliked it as much as you do?

First off, yes. I usually don't buy anything with similar qualities (or "style"). (and this is a claim that is not holding any comparison).

I must say it simply took all the (imo) good parts away from Origins (or altered them into a beast of stark if not opposing contrast) and made me a bit sick (only a bit ) from the very first realizations of the mechanics, story-telling, dialogue etc. The fact that I was expecting something else is important, but it didn't hold any direct influence on my natural reaction on the game-play. Of course I would not have bothered myself so much with it if I didn't love Origins - I felt an obligation to play it because of that.
(yes, with the statement that it took away from Origins, I'm of course comparing the two, this for obvious reasons - you did it yourself, I was replying. But the comparison - and the fact I liked previous Bioware games - is important only to the aspect of playing the game in the situation where I actually, judging purely by its qualities, didn't want to + to the whole thing about the misinforming PR and title).

I'll  always stay with my opinion that DA2 is less mature (not in a way that's necessarily bad though) and for me not interesting in-itself to play (probably always - and simply because I've looked into it, played and analyzed the thing all over, and quite much at that).

More importantly though, I think it's unnecessary to think of DA2 without its full context. And from the contextual knowledge comes my greater disappointment, thus it's quite understandable and not without reason. I don't really get what's so neat about the "thing in-itself".

FitScotGaymer wrote...

Taking that away I thought to myself "this game was actually
alright, not fantastic but alright. a decent effort that could have used
a longer dev cycle to be properly polished."
That was my ultimate response, and that is the stance I take today.

But my point wasn't that DA2 is "crap" (as you put the words into my mouth - though it really is my very personal opinion if in full context). It was that DA2 is a low-spot for Bioware, a new direction that is somewhat bad in the light of many players being disappointed and most thinking it's a downfall from DA:O, which you claimed you can refute, but you haven't been able to convince.

eroeru wrote...

But I was more interested in the comment
sections anyway... And it seems most is either hate or "meh", saying
that DA2 wasn't anything spectacular. That already is a downfall from
the qualities of the first production.

Most seem to have it that DA2 wasn't anything really special and that Bioware has done far better. You seem to be of a similar opinion yourself. + there's the whole image of the company which presents itself via the PR, overall strategy and whatnot.

Ok, "many" would be more correct, but I'll not bother with the specifics (though I think it's an ok probability that these who thought DA2 to be a downfall of some degree are in the majority, I cannot offer irrifutible evidence - simply because of the claim itself - it's more of an estimate, with neither positive or negative "proven" results)...


*I edited alot... I'm not very good at English, and wanted to make the post more correct this time *

Modifié par eroeru, 22 octobre 2011 - 07:31 .

[eroeru]

bEVEsthda wrote...

To me, the reasons why DA2 is so harshly received are very obvious. Those who dislike DA2 do it with a passion that is far more deeply rooted than just because of the trivial 'flaws' of DA2. The emotional 'heat' stems from something else. Those emotions are then projected on every 'flaw' that is possible to find in the game. But those flaws wouldn't be a big deal if people had actually liked the game.

The dislike/hate is fueled by DA2's connection with DA:O. True. But it's not primarily about expectations. Of course people had expectations, and of course there are reasons for disappointment. But heated dislike (hate) is fueled by something else. If DA2 was just a game like others, we'd just drop it in the can and say "Well good luck with that POS, Bioware, and good luck trying to sell me another game", and turn our backs to it. -Or, maybe we'd even enjoy it enough on some superficial plane, and put it on the shelf, and indifferently forget all about it.

But that's not where we are.
First, I'm convinced that the reasons for the dislike is often primarily the "new style". The new style is from an advertisers simplistic "vision". And that advertiser thinks videogames are for kids. And that vision is about a fully integrated DA world of comics, anime, movies. A DA universe as a Disney or Transformers universe, with a fixed and easily recognizable cast of stereothypical persona. The mood and emphasis of the new style - whether it's about humor, apparel, weapon and armor design, animation, looks, combat - is surface only, over-the-top, cartoony, childish, unrealistic, flippant, "kewl", "fun".

But for many of us, the appeal of games like DA:O and TW2 is the mature and serious mood. That it's not just about surface but 'the inner form'. It takes itself seriously. And the 'flamboyant' style that DA2 and many eastern games for teenagers embraces, is not just something we don't care about. We can easily get into a position where we actually despise it. Have contempt for it. We maybe wouldn't, if we intentionally purchased something we expected that flamboyant style from, but...

So here we were, bubbling with excitement about DA, expecting to be so cosy with a big, important franchise, for years. Finally a fantasy RPG franchise that was, very much, not perfect but close enough, what we had always wanted, all the time since BG. And what do EA's advertisers do with it? probably brainwashing Bioware staff in long meetings, just like they did with Maxis and Spore? They turn it into just another silly, childish console romp, that looks in many elements to be pathologically influenced by generic, low-quality fantasy games and anime. Something contemptible.
Objectively, it's maybe not exactly "contemptible". But from the overbearing stench of advertisers calculation/speculation, and viewed from the position of wanting a game more in the mood and style of DA:O and TW2, - it is contemptible.
DA2 is hated because it killed the DA of DA:O.

So there you have the "heat" of the emotions, the everlasting bashing of DA2. IMO of course.
But I do believe this. And that leads to a word of warning: A DA3 that is just a polished and better DA2, might be slightly better received than DA2, simply because of better gameplay and because most of the hatred from the betrayal of DA:O's heritage has fumed away over the years, but I'm not gonna buy it. And neither will a lot of other people.

Quoted for truth.
A wonderfully expressed view on it, and as far as I'm concerned, insightful.

[ScotGaymer]

Joy Divison wrote...


You are saying the same thing.

I can honestly assure you my dislike/disappointment/annoyance in DA2 comes from inherent flaws of the game.

We don't think DA:O is a perfect flawless game, we think there were enough good qualitites in the game to overcome its flaws.

You act as if one cannot be "fair" and dislike DA2.  What exactly does it mean to be "fair"?  Why would I spend $60 on something and want to ruin a franchise I really enjoyed?

As I said.

I didnt mean it to come off like that and I apologise if it did.

I havent seen many posts by you so I dunno if you have been unfair or not. As I said "some of the people who disliked the game" not ALL of the people who disliked it. If you took that to mean you and people like you then perhaps you should think about why that is?

Cos I clarified that in my post that you quoted.

eroeru wrote...


First off, yes. I usually don't buy
anything with similar qualities (or "style"). (and this is a claim that
is not holding any comparison).

I must say it simply took all the
(imo) good parts away from Origins (or altered them into a beast of
stark if not opposing contrast) and made me a bit sick (only a bit )
from the very first realizations of the mechanics, story-telling,
dialogue etc. The fact that I was expecting something else is important,
but it didn't hold any direct influence on my natural reaction on the
game-play. Of course I would not have bothered myself so much with it if
I didn't love Origins - I felt an obligation to play it because of
that.
(yes, with the statement that it took away from Origins, I'm of
course comparing the two, this for obvious reasons - you did it
yourself, I was replying. But the comparison - and the fact I liked
previous Bioware games - is important only to the aspect of playing the
game in the situation where I actually, judging purely by its qualities,
didn't want to + to the whole thing about the misinforming PR and
title).

I'll  always stay with my opinion that DA2 is less
mature (not in a way that's necessarily bad though) and for me not
interesting in-itself to play (probably always - and simply because I've looked into it, played and analyzed the thing all over, and quite much at that).

More
importantly though, I think it's unnecessary to think of DA2 without
its full context. And from the contextual knowledge comes my greater
disappointment, thus it's quite understandable and not without reason. I
don't really get what's so neat about the "thing in-itself".


But
my point wasn't that DA2 is "crap" (as you put the words into my mouth -
though it really is my very personal opinion if in full context). It
was that DA2 is a low-spot for Bioware, a new direction that is somewhat
bad in the light of many players being disappointed and most thinking
it's a downfall from DA:O, which you claimed you can refute, but you
haven't been able to convince.

Sorry I didnt mean to come off like I was targetting you specifically.

You can still reckon that DA2 is bad from the games flaws. I would understand that. I can understand that.

DA2 IS indeed a "low point" for Bioware; but my point is that that doesnt necessarily make it bad because Bioware have such a good record; normally delivering AAA titles and with DA2 delivered a B+.
And if it hadnt come from a company with such a sterling record then a B+ woulda been great; a lot of the dislike comes from the fact that Bioware DOES have a much better record than DA2 would seem to indicate.

Once I accepted that I found I was able to enjoy DA2 on its own merits as apposed to what I expected based on Biowares back catalogue.

And I really genuinely feel that a lot (not all) of the criticism of DA2 and Bioware about DA2 really comes more from the expectation that arose from Bioware's back catalogue more than the games actual flaws. Not that all criticism of the game is bad, or that everyone who disliked the game dislike it exclusively from expectation.

That isnt what I said. Again I am sorry if thats how I came off.

Modifié par FitScotGaymer, 22 octobre 2011 - 10:08 .

[eroeru]

Yeah, you make a good point. And sorry for the big backlash, I just meant to clear up some points I couldn't earlier.

[Reaverwind]

AlexXIV wrote...

Reaverwind wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

Thing is I had problems with DA:O already, because Bioware has always been streamlining and not offering as many freedoms for players as other games. But so far it has always been ... acceptable. Just it looks like they are pushing towards giving players less and less option to actually interact with the story, as in letting players write a part of it too.

I think, rather than projection, the problem some people have with DA2 is the same as they had with all their games. Even though I enjoyed all of them, I always saw the difference between their games and Obsidian/Bethesda. Being that other developers allow the player to tell their own story, as in opposite to Bioware who is telling the story and at best give the player an illusion of choice.

As I said it was always so with Bioware. But some people maybe hoped they would start to give more freedoms to players some time, but realized they go more and more the other direction. Which culminated in DA2 where you basically feel like nothing you do changes anything. Even though it may not always be true, it is the general vibe of the game. And then we can stop making roleplaying games tbh, because that's what rpgs are about. Other than that we can just watch a movie or play a shooter or other action games who also have a story in which the player does also not have much influence other than maybe tactics to kill enemies.

Bioware has long been criticised as 'masters of the illusion of choice', so it should surprise no one that their increasing focus on a restricted cinematic approach is not going to be well-received by those who want to evolve their own stories within the game's framework - which is the main reason I play RPG's. If I wanted a more structured approach - I'd play Halo, which does a much better job letting you actually experience the story than any of Bioware's games - which brings me to another criticism: Bioware's bad habit of telling, not showing. Imo, Bioware went from bad to worse with DA2.

Exactly. It's not so much that they suddenly do everything wrong, just that they continue on a bad way. Of course it is a matter of opinion. But DA:O was very well done, so this obvious flaw was accepted by many. But then if things don't work out as well, like in DA2, then people don't forgive streamlining either.

I'd say DA:O managed to do enough right, rather than say it was very well done. Having the game focus on an epic hero's journey helps - there's a reason why this stuff sells, even if some consider it done to death. While Bioware fixed some of the problems I had with DA:O in DA2, what I considered to be more serious issues worsened - mainly gameplay-story segregation, dialogue, encounter-design, and so on.

Modifié par Reaverwind, 23 octobre 2011 - 12:53 .

[Addai]

Reaverwind wrote...

Bioware has long been criticised as 'masters of the illusion of choice', so it should surprise no one that their increasing focus on a restricted cinematic approach is not going to be well-received by those who want to evolve their own stories within the game's framework - which is the main reason I play RPG's. If I wanted a more structured approach - I'd play Halo, which does a much better job letting you actually experience the story than any of Bioware's games - which brings me to another criticism: Bioware's bad habit of telling, not showing. Imo, Bioware went from bad to worse with DA2.

+1

[Joy Divison]

FitScotGaymer wrote...

You can still reckon that DA2 is bad from the games flaws. I would understand that. I can understand that.

DA2 IS indeed a "low point" for Bioware; but my point is that that doesnt necessarily make it bad because Bioware have such a good record; normally delivering AAA titles and with DA2 delivered a B+.
And if it hadnt come from a company with such a sterling record then a B+ woulda been great; a lot of the dislike comes from the fact that Bioware DOES have a much better record than DA2 would seem to indicate.

Once I accepted that I found I was able to enjoy DA2 on its own merits as apposed to what I expected based on Biowares back catalogue.

And I really genuinely feel that a lot (not all) of the criticism of DA2 and Bioware about DA2 really comes more from the expectation that arose from Bioware's back catalogue more than the games actual flaws. Not that all criticism of the game is bad, or that everyone who disliked the game dislike it exclusively from expectation.

That isnt what I said. Again I am sorry if thats how I came off.

I would agree that the LEVEL of criticism DA:2 received has a lot to do with fan expectations and Bioware's history. 

But:

1 - Bioware needs to realize if it is going to call a game "Dragon Age 2" then it should be aware fans are going to expect the things they liked in "Dragon Age"
2 - Would the design team feel much better about themselves if the the folks who gave DA:2 scores of "0" instead judged it on its own merits and gave them a mediocre score of "5"?  I doubt it.
3 - If we spent out $60 because of our previous experience with the franchise, then that, rightly I think, will factor into our enjoyment of the game.  Nobody likes to feel cheated.

Also B+ is a very strong grade.  DA:2 has more than enough flaws that even on its own merits, I do not think it measures up to that standard.

Modifié par Joy Divison, 23 octobre 2011 - 05:19 .

[TheRealJayDee]

FitScotGaymer wrote...

My point was more the fact that the haters will rant on and on and on about DA2s flaws and talk about DAO as if it is this perfect flawless game (when we all know it isnt) as if these flaws in DA2 were the worst thing in the world ever.

As you say, we all know DA:O was not a perfect game, and I don't remember seeing much anyone saying it was. It was game with a lot of flaws, but it it also did a lot of things right, so much that most people accepted the flaws and lived with. Now if there is a sequel getting made the logical expectation would be that it builds on the strengths of it's predecessor and gets rid of it's flaws. This was not what was done with DA2.  Alex sums it up really well:

AlexXIV wrote...

So to make a long story short they had the chance to improve it with relatively little means, but chose to invest and change alot and ended up worse. That's what for people like me is hard to understand. There was no need to take risks.

We don't think DA:O was a perfect game. We just think it was better, maybe much better than DA2. Quite a lot people are unhappy with the new direction the franchise has obviously taken with DA2, many people have problems with specific parts of the game (dialogue wheel, art style etc), everybody dislikes the effects of the game being rushed. 

The flaws DA:O has have always been overshadowed by it's qualities. Obviously it didn't work that way with DA2 for many gamers.

[A Crusty Knight Of Colour]

Reaverwind wrote...

Bioware has long been criticised as 'masters of the illusion of choice', so it should surprise no one that their increasing focus on a restricted cinematic approach is not going to be well-received by those who want to evolve their own stories within the game's framework - which is the main reason I play RPG's. If I wanted a more structured approach - I'd play Halo, which does a much better job letting you actually experience the story than any of Bioware's games - which brings me to another criticism: Bioware's bad habit of telling, not showing. Imo, Bioware went from bad to worse with DA2.

Quoted because I agree.

Essentially, I play RPGs for two main reasons - to be able to tell my own stories with interesting characters in the context of the game's own narrative and to see how statistical character building results in a different gameplay experience.

Give me both in a way that recognises that the two support each other (try to have no gameplay/story segregation, implement elements of the story into gameplay, etc) and I'm a very happy camper.

[IcyWolf803]

I'm a newbie and I say DA II is better than Origins. Yep.

[Pious_Augustus]

JohnEpler wrote...

If you're going to create an alt, please, at least -try- and avoid making it incredibly obvious. It's no fun.

Do IP Proxy's still work?

Here is the problem the game's number shows it hasn't sold better then Orgins and Bioware keeps talking about this new, "audience"....I mean where is this new audience? If you want to compare data look at the sales for DA1 and DA2. You prefer the audience for DA2 oh and let's take away all the preorders because they thought the game would like the first well let's keep them to be fair.

Either way why would you want to support a minority of people who bought the game compared to last? It's like you want to go after the big picture but you kind of left it behind.

I love Bioware have for years and I have told my friends and family about you guys. Dragon Age 2 made me uncomfortable in so many ways. It's like they took away the choice in race. They put sexuality out there big time to where its something you actually have to choose in stead of making it happen yourself.  The staff's reaction was horrible to the fan reaction and you guys have to remember we are just not fans but we are consumers.

We are the people who buy your products the same people who you depend on to have your jobs. I know you guys have been trying to deal with this and I know it has been hard but I see you guys have been trying honestly so have I.

But the people know the game is bad, you guys need to figure that out and we want to support you.

[A Crusty Knight Of Colour]

edit: Bah not in the mood to argue.

Suffice it to say, I lol'd.

Modifié par mrcrusty, 26 octobre 2011 - 03:35 .

[IcyWolf803]

IcyWolf803 wrote...

I'm a newbie and I say DA II is better than Origins. Yep.

This guy it right. DA II beats Origins hands down.

THE END.:happy:

[seraphymon]

IcyWolf803 wrote...

IcyWolf803 wrote...

I'm a newbie and I say DA II is better than Origins. Yep.

This guy it right. DA II beats Origins hands down.

THE END.:happy:

Nice try Versago but creating a third avatar doesnt change your actions which make you easily recognizable.

Modifié par seraphymon, 26 octobre 2011 - 06:19 .

[Melca36]

IcyWolf803 wrote...

IcyWolf803 wrote...

I'm a newbie and I say DA II is better than Origins. Yep.

This guy it right. DA II beats Origins hands down.

THE END.:happy:

You have no credibility. You just registered today.  Although I do predict you will be the one of the first to whone and moan when DA:3 comes out and contains more elements from Origins.

[ThunderWolf803]

Melca36 wrote...

IcyWolf803 wrote...

IcyWolf803 wrote...

I'm a newbie and I say DA II is better than Origins. Yep.

This guy it right. DA II beats Origins hands down.

THE END.:happy:

You have no credibility. You just registered today.  Although I do predict you will be the one of the first to whone and moan when DA:3 comes out and contains more elements from Origins.

Why would BioWare use stuff from Origins when they have the superior DA II?:happy:

Modifié par ThunderWolf803, 26 octobre 2011 - 07:45 .

[ThunderWolf803]

seraphymon wrote...

IcyWolf803 wrote...

IcyWolf803 wrote...

I'm a newbie and I say DA II is better than Origins. Yep.

This guy it right. DA II beats Origins hands down.

THE END.:happy:

Nice try Versago but creating a third avatar doesnt change your actions which make you easily recognizable.

I seriously doubt they are the same person. I mean, both of them ARE really awesome but stil.... nice try though.:happy:

Modifié par ThunderWolf803, 26 octobre 2011 - 07:48 .

[AlexXIV]

ThunderWolf803 wrote...

seraphymon wrote...

IcyWolf803 wrote...

IcyWolf803 wrote...

I'm a newbie and I say DA II is better than Origins. Yep.

This guy it right. DA II beats Origins hands down.

THE END.:happy:

Nice try Versago but creating a third avatar doesnt change your actions which make you easily recognizable.

I seriously doubt they are the same person. I mean, both of them ARE really awesome but stil.... nice try though.:happy:

*gasps and points* Troll! Any Mod around anywhere? I found a troll!!

Anyway ... reported.

[Stanley Woo]

I'm always around during the day. Please report forum issues directly to a Moderator.

[Costello_Anasazi]

I found DA:2 to be the massive disappointment that seems to be the general view of the game. DA:O was amazing and I want to carry on the adventures of my warden. Not the ineffective member of the Hawke family who was just a bystander in the events of DA:2.

I hope that BW can admit they made a mistake and take us into DA:3 back with our warden characters and continue the epic tale started there where DA:2 can then be seen as something a little different in the series and not the train wreck it will become if they continue along the path that it has started.

[Travie]

I agree with much that was said in this thread.

Really, really wish that Hawke would die from a toenail infection (or some other unherolike injury) in the opening scene of DA3.

[TanyaT]

Rixxencaxx wrote...

Maybe, one day people at Bioware will decide to grow up and clearly admit that dragon age 2 was a total fail.

total fail? Judging by this forum it's not.

ok there are issues that we all like or dislike, what we want back etc, but not many games get us playing them all the way through (including the previous game) just to see how it would turn out if ....


This isn't the best Bioware could have done, but it has a good story, interesting characters, twisty emotions, moral dilemmas etc; at least it's not KOTOR2 which had so much promise and went phut

[AlexXIV]

TanyaT wrote...

Rixxencaxx wrote...

Maybe, one day people at Bioware will decide to grow up and clearly admit that dragon age 2 was a total fail.

total fail? Judging by this forum it's not.

ok there are issues that we all like or dislike, what we want back etc, but not many games get us playing them all the way through (including the previous game) just to see how it would turn out if ....


This isn't the best Bioware could have done, but it has a good story, interesting characters, twisty emotions, moral dilemmas etc; at least it's not KOTOR2 which had so much promise and went phut

KotOR 2 was not a bad game. Actually for 2/3 of it, it was even better than it's award winning prequel. Only the ending was rushed and cut content mostly. Much like DA2 actually. So I can't really understand how someone can bash KotOR2 and love DA2. Because same crap happened.

[eroeru]

I am feeling :widow-orphan;