Aller au contenu

Photo

Cerberus's new army- Prothean chamber on Mars key to Cerberus success (Theory)


  • Veuillez vous connecter pour répondre
84 réponses à ce sujet

#1
Bad King

Bad King
  • Members
  • 3 133 messages
Cerberus and the Mars prothean ruin

One of the main questions regarding Cerberus in ME3 is where did they get such a large military force from (especially after the damage done to them during Retribution)? And why are they now working with the reapers after their opposition to the reapers in ME2?

"Cerberus, once comprised of small, covert cells of agents, is now a burgeoning and unconcealed threat to the galaxy. In the face of the immediate Reaper threat, Alliance Intelligence has scuttled their attempts to infiltrate Cerberus to find out how the Illusive Man managed to quickly swell his organization’s ranks." -- N7 Ops (from the official website) description of a Cerberus Centurion.

The part that I bolded implies that Cerberus's sudden growth occurred prior to the reaper arrival on earth which means that it's unlikely that the reapers directly had a hand in the growth of the organisation. Not only is this force strong in numbers but it is also technologically advanced:

""Strong as a semi, and just as maneuverable" is how Cerberus soldiers describe the Atlas Infantry Fighting Exoskeleton. Cerberus' research armsought to combine the deadly armor and firepower of a YMIR mech with
the tactical superiority of a trained human pilot, and in this respect they succeeded admirably...

...The shield is made from a polycrystalline material proprietary to Cerberus – Alliance engineers can only hypothesize that it is some kind of synthetic sapphire composite with interlayers to avoid cracking and thermal damage. Whatever it is, it's been the end of many opponents who thought they could put a bullet through it, only to find that they’ve leaned out of cover and angered the pilot of a very deadly war machine. " -- N7 Ops description of the Cerberus Atlas mech.

We know that Cerberus are a technologically advanced faction, but this still seems like a step up for them. Now, if you follow Cerberus Daily News, you may have read this article:

01/10/2011 - Scientists on Mars Assess New Chamber in Prothean Ruins
“Controversy brews tonight as scientists on Mars assess the contents of a newly opened chamber in the Prothean ruins. The opening has been a dream of exoarchaeologists for decades, delayed by the many steps necessary to replicate Prothean code keys and crack the cryptography for entry. Critics say the Milky Way Foundation,which provided supercomputers for the cryptanalysis, could hoard any Prothean discoveries. Dr. Unira T'Lam, liaison from the Citadel Committee on Paleotechnology, says she's been kept in the dark. "Foundation personnel have orchestrated a security system that keeps out everyone except a select cabal," she accuses. "Anything could be taken from inside and we'd never know." Dr. Ilsa Warren, who heads the analysis unit, dismisses the allegation. "We've made it clear all technology stays in situ throughout the cataloging and analysis process,which could take years," she says. "Dr. T'Lam's fears would be more appropriate closer to the end of the decade."” -- CDN

And, as pointed out by poster get fired up (see social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/325/index/8006985), the Milky Way Foundation is a Cerberus front company:

"2168 - Assassination of 22 salarian crime syndicate members on Trident leads to takeover of narcotics trade. Reprisals bloody but tolerable. Milky Way Foundation created to funnel money. New Dawn Pharmaceuticals purchased to begin project TRAPDOOR." -- Shadow Broker dossier on Cerberus

Also Dr. Ilsa Warren could be Dr. Warren, head of the team unearthing the prothean beacon on Eden Prime: masseffect.wikia.com/wiki/Dr._Warren

We know that the Mars prothean ruins were concerned with researching humanity. What if Cerberus found something in those ruins (complex prothean technologies and records of their research for example) relating to the protheans' study of humanity which would help them build a powerful army of humans and which would cause them to change their stance/plans regarding the reapers? What revelations and technology could they have found?

Are Cerberus Indoctrinated?

I personally don't think that the Cerberus troops have been indoctrinated by the reapers. Indoctrination causes mental degradation over time and this would hamper the ability of the troops in the long run- something TIM wouldn't want. However, there may be something similar to indoctrination going on: Drew Karpyshyn in this interview has some interesting things to say:

www.newsarama.com/games/drew-karpyshyn-mass-effect-star-wars-110908.html

Nrama: Now indoctrination, that's something that we touch upon a bit in the games, it's a major plot point of Mass Effect 3; why was that something that needed to be expanded upon outside the games?

Karpyshyn: Well I think one of the things you want to understand about indoctrination and that I tried to get across in the third book, Retribution, in particular is that it's more than just mind control, it's something beyond that. In some ways it's sort of an evolution into a new existence. It brings with it certain benefits!

Image IPB


Nrama: So is it more of an assimilation?

Karpyshyn: Sort of an assimilation, sort of an ascension, sort of an evolution of the organic and synthetic hybrid. But obviously with a dark undertone. The thing we wanted to get across is that it's not just a thing that's done to you, it's something that happens to you. It progresses and grows, and there are benefits to it. You know, Grayson became extremely physically strong, powerful in biotics. With the Illusive Man, this is something he has been studying because he sees the potential of getting the benefits without the drawbacks. Again, I'm not trying to spoil anything... things are never exactly what they first appear. [Mass Effect 3] is more than just "Oh, Cerberus was indoctrinated the whole time." It's a complex story that you can see the roots of in the novels.

Recent Edit (25/10/11): Some related notes

1). Another idea: what if the protheans' Mars bases were part of their long term plan of defeating the reapers?
Sure, they already tampered with the reapers' control over the citadel relay, but what if there was another prothean team working on their own plan? Remember LotSB's revelation?:

Shepard: Why was he [the former Shadow Broker] still looking at Protheans? They gave us the
warning and the Conduit at Ilos, but we've used those.

Liara: The Shadow Broker seemed to think that there was more out there. Perhaps the Protheans had other plans.

Based on the fact that the protheans were studying humanity (see Eletania's orb) using their Mars bases, perhaps the protheans had hatched a new plan to defeat the reapers- a plan which would use humanity as its main weapon. This would explain why they were studying cro-magnons (the oldest cro-magnon fossils are significantly younger than 50,000 years old- therefore the protheans' study of them may well have been undertaken by scientists who stayed hidden who waited for the reapers to leave before commencing the study). They were finding a way to use humans as an effective future weapon against the reapers- they may for example have been building advanced technology that was built based on what they learned about human genetics and physiology- perhaps technology that would allow the mass cloning of these humans?

Perhaps Cerberus's investigation into these newly discovered Mars ruins led to the discovery of this plan
regarding humanity (whatever it may be) and this plan was significant enough to cause TIM and Cerberus to completely change their plans.

2). To further support the idea that Cerberus have important assets on Mars is the fact that in the squad leader trailer ( www.youtube.com/watch ), Shepard appears to be fighting Cerberus at a settlement (possibly Lowell City) that may well be on Mars. Are Cerberus trying to protect their remaining assets (most of the prothean tech would presumably have been moved to other Cerberus bases) by fighting Shepard? Is Shepard attempting to find the prothean chambers on Mars, and as a result coming into conflict with Cerberus who are stubbornly defending their technology?

Modifié par Bad King, 13 novembre 2011 - 12:11 .


#2
Dave of Canada

Dave of Canada
  • Members
  • 17 484 messages
Cerberus is around 150 individuals in Mass Effect 2 with a lot of private funding and some contacts in the Alliance, however they're mostly destroyed after the effects of Retribution and they've lost a lot of potential strength in the future.

For Cerberus to have the army shown in Mass Effect 3 within a few months suggests something else is occuring, possibly indoctrinated men and women being forced to play soldiers or something. This could make some sense considering at the end of Retribution, The Illusive Man and Cerberus have some information on indoctrination gained from studying the Collector Base.

What doesn't make sense is how they've managed to keep operations running, creating their own equipment and funding new research projects like the Atlas. The Alliance being kept in the dark about the Atlas is a little weird too, considering the relationship the Alliance and Cerberus has with each other.

Unless all the weapons, tech and Atlas mechs were made by Cerberus to hand out once the invasion started (they've known about Reapers for decades now and have been preparing since), which could somewhat make sense but would still be odd because the Atlas would've benefit the Alliance military greatly.

#3
Arkitekt

Arkitekt
  • Members
  • 2 360 messages
Nice research there. The number of cerberus troopers I could cope with Cerberus using indoctrination on Alliance troopers (milking the human fleets), and we can even imagine some of this indoctrination going deep inside Alliance and their fleet (cerberus apparently has carriers as well). But using atlas mechs (something apparently novel) means they have gotten themselves an industrial complex of their own.

So we might visit this mars dig site to get "mysterious findings" by this cerberus front foundation, only to find a huge industrial machinery filled with atlas... eh. Anyways, it all seems aligned for the Protheans being a source of help again this time around.

#4
Anacronian Stryx

Anacronian Stryx
  • Members
  • 3 129 messages
Cerberus got money and equipment.. hire a ****load of mercenaries and outfit them, There you got something resembling a small army.

#5
Fifth Fleet Out

Fifth Fleet Out
  • Members
  • 56 messages
the lost many cells in retribution

#6
The Interloper

The Interloper
  • Members
  • 807 messages
Yeah, it's pretty obvious that Cerberus' new army isn't natural.

#7
Bad King

Bad King
  • Members
  • 3 133 messages

The Interloper wrote...

Yeah, it's pretty obvious that Cerberus' new army isn't natural.


No doubt. The real question is where did this army come from? I'm banking on it having something to do with the Mars ruins.

Modifié par Bad King, 30 septembre 2011 - 04:19 .


#8
Dave of Canada

Dave of Canada
  • Members
  • 17 484 messages
Actually, my hypothetical of Cerberus building weaponry before the invasion doesn't make much sense either. Technology could change within a few decades making equipment almost useless.

It's also a bit odd they'd devote part of an entire novel showing how weak Cerberus has gotten only to buff them up ingame.

Anacronian Stryx wrote...

Cerberus got money and equipment.


Not after Retribution, no. Anderson made sure of that.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 30 septembre 2011 - 04:20 .


#9
Thompson family

Thompson family
  • Members
  • 2 748 messages

Arkitekt wrote...

Nice research there.


Yes, very nice indeed.

#10
Anacronian Stryx

Anacronian Stryx
  • Members
  • 3 129 messages

Dave of Canada wrote...

Anacronian Stryx wrote...

Cerberus got money and equipment.


Not after Retribution, no. Anderson made sure of that.

It's odd they'd devote part of an entire novel showing how weak Cerberus has gotten only to buff them up ingame.


Somehow i doubt Cerberus will be filing for bankruptcy or even be forced to pawn the minuteman base.

#11
Dave of Canada

Dave of Canada
  • Members
  • 17 484 messages

Anacronian Stryx wrote...

Somehow i doubt Cerberus will be filing for bankruptcy or even be forced to pawn the minuteman base.


They didn't even have enough resources to take over one of their bases from a small turian group. 

#12
Bad King

Bad King
  • Members
  • 3 133 messages

Dave of Canada wrote...

Actually, my hypothetical of Cerberus building weaponry before the invasion doesn't make much sense either. Technology could change within a few decades making equipment almost useless.

It's odd they'd devote part of an entire novel showing how weak Cerberus has gotten only to buff them up ingame.

Anacronian Stryx wrote...

Cerberus got money and equipment.


Not after Retribution, no. Anderson made sure of that.


Yeah, as the Interloper said, it's highly unlikely that this army is natural. BioWare will need some sort of plot device to explain how they got this army (and I doubt that it resulted from hiring a rag-tag bunch of mercs!).

"Fearless, disciplined and unrelenting, Cerberus Assault Troopers are the
backbone of the Illusive Man's army. Outfitted with custom-designed
armor and rifles, these well-equipped soldiers function with determined
precision. The first to rush in to a fight, the assault troopers are
often supported by more powerful units on the battlefield. As the galaxy
crumbles, their loyalty to Cerberus only grows more absolute." -- N7 Ops on Cerberus troopers

Doesn't sound like mercs to me.

Modifié par Bad King, 30 septembre 2011 - 04:28 .


#13
Thompson family

Thompson family
  • Members
  • 2 748 messages

Bad King wrote...

... as the Interloper said, it's highly unlikely that this army is natural. BioWare will need some sort of plot device to explain how they got this army (and I doubt that it resulted from hiring a rag-tag bunch of mercs!).


And an explanation of why Cerberus not only doesn't need Shep anymore, but why they view his/her coalition building as a threat.

#14
Dave of Canada

Dave of Canada
  • Members
  • 17 484 messages
There goes my very brief indoctrination theory.

From N7 OPS:

Cerberus Trooper:
Fearless, disciplined and unrelenting, Cerberus Assault Troopers are the backbone of the Illusive Man's army. Outfitted with custom-designed armor and rifles, these well-equipped soldiers function with determined precision. The first to rush in to a fight, the assault troopers are often supported by more powerful units on the battlefield. As the galaxy crumbles, their loyalty to Cerberus only grows more absolute.


Why would their loyalty grow if they're indoctrinated? Loyalty wouldn't have anything to do with their service.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 30 septembre 2011 - 04:27 .


#15
Arkitekt

Arkitekt
  • Members
  • 2 360 messages
Perhaps the reapers took over the cerberus facilities before reaching earth, build an army around its tech and indoctrinated personnel, and TIM's on the loose, marginalized by almost everyone except Kai Leng.

#16
Dave of Canada

Dave of Canada
  • Members
  • 17 484 messages

Arkitekt wrote...

Perhaps the reapers took over the cerberus facilities before reaching earth, build an army around its tech and indoctrinated personnel, and TIM's on the loose, marginalized by almost everyone except Kai Leng.


They'd have no way of taking over all Cerberus facilities, they're spread out and don't have any knowledge of each other. Taking out one cell wouldn't harm the others and the leadership would never be targetted because The Illusive Man is never with near them and nobody knows where he is except the staff on his ship (which is constantly on the move).

#17
Bad King

Bad King
  • Members
  • 3 133 messages

Arkitekt wrote...

Perhaps the reapers took over the cerberus facilities before reaching earth, build an army around its tech and indoctrinated personnel, and TIM's on the loose, marginalized by almost everyone except Kai Leng.


Seems unlikely. Cerberus facilities are spread across the galaxy, it would take years for the reapers to find them all. Also the army appears to have been constructed prior to the reapers' arrival at earth:

" In the face of the immediate Reaper threat, Alliance Intelligence has scuttled their attempts to infiltrate Cerberus to find out how the Illusive Man managed to quickly swell his organization’s ranks." -- N7 Ops

In other words the reaper arrival has caused the Alliance to give up their investigation into Cerberus's sudden growth- this strongly implies that Cerberus's growth started prior to the reaper arrival.

Modifié par Bad King, 30 septembre 2011 - 04:33 .


#18
Rovay

Rovay
  • Members
  • 833 messages

Dave of Canada wrote...

There goes my very brief indoctrination theory.

From N7 OPS:

Cerberus Trooper:
Fearless, disciplined and unrelenting, Cerberus Assault Troopers are the backbone of the Illusive Man's army. Outfitted with custom-designed armor and rifles, these well-equipped soldiers function with determined precision. The first to rush in to a fight, the assault troopers are often supported by more powerful units on the battlefield. As the galaxy crumbles, their loyalty to Cerberus only grows more absolute.


Why would their loyalty grow if they're indoctrinated? Loyalty wouldn't have anything to do with their service.


Maybe it's one of these misleading misinterpretations of word 'indoctrination'?

Modifié par Rovay, 30 septembre 2011 - 04:33 .


#19
Kaiser Shepard

Kaiser Shepard
  • Members
  • 7 890 messages
Shepard clones + Okeer's memory imprinting tech to make them combat ready + Indoctrination to make sure they don't have free will

#20
1136342t54_

1136342t54_
  • Members
  • 3 197 messages

Dave of Canada wrote...

Cerberus is around 150 individuals in Mass Effect 2 with a lot of private funding and some contacts in the Alliance, however they're mostly destroyed after the effects of Retribution and they've lost a lot of potential strength in the future.

For Cerberus to have the army shown in Mass Effect 3 within a few months suggests something else is occuring, possibly indoctrinated men and women being forced to play soldiers or something. This could make some sense considering at the end of Retribution, The Illusive Man and Cerberus have some information on indoctrination gained from studying the Collector Base.

What doesn't make sense is how they've managed to keep operations running, creating their own equipment and funding new research projects like the Atlas. The Alliance being kept in the dark about the Atlas is a little weird too, considering the relationship the Alliance and Cerberus has with each other.

Unless all the weapons, tech and Atlas mechs were made by Cerberus to hand out once the invasion started (they've known about Reapers for decades now and have been preparing since), which could somewhat make sense but would still be odd because the Atlas would've benefit the Alliance military greatly.


Mass Effect has existing an effective cloning technology. Its possible Cerberus stole Okeer's cloning data and adapted for humans (with a little Reaper help of course). Creating a large arsenal of weapons, vehicles and equipment is fully within in there capabilities and its probable that they were going to give a lot of it to the Alliance before they were taken over by the Reapers.

#21
Arkitekt

Arkitekt
  • Members
  • 2 360 messages

Bad King wrote...

Arkitekt wrote...

Perhaps the reapers took over the cerberus facilities before reaching earth, build an army around its tech and indoctrinated personnel, and TIM's on the loose, marginalized by almost everyone except Kai Leng.


Seems unlikely. Cerberus facilities are spread across the galaxy, it would take years for the reapers to find them all. Also the army appears to have been constructed prior to the reapers' arrival at earth:

" In the face of the immediate Reaper threat, Alliance Intelligence has scuttled their attempts to infiltrate Cerberus to find out how the Illusive Man managed to quickly swell his organization’s ranks." -- N7 Ops

In other words the reaper arrival has caused the Alliance to give up their investigation into Cerberus's sudden growth- this strongly implies that Cerberus's growth started prior to the reaper arrival.


I didn't read Retribution, and the wiki is kinda confusing in it, telling us how the reapers "attacked" this facility and that facility, only to apparently fall back (and let the turians get the facilities, etc.). Perhaps it's the grammar that is eluding me, but I got the impression that cerberus facilities were under attack by the reapers in Retribution. Didn't make much sense, so I'm most probably wrong.

Indoctrinating people to build up an army seems the only plausible explanation with the info we have right now. But how that ties into Retribution?

#22
Arkitekt

Arkitekt
  • Members
  • 2 360 messages

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

Shepard clones + Okeer's memory imprinting tech to make them combat ready + Indoctrination to make sure they don't have free will


This would be frightening, actually.

Imagine one of them taking out the helmet, and it's you!

(in fact the fact they have such opaque helmets when no organic had them previously in ME games, is a clear indication that the soldiers' nature and appearance are one of the mysteries to unravel).

Modifié par Arkitekt, 30 septembre 2011 - 04:41 .


#23
Bad King

Bad King
  • Members
  • 3 133 messages
The problem with the indoctrination idea is that it causes mental degradation over time which would ruin the quality of the Cerberus troops. So it's unlikely that TIM would allow his men to be indoctrinated by the reapers.

Check this interview with Drew Karpyshyn:

http://www.newsarama...ars-110908.html

He implies that TIM wants to discover the benefits of indoctrination without any of the drawbacks.

Modifié par Bad King, 30 septembre 2011 - 04:43 .


#24
Bad King

Bad King
  • Members
  • 3 133 messages

Arkitekt wrote...

Bad King wrote...

Arkitekt wrote...

Perhaps the reapers took over the cerberus facilities before reaching earth, build an army around its tech and indoctrinated personnel, and TIM's on the loose, marginalized by almost everyone except Kai Leng.


Seems unlikely. Cerberus facilities are spread across the galaxy, it would take years for the reapers to find them all. Also the army appears to have been constructed prior to the reapers' arrival at earth:

" In the face of the immediate Reaper threat, Alliance Intelligence has scuttled their attempts to infiltrate Cerberus to find out how the Illusive Man managed to quickly swell his organization’s ranks." -- N7 Ops

In other words the reaper arrival has caused the Alliance to give up their investigation into Cerberus's sudden growth- this strongly implies that Cerberus's growth started prior to the reaper arrival.


I didn't read Retribution, and the wiki is kinda confusing in it, telling us how the reapers "attacked" this facility and that facility, only to apparently fall back (and let the turians get the facilities, etc.). Perhaps it's the grammar that is eluding me, but I got the impression that cerberus facilities were under attack by the reapers in Retribution. Didn't make much sense, so I'm most probably wrong.

Indoctrinating people to build up an army seems the only plausible explanation with the info we have right now. But how that ties into Retribution?


It was turians not reapers. The reapers still hadn't arrived at the time of Retribution.

#25
Rovay

Rovay
  • Members
  • 833 messages

Arkitekt wrote...

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

Shepard clones + Okeer's memory imprinting tech to make them combat ready + Indoctrination to make sure they don't have free will


This would be frightening, actually.

Imagine one of them taking out the helmet, and it's you!


This theory is kinda nulled, because there will be Cerberus enemies of both genders to fight.

Unless they have reverse-gendered some clones...

Modifié par Rovay, 30 septembre 2011 - 04:44 .