162 réponses à ce sujet

[Valdrane78]

FoxHound109 wrote...

Valdrane78 wrote...

While there are A LOT more bi and gay people on this planet than most peopel think.  The odds of everyone on your team or ship being bi is frankly absurd.

And I disagree that bisexuality is the only real sexuality.  I am not attracted to any man, nore do I have any notions of being with a man.  It has nothing to do with the current social climate, I wouldn't be into men even if being bisexual or gay was the "norm".

It's hard to debate this against your point of view. Not exactly because you're correct, but because nothing I state will change your mind about never being sexually attracted to another man. I think this is a concept that goes painfully against western notions of masculinity and can be difficult to explain if you have built a mentality of "ME? NEVER!" But in most organisms, bisexuality is actually the most common, IIRC. The general idea is that this applies across the board and again, a step further, that most organisms are sexually oportunistic (will take advantage of any sexual situation regardless). I think taboos, which are social constructs, tend to deter these behaviors, but they could still very well be innate. 

I could get inton the subject of a male finding the male form attractive, even in the sense of simply striving to look physically a certain way or appreciating one's own self-image, but I think that discussion would take me pages and pages.

Alright, for the sake of arguement, lets say that one day I find a man that I find attractive.  I dig his attitude and general demeanor.  Would I consider having a sexual liason with him................probably.  I am a sexual being afterall, I have urges and it's hard not to act on thsoe urges with a willing person.

However, I know myself.  I have been around long enough and know enough of the world to know what I want when I want it and how I want it.  I know that I find women incredibly attractive, smooth skin curvatious bodies a softness that men lack.  Small delicate features, and boobs, I frakking love boobs.  And that men, wether they have beer bellies or abs is a turn off for me.

I am not saying that you are wrong, everyone is different and many people do not know who they are.  I am not one of those people. 

[FoxHound109]

nelly21 wrote...

@ Sians

Awesome, way to use the "everybody whose opinion differs from mine is a bigot, idiotic, racist, homophobic, etc. douche. Way to further the cause.

This is really stretching the truth. She never called anybody a bigot, idiotic, racist, homophobe, etc. If you manage to make the jump from here "I don't want gays in my game" to what you CLAIM she said then I think the logical leap here is yours, not hers.

[SandTrout]

I don't doubt that you are correct in your criticism of available data on homosexual/bisexual demographics, I actually poked around a lot trying to find numbers that were even remotely scientific regarding the topic, and the UCLA study was the closest I could find, though other studies of questionable credibility place the number of homosexuals between 10-20%. If you can provide a source on the animal data, I would love to look at it, as I actually have a somewhat similar theory that most people are predisposed toward bisexuality, but the data regarding human sexual preferences is notably lacking.

However, in terms of expected ******/bi/hetero ratios, social constructs still play into the issue because ME is not that distantly detached from modern western culture.

For the sake of fairness so not everyone has to dig up my old locked thread: My source on the statistics

[Siansonea]

FoxHound109 wrote...

nelly21 wrote...

@ Sians

Awesome, way to use the "everybody whose opinion differs from mine is a bigot, idiotic, racist, homophobic, etc. douche. Way to further the cause.

This is really stretching the truth. She never called anybody a bigot, idiotic, racist, homophobe, etc. If you manage to make the jump from here "I don't want gays in my game" to what you CLAIM she said then I think the logical leap here is yours, not hers.

Noticed that too, huh? 

[Maugrim]

TeenZombie wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...

For what it's worth, since this thread seems to be "Siansonea II is a b¡tch for not letting us troll her thread", the very reason I kept the OP the way it is is because of all this anti-same-sex nonsense, which is always "questions" and "concerns" that are a smokescreen for "I don't want teh gay in mah game". Honestly, we're not stupid, we know what's going on, and if you want to be mad about the fact that BioWare is expanding s/s options for Shepard to include m/m (which is the true crux of the matter, let's face it), then you go be mad. But don't expect the rest of us to actually entertain the idea that there is some underlying "valid concern" here. Seriously, people are acting like defending Kaidan's or Garrus' staunch heterosexuality is actually a worthwhile pursuit. You know what? If BioWare makes your bro open to s/s romance, the world will keep on turning. How about diverting that energy toward addressing things that actually DO suck, like the ridiculous logic that led to things like the Lazarus Project, the Baby Reaper, and other facepalmingly bad moments that occur in EVERY playthrough, not just within an optional romance storyline. Mmkay?

I know you don't swing that way, but if you ever want to experience some sweet lady on lady love, I'm here for you.

Take a number and get in line!

[FoxHound109]

Valdrane78 wrote...

FoxHound109 wrote...

Valdrane78 wrote...

While there are A LOT more bi and gay people on this planet than most peopel think.  The odds of everyone on your team or ship being bi is frankly absurd.

And I disagree that bisexuality is the only real sexuality.  I am not attracted to any man, nore do I have any notions of being with a man.  It has nothing to do with the current social climate, I wouldn't be into men even if being bisexual or gay was the "norm".

It's hard to debate this against your point of view. Not exactly because you're correct, but because nothing I state will change your mind about never being sexually attracted to another man. I think this is a concept that goes painfully against western notions of masculinity and can be difficult to explain if you have built a mentality of "ME? NEVER!" But in most organisms, bisexuality is actually the most common, IIRC. The general idea is that this applies across the board and again, a step further, that most organisms are sexually oportunistic (will take advantage of any sexual situation regardless). I think taboos, which are social constructs, tend to deter these behaviors, but they could still very well be innate. 

I could get inton the subject of a male finding the male form attractive, even in the sense of simply striving to look physically a certain way or appreciating one's own self-image, but I think that discussion would take me pages and pages.

Alright, for the sake of arguement, lets say that one day I find a man that I find attractive.  I dig his attitude and general demeanor.  Would I consider having a sexual liason with him................probably.  I am a sexual being afterall, I have urges and it's hard not to act on thsoe urges with a willing person.

However, I know myself.  I have been around long enough and know enough of the world to know what I want when I want it and how I want it.  I know that I find women incredibly attractive, smooth skin curvatious bodies a softness that men lack.  Small delicate features, and boobs, I frakking love boobs.  And that men, wether they have beer bellies or abs is a turn off for me.

I am not saying that you are wrong, everyone is different and many people do not know who they are.  I am not one of those people. 

Thanks. That's actually more open midned than I expected anyone in this discussion to be. I appreciate it. See there is nothing to say you have to dislike women or not find them incredibly attractive. I'm just not sure I buy the idea of human beings being EXCLUSIVELY one or the other. Bisexuality seems more "natural" to me from what I've learned. 

[jlb524]

Someone dig up the statistics on how many straight women would date Ugly Shepard.

[Valdrane78]

FoxHound109 wrote...

Valdrane78 wrote...

FoxHound109 wrote...

Valdrane78 wrote...

While there are A LOT more bi and gay people on this planet than most peopel think.  The odds of everyone on your team or ship being bi is frankly absurd.

And I disagree that bisexuality is the only real sexuality.  I am not attracted to any man, nore do I have any notions of being with a man.  It has nothing to do with the current social climate, I wouldn't be into men even if being bisexual or gay was the "norm".

It's hard to debate this against your point of view. Not exactly because you're correct, but because nothing I state will change your mind about never being sexually attracted to another man. I think this is a concept that goes painfully against western notions of masculinity and can be difficult to explain if you have built a mentality of "ME? NEVER!" But in most organisms, bisexuality is actually the most common, IIRC. The general idea is that this applies across the board and again, a step further, that most organisms are sexually oportunistic (will take advantage of any sexual situation regardless). I think taboos, which are social constructs, tend to deter these behaviors, but they could still very well be innate. 

I could get inton the subject of a male finding the male form attractive, even in the sense of simply striving to look physically a certain way or appreciating one's own self-image, but I think that discussion would take me pages and pages.

Alright, for the sake of arguement, lets say that one day I find a man that I find attractive.  I dig his attitude and general demeanor.  Would I consider having a sexual liason with him................probably.  I am a sexual being afterall, I have urges and it's hard not to act on thsoe urges with a willing person.

However, I know myself.  I have been around long enough and know enough of the world to know what I want when I want it and how I want it.  I know that I find women incredibly attractive, smooth skin curvatious bodies a softness that men lack.  Small delicate features, and boobs, I frakking love boobs.  And that men, wether they have beer bellies or abs is a turn off for me.

I am not saying that you are wrong, everyone is different and many people do not know who they are.  I am not one of those people. 

Thanks. That's actually more open midned than I expected anyone in this discussion to be. I appreciate it. See there is nothing to say you have to dislike women or not find them incredibly attractive. I'm just not sure I buy the idea of human beings being EXCLUSIVELY one or the other. Bisexuality seems more "natural" to me from what I've learned. 

I think that depends on the person.

"EDIT"
It also doesn't hurt that my brother is gay and my wife is bi, lol.

Modifié par Valdrane78, 30 septembre 2011 - 07:43 .

[SandTrout]

jlb524 wrote...

Someone dig up the statistics on how many straight women would date Ugly Shepard.

Women? I'd go gay for Ugly Shepard!

Anyone offended by this should grow a sense of humor

[FoxHound109]

SandTrout wrote...

I don't doubt that you are correct in your criticism of available data on homosexual/bisexual demographics, I actually poked around a lot trying to find numbers that were even remotely scientific regarding the topic, and the UCLA study was the closest I could find, though other studies of questionable credibility place the number of homosexuals between 10-20%. If you can provide a source on the animal data, I would love to look at it, as I actually have a somewhat similar theory that most people are predisposed toward bisexuality, but the data regarding human sexual preferences is notably lacking.

However, in terms of expected ******/bi/hetero ratios, social constructs still play into the issue because ME is not that distantly detached from modern western culture.

For the sake of fairness so not everyone has to dig up my old locked thread: My source on the statistics

I'll have to dig it up, to be honest, but "homosexuality" has been observed in almost every organism in the animal kingdom, including insects. But "homosexuality" in the way it is seen in nature is almost never exclusive. "Homosexuality" in other organisms usually refers to homosexual ACTS, not the sexuality itself. Sexuality seems to be fluid for them. I'll search for you when I get chance though.

[shepskisaac]

SandTrout wrote...

The clear implication from bioware disabling the dialogue lines that would allow S/S relationship is that the answer would be no, so exploring that direction would be pointless anyways. It plays into the Law of Conservation of detail in that things that are not relevant are excluded. Since those specific S/S relationship are not possible anyways, BioWare decided not to bother the audience with a dead-end path.

Would asking Harbinger about Human-Reaper and what the Reapers needed it for be irrelevant? Arrival was a DLC for ME2, a game about stopping Human-Reaper and from Shep's point of view, it would seem extremly relevant to learn more about it. But there was no possibility to ask? Why? Maybe because it really is irrelevant/dead-end path. Or maybe because BW felt like leaving this for big ME3 reveal and progress the interaction with Harbi and the question of Human-Reaper purpouse this way and not another? It's only an interpretation of course, just as my interpretation that they may have left s/s romances for later because they felt like progressing them differently than straight ones, or maybe they didn't have time for s/s romances and thus cut out anything to not touch the subject till it actually starts, later on? All ionterpretations. But so is your interpretation that no possibility to romance tehse characters for same-sex Shepard is a proof BioWare never did, does, or will do want them available for same-sex Shepard. As likely as your interpretation is, it ain't the only one that can be logically created based on the fact there's no option to even ask them about romance, so it's not definitive and not the only scenario possible.

SandTrout wrote...

The Garus and Tali things were blatant fan-service, and in both cases, they intentionally pointed out that they'd never done that kind of thing before.

The point is, they didn't. At no point in ME1 Tali or Garrus turned (opposite-sex) Shep down or said anything about disliking humans sexually. Granted, Garrus says it in ME2 that he ain't actually attracted to humans and is doing "it" with FemShep basically for personality, but that's containted in the game the romance actually happens so it's not like he said that in ME1 and then they made him agree to romance in ME2.

SandTrout wrote...

Granted, BioWare also left themselves wiggleroom on the topic in that only a few characters specifically reject Shepard, so that they can decide to make many of the characters bisexual without it being an outright retcon. As General User pointed out before the thread was locked, 1 character 'coming out' and useing the excuse that their bisexuality was never explicitly denied is not an issue. The issue is in the idea of everyone being bi, which is both unrealistic and extremely questionable character development.

Of course it would be unrealistic. But so are already existing straight romances. Seriously, is it any realistic and good character developement that 7/8 female squadmates are into ManShep? Is it realistic they're into him no matter if he looks like a model or a monster? Is it realistic they're into him no matter if he's holier than thou or serial killer who punches women?

SandTrout wrote...
On a side note, Jack does explicitly state that she's not into FemShep.

She said she won't be part of FemShep's 'girls club' which could also mean 'painting nails and gossiping about Miranda's ******'. And it would fit Jack's character perfectly. But yeah, perhaps she's not into FemShep. But is she straight? With that casual "Do you mean a boyfriend or a girlfriend?" comment I would say hell no. So maybe she will change her mind about FemShep specifically by the time of ME3. Wouldn't be unrealistic to have someone get into someone after some time and not initially, we know real life examples of our friends or maybe even ourselves.

[Stanley Woo]

Not game related.

End of line.

[Siansonea]

SandTrout wrote...

I don't doubt that you are correct in your criticism of available data on homosexual/bisexual demographics, I actually poked around a lot trying to find numbers that were even remotely scientific regarding the topic, and the UCLA study was the closest I could find, though other studies of questionable credibility place the number of homosexuals between 10-20%. If you can provide a source on the animal data, I would love to look at it, as I actually have a somewhat similar theory that most people are predisposed toward bisexuality, but the data regarding human sexual preferences is notably lacking.

However, in terms of expected ******/bi/hetero ratios, social constructs still play into the issue because ME is not that distantly detached from modern western culture.

For the sake of fairness so not everyone has to dig up my old locked thread: My source on the statistics

Hmmm. What are the real world statistics on human-alien relationships? After all, if we're going to have xenophile relationships in the game, they should reflect the ratio of human-alien hookups in real life. Right? That's the point of all this, isn't it? That the game's romance options should accurately mirror our real world society? After all, those alien romances were put there for the percentage of gamers who only have sex with aliens in the own lives, not for any player who might want to take a walk on the wild side. So yeah, I'm waiting on the UCLA study on that.

Seriously, the argument that the demographics of real-world society has any bearing on developing game content is a really slippery slope. By that logic, all we get is ManShep and Tali. It's all about pleasing "the majority", right? Not "wasting" resources on something that "only a few" players would explore. How convenient that such concern for BioWare's precious development resources so neatly dovetails with the anti s/s agenda. I wonder which came, first, the anti-s/s chicken or the resource-wasting egg...