84 réponses à ce sujet

[Zulu_DFA]

Bad King wrote...

Yeah, my post is overall pretty vague, it's mainly there to stimulate debate. My main points are 1). Cerberus's secret to building such a big army (and their sudden switching of sides) is derrived from whatever technology and information that they discovered on the prothean observation site on Mars (the site would likely include a lot of information on humanity, and perhaps advanced prothean technology caches (which are very rare))- so for example, they discovered technology capable of influencing human minds, or ways of quickly creating new humans through some sort of advanced cloning devices etc. (what they may have found is open to debate, these are just wild guesses ). They may have also found information at the site which triggered their allignment with the reapers- prothean records/plans/ideas convincing enough to persuade them to make such a move.

Yeah, that's what I thought too since that CDN. Something juicy must have been there.

Don't you think the whole Mars site operation had been a Reapers' scheme from the get go, and the Protheans there were [on the way to becoming] Collectors?

Bad King wrote...

2). TIM is attempting to study indoctrination and find a way of gaining the benefits of it without suffering any of the negatives, and it's unlikely that they are indoctrinated by the reapers.

We have yet to see if TIM's alingnment with the Reapers is genuine. I think he has indeed acquired means to withstand the indoctrination, which would allow him to let the Reapers (and Shepard with the rest of the galaxy, for that matter) believe Cerberus are their pawns, while at the same time he is able to doublecross Harbie at will.

[1136342t54_]

Sajuro wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

Cerberus is around 150 individuals in Mass Effect 2

3. She said "150 operatives". OPERATIVES. O.P.E.R.A.T.I.V.E.S.!.!.!. Are Ken, Gaby and Gardner operatives? Is Kelly? Is Shepard? Is Liara?

I don't know if it is debunked, but as you can see I like 3 the best >.> if there are only 150 cerberus operatives, I'm going to name them all after pokemon, and TIM could be Mew (151)
Also I kinda checked this out because I thought you were buried underneath the rubble of an ancient ruin somewhere Zulu, good to see you aren't, or at least that you get a signal there

Like I said before on this subject. Its more likely those are full on Military commandos or similar to Jacob and Miranda. 150 is likely a low end of military operatives Cerberus have. Now the amount of personnel is hard to say considering that the Illusive man in Retribution alluded to spending trillions of credits on the group as a whole.

[Bad King]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Bad King wrote...

Yeah, my post is overall pretty vague, it's mainly there to stimulate debate. My main points are 1). Cerberus's secret to building such a big army (and their sudden switching of sides) is derrived from whatever technology and information that they discovered on the prothean observation site on Mars (the site would likely include a lot of information on humanity, and perhaps advanced prothean technology caches (which are very rare))- so for example, they discovered technology capable of influencing human minds, or ways of quickly creating new humans through some sort of advanced cloning devices etc. (what they may have found is open to debate, these are just wild guesses ). They may have also found information at the site which triggered their allignment with the reapers- prothean records/plans/ideas convincing enough to persuade them to make such a move.

Yeah, that's what I thought too since that CDN. Something juicy must have been there.

Don't you think the whole Mars site operation had been a Reapers' scheme from the get go, and the Protheans there were [on the way to becoming] Collectors?

It's certainly possible if we take the vision on Eletania into account. The oldest known cro-magnon specimens are dated to around 35,000 years ago, the protheans died out ~50,000 years ago which means that they probably pre-dated the cro-magnon, so perhaps it was the reapers utilising the collectors and their oculi (the vision mentions a silver, wingless bird with a red orb on its underbelly) who were studying humans.

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Bad King wrote...

2). TIM is attempting to study indoctrination and find a way of gaining the benefits of it without suffering any of the negatives, and it's unlikely that they are indoctrinated by the reapers.

We have yet to see if TIM's alingnment with the Reapers is genuine. I think he has indeed acquired means to withstand the indoctrination, which would allow him to let the Reapers (and Shepard with the rest of the galaxy, for that matter) believe Cerberus are their pawns, while at the same time he is able to doublecross Harbie at will.

That too is a distinct possibility. TIM may be waiting to get into a strong enough position to strike- but this would depend on his ability to pretend that Cerberus are on the reapers' side (through doing things like attempting to kill the fertile krogan female on Sur'Kesh).

Also, to support the Mars ruins being the key to Cerberus's rapid growth and success- in one of the demos we see Shepard and his squad fighting Cerberus on what appears to be a city on Mars (Lowell city perhaps?)- are they trying to protect their assets from Shepard?

Modifié par Bad King, 30 septembre 2011 - 10:07 .

[DCarter]

Nice thread. I'd seen those articles but never linked them together like that. I'm not convinced if cerberus's rapid expansion is derived from the Prothean base on mars.It seems more likely to me that it's come from cerberus's studies of the collector base since that place must of been crammed with bio-engineering mumbo jumbo.

However i'm certain the Protheans will be important in mass effect 3, they seem the most likely source of the magic bullet we need to beat the reapers. There's a line in LotSB where Liara mentions the shadow brokers research into prothean and how he seemed sure that they had other plans to deal with the reapers or something along those lines. I took that as a not so subtle hint for their involvement in ME3.

[AlexXIV]

Well it's only a couple of months from ME2 to ME3, so I don't see how Cerberus is building an experienced and loyal army by then. That would really strain integrity of the story. Mercs are not really a valid point because mercs ain't loyal.

What also disturbs be is the talk about the ME books. I only played the game, to my knowledge Cerberus does not own any Collector Bases, since my Shep destroyed the one they tried to get. If Cerberus is going to start conjuring bunnies out of their hat I'm probably going to pass on the whole story.

I love the ME story so far and there is really no need to ruin it for the sake of it.

[Thompson family]

Bad King, your post answers the $10,000 question, IMHO.

Why does Cerberus want to kill Shep now, after going to such lengths to bring Shep back?

What is the one truly unique thing about Shep, paragon or renegade?

Hint: It's not because s/he is a great leader or an inspiration or the baddest SOB in the galaxy.


=====================

Shep speaks Prothean, or at least understands it.

S/he is the ONLY sentient organic left alive who received the vision from the Beacon. S/he is the only sentient organic left alive (except for Shali, assuming she wasn't executed) to receive the Cipher. S/he got a data disc from Vigil and is the comrade (if not the lover) of the galaxy's top Prothean expert.

On Ilos in ME1, not even Liara (who's probed Shep's mind) can't understand the Prothean warning broadcast encountered underground on the way to the Conduit.

We know from reveals from BioWare that the Protheans are making some kind of re-appearance. Certainly linguists could figure out ways to communicate fairly quickly, but Shep can fully communicate with them now.

Consider all that with your OP's point that Cerberus has control of the find on Mars.

Now let's make a leap: suppose there is one other living being that can understand Prothean.

Suppose it's TIM. The Arca Monolith in "Mass Effect: Evolution" gave him the ability to speak Asari, for instance, and I believe the Archaic language spoken by the Indoctrinated Monolith guards.

Suppose TIM brought Shep back to life, then got full control of this Prothean site that holds some key to whipping the Reapers. Now suppose TIM doesn't want to share it.

Modifié par Thompson family, 16 octobre 2011 - 04:24 .

[JeffZero]

Excellent thread. Damn fine thread.

[eye basher]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Clones wouldn't work, we heard their voice and it would be kind of easy to see coming if we play FemShep and the soldiers are female.

Actually it wouldn't be that hard remember Miranda she didn't have a mother she was made from her father alone.

[Xerxes52]

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

Shepard clones + Okeer's memory imprinting tech to make them combat ready + Indoctrination to make sure they don't have free will

I'm going with this, but with a slight variation: Instead of clones, they are genetically engineered super soldiers. They'd probably have some DNA from Shepard (along with hundreds of other sources), but they wouldn't be true clones, more like biological constructs (i.e. Grunt).

[staindgrey]

I suddenly want to read the novels.

Need... money... tired... or ramen...

[SandTrout]

Xerxes52 wrote...

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

Shepard clones + Okeer's memory imprinting tech to make them combat ready + Indoctrination to make sure they don't have free will

I'm going with this, but with a slight variation: Instead of clones, they are genetically engineered super soldiers. They'd probably have some DNA from Shepard (along with hundreds of other sources), but they wouldn't be true clones, more like biological constructs (i.e. Grunt).

Do we even know if Cerberus has access to Okeer's imprinting tech? Rana Thanoptis was the expert (if she's alive) and she booked it out of there before a Cerberus team (other than Shepard) could arrive.

[1136342t54_]

[quote]SandTrout wrote...

I'm going with this, but with a slight variation: Instead of clones, they are genetically engineered super soldiers. They'd probably have some DNA from Shepard (along with hundreds of other sources), but they wouldn't be true clones, more like biological constructs (i.e. Grunt).[/quote] Do we even know if Cerberus has access to Okeer's imprinting tech? Rana Thanoptis was the expert (if she's alive) and she booked it out of there before a Cerberus team (other than Shepard) could arrive.
[/quote]

Maybe Okeer left notes or information regarding his cloning methods? Since Cerberus is working with or for the Reapers the Reapers should have good cloning tech. Collectors were able to help Okeer perfect his cloning technology to make Grunt. It isn't a huge leap that Reaper biotechnology is good enough to create full grown clones.

[BobTheAndroid]

He e -mailed to his identical clone the Cigarette Smoking Man to help him out with his alien cloning project.

[capn233]

Rovay wrote...

This theory is kinda nulled, because there will be Cerberus enemies of both genders to fight.

Unless they have reverse-gendered some clones...

In the mech attack on the Lazarus station, Shepard's complete genetic sequence was lost.  They were able to get most of the fragments from reconstructing data.  However, they had to fill in the gaps with amphibian DNA.

Kasumi: "Even on a Cerberus vessel, life finds a way."

[Sajuro]

Robhuzz wrote...

Arkitekt wrote...

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

Shepard clones + Okeer's memory imprinting tech to make them combat ready + Indoctrination to make sure they don't have free will

This would be frightening, actually.

Imagine one of them taking out the helmet, and it's you!

(in fact the fact they have such opaque helmets when no organic had them previously in ME games, is a clear indication that the soldiers' nature and appearance are one of the mysteries to unravel).

If they were Shepard clones then why would Cerberus need a whole army of them to take the real Shepard out? I mean, isn't a clone supposed to be exactly the same as the one it's based on? 3 clones should be enough to stop and overpower a squad of Shepard + 2 random squad members. It would also be insulting if those were Shepard clones, juding from the ease with which they're taken out....

Honestly they would be imperfect clones probably who didn't have Shep's inherant badassness

[Zakatak757]

Cloning a single Shepard would not give you as much as an advantage as having Shepard, neccessarily.

1. the resulting specimens would be 100% organic, Shepard has 'upgrades'
2. these clones would need a mental imprint, and we know those fail (Grunt feels nothing for Okeer's thought, the 'Tank-bred Krogan' was confused of his purpose)
3. these "Shepards" do not have a motivation, a goal, a drive. They may do what they are told, but only because their blood and bone tell them to
4. they lack plot armor

An army of Shepards is wasted resources. An army of Krogan would be much better.

[Drone223]

There are several problems with the Cerberus army being clones of Shepard

1. Shepard could be a biotic, none of the Cerberus soilder's have biotics
2. As of late none of the soilders have cybernetic enhancments, Shepards has these enhancements
3. The clone's may go berserk like Okeer's 

Modifié par Drone223, 17 octobre 2011 - 05:49 .

[Bad King]

Another thing that has sprung into my mind is what if the protheans' Mars bases were part of their long term plan of defeating the reapers? Sure, they already tampered with the reapers' control over the citadel relay, but what if there was another prothean team working on their own plan? Remember LotSB's revelation?:

Shepard: Why was he [the former Shadow Broker] still looking at Protheans? They gave us the warning and the Conduit at Ilos, but we've used those.
Liara: The Shadow Broker seemed to think that there was more out there. Perhaps the Protheans had other plans.

Based on the fact that the protheans were studying humanity (see Eletania's orb) using their Mars bases, perhaps the protheans had hatched a new plan to defeat the reapers- a plan which would use humanity as its main weapon, which was why they were studying Cro-magnons (the oldest cro-magnon fossils are significantly younger than 50,000 years old- therefore the protheans' study of them may well have been undertaken by scientists who stayed hidden who waited for the reapers to leave before commencing the study).

Perhaps Cerberus's investigation into these newly discovered Mars ruins led to the discovery of this plan regarding humanity (whatever it may be) and this plan was significant enough to cause TIM and Cerberus to completely change their plans.

Modifié par Bad King, 25 octobre 2011 - 01:29 .

[Dean_the_Young]

Zakatak757 wrote...

Cloning a single Shepard would not give you as much as an advantage as having Shepard, neccessarily.

1. the resulting specimens would be 100% organic, Shepard has 'upgrades'

So just add upgrades after cloning.

2. these clones would need a mental imprint, and we know those fail (Grunt feels nothing for Okeer's thought, the 'Tank-bred Krogan' was confused of his purpose)

We also know how they succede: the Prothean beacon imprint, and the cipher, did exactly what they were supposed to do to Shepard. And once Grunt did have more context, such as the Right, the tank memories did stir things in him.

3. these "Shepards" do not have a motivation, a goal, a drive. They may do what they are told, but only because their blood and bone tell them to

Cypher.

4. they lack plot armor

So does Shepard on at least one occassion, and quitely easily in ME3. That sort of objection hardly stands on its own.

[Bad King]

(Updated OP)

[Dean_the_Young]

Drone223 wrote...

There are several problems with the Cerberus army being clones of Shepard

1. Shepard could be a biotic, none of the Cerberus soilder's have biotics

Besides that we don't know that, biotics aren't a genetic attribute, but can be induced in clones as desired (see: Miranda).

2. As of late none of the soilders have cybernetic enhancments, Shepards has these enhancements

We don't know what's been done to the Cerberus soldiers one way or another. We do know that Cerberus easily has the knowledge to make such enhancements.

3. The clone's may go berserk like Okeer's 

Or they may do just what they meant to do, like Saren's.

[xIxDarkWolfxIx]

Very good research and a solid theory. I want this theory and that Arcian theory (The Enkindler Lives) to be correct. They both provide significant research and a well constructed and thought out theory which is very plausible. I especially like the latter theory.