162 réponses à ce sujet

[NICKjnp]

@rolson00
Nope...someone asked my opinion of it. Perhaps you should read the previous posts before you start calling someone a troll.

[SnowHeart1]

On one hand, it seems like a fair question to me. As the OP said, the other thread specifically says at the beginning, if you have a problem, go somewhere else. (Which I think is appropriate; otherwise it attracts a lot of trolls.) On the other hand, even when started with the best of intentions, these types of discussions typically wind up being some variation of a political/religious conversation, which invariably leads to flame wars, which means they get locked, which is why they're banned in many forum TOS statements.

Modifié par SnowHeart1, 30 septembre 2011 - 06:51 .

[Valdrane78]

SandTrout wrote...

Valdrane78 wrote...

The only pro is that it creates a little more diversity in game.  There are no cons.  Any and all other pro's and cons are purely player preferance.

fixed.

Wrong, it does create diversity in game.  Which also gives it a greater depth.

[SandTrout]

Valdrane78 wrote...

SandTrout wrote...

Valdrane78 wrote...

The only pro is that it creates a little more diversity in game.  There are no cons.  Any and all other pro's and cons are purely player preferance.

fixed.

Wrong, it does create diversity in game.  Which also gives it a greater depth.

I'm not agrueing that it doesn't create more diversity, only that weather that is a pro or con is based purely on a player's preference.

[Valdrane78]

SandTrout wrote...

Valdrane78 wrote...

SandTrout wrote...

Valdrane78 wrote...

The only pro is that it creates a little more diversity in game.  There are no cons.  Any and all other pro's and cons are purely player preferance.

fixed.

Wrong, it does create diversity in game.  Which also gives it a greater depth.

I'm not agrueing that it doesn't create more diversity, only that weather that is a pro or con is based purely on a player's preference.

Anything that helps to mimic the real world in an RPG is a pro.  Having same sex relationships mimics that reality.

[SnowHeart1]

Valdrane78 wrote...
Anything that helps to mimic the real world in an RPG is a pro.  Having same sex relationships mimics that reality.

I reject your reality and substitute my own! 

Modifié par SnowHeart1, 30 septembre 2011 - 06:58 .

[shepskisaac]

SandTrout wrote...

However, I do take issue with irrational changes to established characters

In order to change something, it would have to be established first. Does Miranda ever turns down FemShep? No, so it wouldn't be changed to 'not turning down'. Garrus doesn't even like humans, he never said anything to FemShep until she asked him to romance her and he did that because he respects her lol. So where would be the change here? Nowhere since ManShep couldn't ask him the same so there never was any point where he could say something that would be changed later. When does Ash says anything about not liking girls? How would the fact she likes men automatically exclude the possibility she also may like women? Etc with the rest of the characters. There wouldn't be any changes. News information/expansion? Sure. But that happens with the characters all the time, they always give you knew info about themselves. Even in ME1, you didn't know everything about Garrus, you had to wait till ME2 to learn more.

[General User]

Nashiktal wrote...

I have to say though, and I am not trolling, but what exactly are the DIRECT cons of S/S romances?

If they didn't make previous characters Bi, and bioware has said all romances are now player initiative (I.E squademates are reactive now) then what exactly is the con?

I don't think there are any direct cons to s/s romance content. There are cons for making all romance options available to both genders.

As long as extremists on both sides of the argument keep talking about two different things these debates will be nothing more than rhetorical merry-go-rounds. And I'm getting dizzy.


Mama told me, "Never criticize without offering a solution." 
In that spirit, let me propose an exercise, a challenge if you will: Complete this list, I did the first two.

Kaidan should be a s/s option because his behavior on Horizon with mShep is indicative of feeling beyond friendship for mShep.

Jack should be a s/s option because she mentions having past sexual relationships with women.

Garrus should be a s/s option because…

Tali should be a s/s option because…

Miranda should be a s/s option because…

Jacob should be a s/s option because…

Ashley should be a s/s option because…

Thane should be a s/s option because…

Modifié par General User, 30 septembre 2011 - 07:00 .

[nelly21]

The only con I see is if they come on the player. For example, in DA 2, Anders and Fenris both make passes at Hawke. I'm not cool with Anders (didn't mind Fenris) doing that because I had thought Anders was straight and it kind of caught me off guard. I know some people say that it wasn't specifically said he was straight but man, in Awakening he seemed pretty straight to me.

Kaidan I could see it happening maybe but Jacob seemed pretty set in his ways. It would be jarring to me to have him turn bi. But in the end, if they do turn everyone bi, it wouldn't affect my enjoyment of the game. And honestly, I don't see how more content for more people would be a problem for anyone.

[SnowHeart1]

General User wrote...

Tali should be a s/s option because…

I thought she was in ME2... or was that just a PC hack vid I saw?

[Valdrane78]

General User wrote...

Nashiktal wrote...

I have to say though, and I am not trolling, but what exactly are the DIRECT cons of S/S romances?

If they didn't make previous characters Bi, and bioware has said all romances are now player initiative (I.E squademates are reactive now) then what exactly is the con?

I don't think there are any direct cons to s/s romance content. There are cons for making all romance options available to both genders.

As long as extremists on both sides of the argument keep talking about two different things these debates will be nothing more than rhetorical merry-go-rounds. And I'm getting dizzy.


Mama told me, "Never criticize without offering a solution." 
In that spirit, let me propose an exercise, a challenge if you will: Complete this list, I'll did the first two.

Kaidan should be a s/s option because his behavior on Horizon with mShep is indicative of feeling beyond friendship for mShep.

Jack should be a s/s option because she mentions having past sexual relationships with women.

Garrus should be a s/s option because…

Tali should be a s/s option because…

Miranda should be a s/s option because…

Jacob should be a s/s option because…

Ashley should be a s/s option because…

Thane should be a s/s option because…

I can answer every one of these with one simple sentence.

"Because he/she is my favorite character and I wanna knock boots with them."

[jlb524]

I don't care about it creating 'diversity', I just want options for romance when I play a homosexual PC.

I'd say more options in an RPG is a pro.

General User wrote...

I don't think there are any direct cons to s/s romance content. There are cons for making all romance options available to both genders.

Such as?

Modifié par jlb524, 30 septembre 2011 - 07:03 .

[Xilizhra]

Garrus should be a s/s option because…

Huge anatomical differences between humans and turians makes it clear he's only into Shepard for Shepard's personality as it is.

Tali should be a s/s option because…

The line about suit linkage still sounds highly romantically shy, even with Femshep.

Miranda should be a s/s option because…

There's still an angle to use re: being intimately involved with Shepard's recreation with Femshep. Initial reluctance may be down to her father being against that sort of thing and her not quite getting past it.

Jacob should be a s/s option because…

No one gives a crap about Jacob.

Ashley should be a s/s option because…

See Kaidan.

Thane should be a s/s option because…

I don't have a specific reason here yet, but I haven't thought about Thane much.

[NICKjnp]

I suppose that since it hasn't been established that the squadmate who died on Virmire could still be alive and end up being a squadmate in ME3 because they didn't find a body?

[ladyvader]

SnowHeart1 wrote...

General User wrote...

Tali should be a s/s option because…

I thought she was in ME2... or was that just a PC hack vid I saw?

It's a PC mod. 

[jeweledleah]

it really depends on how you look at the story and characters. for people who hold the view of "its alternate universes and player determines npc sexuality (becasue apparently not asking a question means that the answer doesn't exist - like a child who covers their face with palms and thinks that they made it dark instead of just obscuring their vision), as well as - I don't care how they do it or about people who want different things - I want my OTP. yeah, there are no cons. they don't care if the dialogue is inconsistent and/or copy pasted.

Bioware is already having issues with consistency, in all areas. so lets just compound it and add even more inconsistencies. heck I might as well be playing SIMS.
and if you don't like something? HOMOPHOBE! BIGGOT!

thank you BSN for teaching me that despite being a staunch supporter of gay rights, gay marriage etc in real life, I am in fact a homophobe becasue I would rather bioware didn't "expand" characters who already showed preferences for specific gender Shepard. and no, its not the same as Garrus - who was not an LI in a first place, so you really had no idea whom he preferred and how (Tali was... lets just say I very much hate how her romance was implemented). this would be like making, say, Joker into LI - who wasn't LI in a first place, but who's obviously close to either gender Shepard. AND he's alive in every single game.

[Valdrane78]

SnowHeart1 wrote...

Valdrane78 wrote...
Anything that helps to mimic the real world in an RPG is a pro.  Having same sex relationships mimics that reality.

I reject your reality and substitute my own! 

Adam Savage is just the frelling coolest man alive.

[FoxHound109]

Five pages discussing S/S merits in the game and no ReconTeam screaming about "vocal minorities" getting "special privileges?"

Modifié par FoxHound109, 30 septembre 2011 - 07:08 .

[shepskisaac]

NICKjnp wrote...

I suppose that since it hasn't been established that the squadmate who died on Virmire could still be alive and end up being a squadmate in ME3 because they didn't find a body?

I suppouse it's a fact there would be no body to find after nuclear explosion near your body.

FoxHound109 wrote...

Five pages discussing S/S merits in
the game and no ReconTeam screaming about "vocal minorities" getting
"special privileges?"

Maybe he's busy sitting on TOR forums since they have fresh hot s/s drama going on?

Modifié par IsaacShep, 30 septembre 2011 - 07:09 .

[General User]

Valdrane78 wrote...

SandTrout wrote...

Valdrane78 wrote...

SandTrout wrote...

Valdrane78 wrote...

The only pro is that it creates a little more diversity in game.  There are no cons.  Any and all other pro's and cons are purely player preferance.

fixed.

Wrong, it does create diversity in game.  Which also gives it a greater depth.

I'm not agrueing that it doesn't create more diversity, only that weather that is a pro or con is based purely on a player's preference.

Anything that helps to mimic the real world in an RPG is a pro.  Having same sex relationships mimics that reality.

Having every person you live and/or work with be bisexual does not mimic reality either. 

So what are we to make of that?  If having no s/s relationships or homosexuals around is ridiculous, and having everyone around you be bi is also ridiculous, then the solution is obvious:  have some characters be gay, others bi, and others heterosexual.  It then becomes a matter of deciding which characters could or should belong in which catagory.

I think Kaidan and Jack should be made into s/s options, and the rest left as they are.  What do you think?

[Xilizhra]

thank you BSN for teaching me that despite being a staunch supporter of gay rights, gay marriage etc in real life, I am in fact a homophobe becasue I would rather bioware didn't "expand" characters who already showed preferences for specific gender Shepard. and no, its not the same as Garrus - who was not an LI in a first place, so you really had no idea whom he preferred and how (Tali was... lets just say I very much hate how her romance was implemented). this would be like making, say, Joker into LI - who wasn't LI in a first place, but who's obviously close to either gender Shepard. AND he's alive in every single game.

I believe that you're genuine. I also don't believe your opinion is the majority among your "side."

[Nashiktal]

NICKjnp wrote...

I suppose that since it hasn't been established that the squadmate who died on Virmire could still be alive and end up being a squadmate in ME3 because they didn't find a body?

Did you see the size of that explosion? I doubt the planet is even habitable anymore.

[nelly21]

General User wrote...

I don't think there are any direct cons to s/s romance content. There are cons for making all romance options available to both genders.

As long as extremists on both sides of the argument keep talking about two different things these debates will be nothing more than rhetorical merry-go-rounds. And I'm getting dizzy.


Mama told me, "Never criticize without offering a solution." 
In that spirit, let me propose an exercise, a challenge if you will: Complete this list, I did the first two.

Kaidan should be a s/s option because his behavior on Horizon with mShep is indicative of feeling beyond friendship for mShep.

Jack should be a s/s option because she mentions having past sexual relationships with women.

Garrus should be a s/s option because…

Tali should be a s/s option because…

Miranda should be a s/s option because…

Jacob should be a s/s option because…

Ashley should be a s/s option because…

Thane should be a s/s option because…

While I agree with you, the problem with this list is that the proponents of s/s will say that these characters never expressly turned down the same sex Sheps. I don't think that's a fair assessment. I've never turned down a dude before. But I'm married and have the hots for Miri (well, mostly Yvonne Strahovski ). People don't question whether I'm straight or not. The same can be said for Jacob, Thane, Garrus, Ashley, etc. They have been portrayed as being stright thus far. It would be stupid to me to need characters to specifically state, "I'M NOT GAY".

That being said, if it is entirely player initiated, I just can't see what problem anyone would have.

[SandTrout]

IsaacShep wrote...

In order to change something, it would have to be established first. Does Miranda ever turns down FemShep? No, so it wouldn't be changed to 'not turning down'. Garrus doesn't even like humans, he never said anything to FemShep until she asked him to romance her and he did that because he respects her lol. So where would be the change here? Nowhere since ManShep couldn't ask him the same so there never was any point where he could say something that would be changed later. When does Ash says anything about not liking girls? How would the fact she likes men automatically exclude the possibility she also may like women? Etc with the rest of the characters. There wouldn't be any changes. News information/expansion? Sure. But that happens with the characters all the time, they always give you knew info about themselves. Even in ME1, you didn't know everything about Garrus, you had to wait till ME2 to learn more.

The clear implication from bioware disabling the dialogue lines that would allow S/S relationship is that the answer would be no, so exploring that direction would be pointless anyways. It plays into the Law of Conservation of detail in that things that are not relevant are excluded. Since those specific S/S relationship are not possible anyways, BioWare decided not to bother the audience with a dead-end path.

The Garus and Tali things were blatant fan-service, and in both cases, they intentionally pointed out that they'd never done that kind of thing before. The species gap is also a bit more of a deviant behavior than homosexuality, meaning that it will be more strange regardless, and require more internal conflict before the decision is made.

Granted, BioWare also left themselves wiggleroom on the topic in that only a few characters specifically reject Shepard, so that they can decide to make many of the characters bisexual without it being an outright retcon. As General User pointed out before the thread was locked, 1 character 'coming out' and useing the excuse that their bisexuality was never explicitly denied is not an issue. The issue is in the idea of everyone being bi, which is both unrealistic and extremely questionable character development.

On a side note, Jack does explicitly state that she's not into FemShep.