84 réponses à ce sujet

[Dave of Canada]

Arkitekt wrote...

I didn't read Retribution, and the wiki is kinda confusing in it, telling us how the reapers "attacked" this facility and that facility, only to apparently fall back (and let the turians get the facilities, etc.). Perhaps it's the grammar that is eluding me, but I got the impression that cerberus facilities were under attack by the reapers in Retribution. Didn't make much sense, so I'm most probably wrong.

Indoctrinating people to build up an army seems the only plausible explanation with the info we have right now. But how that ties into Retribution?

Cerberus, having recieved parts of the Collector Base (either by salvaging it's remains or shipping parts from it), started studying the effects of indoctrination on an individual. Rather than studying it on somebody random, they captured one of their ex-operatives which was blackmailing them.

After surgically implanting Reaper technology on Grayson (the ex-operative), he resists it's effects and the Illusive Man has them drug him so it occurs quicker. Meanwhile, somewhere else, the information that was being used to blackmail Cerberus has reached Anderson who doesn't trust the Alliance (as their hidden operatives would warn Cerberus) and begins collaberating with Turians.

The Illusive Man and Cerberus notice Grayson physically changing, transforming into something else and they're taking notes about it through the entire experiment. Unfortunately, before it could go any further, Turians appear and invade the facility and kill all Cerberus staff and unleash the now-indoctrinated Grayson upon the universe who has grown extremely powerful due to his mutations.

Cerberus crumbles as the Turians take out almost every one of their facilities all at once and arrest their Alliance allies, ect ect. Grayson begins growing stronger and manipulates people and studies humanity / biotics / Omega for the Reapers.

At the end of the novel, Cerberus pays Aria (who reclaimed the station after being payed by TIM) for the knowledge on indoctrination because he could make use of it, Aria agrees but keeps a copy.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 30 septembre 2011 - 04:50 .

[Arkitekt]

OOOOoooh. So she will have indoctrinated chaps as well? Interesting!

[CroGamer002]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Cerberus is around 150 individuals in Mass Effect 2 with a lot of private funding and some contacts in the Alliance,

I counted bodies in Overlord.

Exactly 50 + Kevin Archer.
Also Shepard said there's around 100 Cerbeus personal on Derelict Reaper.

Also don't get me started on Lazarus Cell and Normandy SR-2 personal.

This 150 individuals are operatives like Miranda, Jacob, Kevin Archer and Kai Leng.

[1136342t54_]

Mesina2 wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

Cerberus is around 150 individuals in Mass Effect 2 with a lot of private funding and some contacts in the Alliance,

I counted bodies in Overlord.

Exactly 50 + Kevin Archer.
Also Shepard said there's around 100 Cerbeus personal on Derelict Reaper.

Also don't get me started on Lazarus Cell and Normandy SR-2 personal.

This 150 individuals are operatives like Miranda, Jacob, Kevin Archer and Kai Leng.

Its more believable to say there are 150 military personnel (not counting security guards and mercs).

[Stardusk78]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Arkitekt wrote...

I didn't read Retribution, and the wiki is kinda confusing in it, telling us how the reapers "attacked" this facility and that facility, only to apparently fall back (and let the turians get the facilities, etc.). Perhaps it's the grammar that is eluding me, but I got the impression that cerberus facilities were under attack by the reapers in Retribution. Didn't make much sense, so I'm most probably wrong.

Indoctrinating people to build up an army seems the only plausible explanation with the info we have right now. But how that ties into Retribution?

Cerberus, having recieved parts of the Collector Base (either by salvaging it's remains or shipping parts from it), started studying the effects of indoctrination on an individual. Rather than studying it on somebody random, they captured one of their ex-operatives which was blackmailing them.

After surgically implanting Reaper technology on Grayson (the ex-operative), he resists it's effects and the Illusive Man has them drug him so it occurs quicker. Meanwhile, somewhere else, the information that was being used to blackmail Cerberus has reached Anderson who doesn't trust the Alliance (as their hidden operatives would warn Cerberus) and begins collaberating with Turians.

The Illusive Man and Cerberus notice Grayson physically changing, transforming into something else and they're taking notes about it through the entire experiment. Unfortunately, before it could go any further, Turians appear and invade the facility and kill all Cerberus staff and unleash the now-indoctrinated Grayson upon the universe who has grown extremely powerful due to his mutations.

Cerberus crumbles as the Turians take out almost every one of their facilities all at once and arrest their Alliance allies, ect ect. Grayson begins growing stronger and manipulates people and studies humanity / biotics / Omega for the Reapers.

At the end of the novel, Cerberus pays Aria (who reclaimed the station after being payed by TIM) for the knowledge on indoctrination because he could make use of it, Aria agrees but keeps a copy.

What exactly does Grayson become if you don't mind me asking?

[Dave of Canada]

Mesina2 wrote...

This 150 individuals are operatives like Miranda, Jacob, Kevin Archer and Kai Leng.

Why would Jacob count as an operative if he's only basic security, then? 

[Arkitekt]

@stardusk

Reaper's avatar. If you kill him, we will kill all reapers combined, ala Saren in ME1

(kidding)

Modifié par Arkitekt, 30 septembre 2011 - 04:57 .

[Dave of Canada]

Stardusk78 wrote...

What exactly does Grayson become if you don't mind me asking?

Reaper-Human Hybrid that "barely looked human anymore" (due to the cybernetics sticking out of his skin) who's every sense had been increased drastically (including taste!), Grayson played a backseat role in observing everything the Reapers were doing with his body. He wasn't a biotic though the mutations allowed him to throw extremely powerful biotics left and right.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 30 septembre 2011 - 05:02 .

[Shepard's_Fist]

Just as long as these soldiers don't turn out to be clones of Shepard I'll be fine.

[Robhuzz]

Arkitekt wrote...

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

Shepard clones + Okeer's memory imprinting tech to make them combat ready + Indoctrination to make sure they don't have free will

This would be frightening, actually.

Imagine one of them taking out the helmet, and it's you!

(in fact the fact they have such opaque helmets when no organic had them previously in ME games, is a clear indication that the soldiers' nature and appearance are one of the mysteries to unravel).

If they were Shepard clones then why would Cerberus need a whole army of them to take the real Shepard out? I mean, isn't a clone supposed to be exactly the same as the one it's based on? 3 clones should be enough to stop and overpower a squad of Shepard + 2 random squad members. It would also be insulting if those were Shepard clones, juding from the ease with which they're taken out....

Modifié par Robhuzz, 30 septembre 2011 - 05:06 .

[Arkitekt]

....Well indoctrination and cloning might still have serious drawbacks. Shep-clones could be just not as awesome as Original Shep

[Dave of Canada]

Clones wouldn't work, we heard their voice and it would be kind of easy to see coming if we play FemShep and the soldiers are female.

[Stardusk78]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Stardusk78 wrote...

What exactly does Grayson become if you don't mind me asking?

Reaper-Human Hybrid that "barely looked human anymore" (due to the cybernetics sticking out of his skin) who's every sense had been increased drastically (including taste!), Grayson played a backseat role in observing everything the Reapers were doing with his body. He wasn't a biotic though the mutations allowed him to throw extremely powerful biotics left and right.

Will Grayson be appearing in ME3?

[Dave of Canada]

Stardusk78 wrote...

Will Grayson be appearing in ME3?

Doubt it, Anderson / Kai Leng killed him. His body is being studied by Anderson and his group dedicated to counter the Reapers, though.

Wouldn't surprise me to see other people who've gone under similar changes, though.

[Robhuzz]

Stardusk78 wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

Stardusk78 wrote...

What exactly does Grayson become if you don't mind me asking?

Reaper-Human Hybrid that "barely looked human anymore" (due to the cybernetics sticking out of his skin) who's every sense had been increased drastically (including taste!), Grayson played a backseat role in observing everything the Reapers were doing with his body. He wasn't a biotic though the mutations allowed him to throw extremely powerful biotics left and right.

Will Grayson be appearing in ME3?

Sovereign made Saren's corpse walk and fight so who knows, they might be doing the same with Grayson.

On a serious note: He was killed by Andersson and others so I assume we won't be seeing him in ME3.

ETA:

Modifié par Robhuzz, 30 septembre 2011 - 05:17 .

[Xilizhra]

(in fact the fact they have such opaque helmets when no organic had them previously in ME games, is a clear indication that the soldiers' nature and appearance are one of the mysteries to unravel).

Really? Krogan and turian helmets are pretty opaque, and then there are the skull-like ones used by Eclipse and the Blue Suns.

[Arkitekt]

Xilizhra wrote...

(in fact the fact they have such opaque helmets when no organic had them previously in ME games, is a clear indication that the soldiers' nature and appearance are one of the mysteries to unravel).

Really? Krogan and turian helmets are pretty opaque, and then there are the skull-like ones used by Eclipse and the Blue Suns.

**** don't bother with me, I must be allucinating!

[Kaiser Shepard]

Rovay wrote...

Arkitekt wrote...

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

Shepard clones + Okeer's memory imprinting tech to make them combat ready + Indoctrination to make sure they don't have free will

This would be frightening, actually.

Imagine one of them taking out the helmet, and it's you!

This theory is kinda nulled, because there will be Cerberus enemies of both genders to fight.

Unless they have reverse-gendered some clones...

Not all of them have to be clones. And have we already seen Shepard fighting Cerbies of both genders in the vids so far?

Dave of Canada wrote...

Mesina2 wrote...

This 150 individuals are operatives like Miranda, Jacob, Kevin Archer and Kai Leng.

Why would Jacob count as an operative if he's only basic security, then? 

I always interpreted those 150 operatives as active personel, as opposed to those loyal to Ceberus but not called upon to serve in a cell at the time.

Modifié par Kaiser Shepard, 30 septembre 2011 - 05:29 .

[Xilizhra]

I always interpreted those 150 operatives as active personel, as opposed to those loyal to Ceberus but not called upon to serve in a cell at the time.

He was head of security.

[Pride Demon]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Clones wouldn't work, we heard their voice and it would be kind of easy to see coming if we play FemShep and the soldiers are female.

Indeed. One would see it coming, unless we factor the "opposite gender" clone, but in the end, if they are actually clones, I'd rather think they are clones of Kai Lang...

Bad King wrote...
Also Dr. Ilsa Warren could be Dr. Warren, head of the team unearthing the prothean beacon on Eden Prime

Hmm... I like this theory!
After all, we already know her assistant Manuel worked for Cerberus (he is the Dr. Cayce of project Firewalker...), so why not her too... Would definitely put things into perspective, right?

[Zulu_DFA]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Cerberus is around 150 individuals in Mass Effect 2

Gawd. Hasn't this been debunked three billion and fifty times yet?

1. It's a plot hole.

2. It may be handwaved any moment you (or McWalters) like with "EDI ain't got full info, Cerbs = super-mega-top-secretz!!!"

3. She said "150 operatives". OPERATIVES. O.P.E.R.A.T.I.V.E.S.!.!.!. Are Ken, Gaby and Gardner operatives? Is Kelly? Is Shepard? Is Liara?

Take your pick.



@ OP.

Not sure what you were trying to say, but kudos for the nice summary anyway. You only forgot the Kittens!

Personally I think the "dark undertone" is going to be somewhat like this: TIM's genuinely trying to get an edge for the mankind by actively developing biotics and other (cybernetic) augmentations. However, that's what the Reapers have nothing against, because down the path there is the point of singularity, when "acsension" (reaperification) will look like nothing too special but yet another logical step further. And that's how the Reapers came to be in the first place. So taking a little help from them might be something that appeals to reason.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 30 septembre 2011 - 06:18 .

[Sajuro]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

Cerberus is around 150 individuals in Mass Effect 2

3. She said "150 operatives". OPERATIVES. O.P.E.R.A.T.I.V.E.S.!.!.!. Are Ken, Gaby and Gardner operatives? Is Kelly? Is Shepard? Is Liara?

I don't know if it is debunked, but as you can see I like 3 the best >.> if there are only 150 cerberus operatives, I'm going to name them all after pokemon, and TIM could be Mew (151)
Also I kinda checked this out because I thought you were buried underneath the rubble of an ancient ruin somewhere Zulu, good to see you aren't, or at least that you get a signal there

[RyuujinZERO]

By the way in terms of outfitting the soldiers themselves with gear and the apparently limitless resources of Cerberus beyond mere money, a funny thought did occur to me during my ME2 first play-through.

There's that unstable star during Tali's recruitment mission seemingly being caused by dark energy (remember, mass effect fields and dark energy go hand in hand). The view in the backdrop of the TIM scenes show an oddly dark and unstable looking star.

With mass effect fields it's not unreasonable to "harvest" a star, like the star forge in KotOR; I would not be at all suprised if Cerberus is mining a star for resources ;p

[Bad King]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

@ OP.

Not sure what you were trying to say, but kudos for the nice summary anyway. You only forgot the Kittens!

Personally I think the "dark undertone" is going to be somewhat like this: TIM's genuinely trying to get an edge for the mankind by actively developing biotics and other (cybernetic) augmentations. However, that's what the Reapers have nothing against, because down the path there is the point of singularity, when "acsension" (reaperification) will look like nothing too special but yet another logical step further. And that's how the Reapers came to be in the first place. So taking a little help from them might be something that appeals to reason.

Yeah, my post is overall pretty vague, it's mainly there to stimulate debate. My main points are 1). Cerberus's secret to building such a big army (and their sudden switching of sides) is derrived from whatever technology and information that they discovered on the prothean observation site on Mars (the site would likely include a lot of information on humanity, and perhaps advanced prothean technology caches (which are very rare))- so for example, they discovered technology capable of influencing human minds, or ways of quickly creating new humans through some sort of advanced cloning devices etc. (what they may have found is open to debate, these are just wild guesses ). They may have also found information at the site which triggered their allignment with the reapers- prothean records/plans/ideas convincing enough to persuade them to make such a move.
2). TIM is attempting to study indoctrination and find a way of gaining the benefits of it without suffering any of the negatives, and it's unlikely that they are indoctrinated by the reapers.

As for the kittens, I agree, I should have included a mention of Cerberus's secret weapon:

Dunecat

[Valdrane78]

Rovay wrote...

Arkitekt wrote...

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

Shepard clones + Okeer's memory imprinting tech to make them combat ready + Indoctrination to make sure they don't have free will

This would be frightening, actually.

Imagine one of them taking out the helmet, and it's you!

This theory is kinda nulled, because there will be Cerberus enemies of both genders to fight.

Unless they have reverse-gendered some clones...

To further this line of thinking (even though I do nto totally agree with it)  Shep clones and Miranda clones. 

I personally do nto think it would be all that difficult for Mr. Harper to procure that large of an army, especially with all the resources he has at his disposal.  But clones is a fun hypothesis (even if it is null when you when you consider that there are femsheps out ther)