39 réponses à ce sujet

[WhiteKnyght]

It's not that mages are naturally prone to the forbidden or that the Templars are pushing them into it.(Note that Ferelden wasn't half as bad before Uldred and it basically went back to normal after him.)

The real cause of it all is the viel. Kirkwall was a slave pitt full of death and despair during the Tevinter days and that thinned the veil pretty much around the whole city and surrounding area. And where the viel is thin demons from the Fade have more influence and power. Meaning mages and even greedy humans will feel stronger temptations than they normally will.

Even Elthina wonders exactly what caused the veil to thin and if the Mages and Templars had tried to find ways to strengthen it again, it probably would have fixed a lot of things.

[IanPolaris]

So the Chanty in its infinate wisdom puts all Mages in the equivalent of a magical toxic waste dump...and then they wonder why things go wrong.

BRILLIANT! Kudos Chantry, that's BRILLTIANT!

-Polaris

[LobselVith8]

I am not sure that the Band of Three properly explains why the thin veil makes many mages insane, stupid, and asinine, given that's the behavior of virtually all of the mage antagonists who Hawke faces in Kirkwall.

[Bullets McDeath]

Yeah, the fact that you learn this from the codex and nobody ever speaks aloud about it during the entire game more or less pisses me off to no end.

[IanPolaris]

outlaworacle wrote...

Yeah, the fact that you learn this from the codex and nobody ever speaks aloud about it during the entire game more or less pisses me off to no end.

The Devs didn't want most players to know about it.  It would make the mages actually look decent and they clearly didn't want that.  OTOH, they had to have some explaination or completely throw away world continuity from DAO....so they deliberately hid the exculpatory information.

-Polaris

[naledgeborn]

The Enigma of Kirwall

Ancient Tevinter lore is hard to come by, but there's history to be here in Kirkwall, the city once home to the Imperium's slave trade.
What answers does Kirkwall hold? Why look here instead of Perivantium or Vol Dorma? The Imperium does not give up its secrets easily. Even with the magisters centuries dead, our journey is perilous. Here on the dock of the Gallows, we renew our vows. And should we fail, search for the markings of the Band of Three.
—A tattered letter found under a cobblestone. It has curious markings and is signed, "The Band of Three"

The viscount is suspicious, but the bribe was sufficient to gain access to the restricted section of the archives. The money would have been better spent elsewhere, the archives being almost devoid of Imperium-era records.
When the slaves revolted, they hunted magisters and burned the city—at least the parts that could be burned. One account says that the streets were littered with piles of scrolls and books set aflame.
Is our quest futile? Did the slaves destroy the answer? As Maferath's armies toppled the Imperium, they sent three magisters and their legions here. They never arrived. But why march here of all places? What were they coming for?
—Behind a panel with curious markings, signed, "The Band of Three"

It is as we thought. The quarries of Kirkwall were found after the city was sacked by the Imperium and after they started constructing the city. The Imperium found the mineral wealth, not the indigenous people. The histories give conflicting accounts on who lived here before the Imperium. Some say the Alamarri. Some say the Daefads. We do know it was a barbarian people who had little need of the metals in the hills.
So why did the Imperium come here in such force? It is hard to disprove Brother Mikhel's theory that the natural harbor would be important for their armies, but magisters ruled, not common men. What barrier would a simple sea pose to them. The wars with the Alamarri wouldn't start until centuries later.
Each clue we find only leads to more questions, but we will not give up.
—Underneath a pile of small boulders carved with curious markings and signed, "The Band of Three"

In the back alleys of Lowtown you can find extraordinary things. Priceless tomes of knowledge can be bought with a handful of gold: The Chant of Archon Lovais, a whole chapter of the Midnight Compendium. Some of these books were thought lost forever!
And these are no forgeries. I've verified their authenticity myself. The fences have no inkling that what they're selling has value. Where did these books come from?
After several failed attempts, I got my answer underneath the city. There is a hive of hidden passages in Kirkwall's sewers. Now and then a lucky "sewer rat" comes across an unlooted chamber, and then a cache of ancient Tevinter relics spreads through the black market. We must search below the city.
—Underneath a cobblestone with curious markings, faintly glowing. It is signed, "The Band of Three"

A maze of caves, sewers, and hidden passages! We found three Tevinter chambers already looted, but today (tonight?) we found one closed. It was a small cell containing a few trinkets and a common tome, but it symbolizes hope. The magisters had hundreds of mages deep below Kirkwall. They lived and researched here, far from the scrutiny of common men.
Many ancient cities specialized in arcane research, but why did Kirkwall hide its efforts here? Why go to such great pains to keep it out of sight? Were they a cabal of renegade magisters? Or was this a special project of the archon?
—Hidden in a small fissure near curious markings and signed, "The Band of Three"

A master mason made a comment that set my mind afire. She said that of all the cities she's worked in, Kirkwall was the most difficult, and that the city is almost literally a maze. Recollecting my first years in Kirkwall, I have to agree. Getting lost was commonplace. The city was a sprawling mess.
The mason showed me a plan of the city, and my heart skipped a beat. There were patterns in the intersections, back alleys, and boulevards. Some magisters believed in the power of symbols or shapes. In the oldest parts of the city, one can make out the outlines of glyphs in the very streets! What manner of magic is this?
—Underneath a cobblestone with curious markings and signed, "The Band of Three"

Ironically, the Chantry has the best records on the Imperium occupation that we've found—none of the forbidden texts, which have undoubtedly been destroyed, but many administrative records. In their cold, numbered rows, mystery is told. Thousands of slaves passed through the Gallows to work the mines or to be shipped elsewhere.
The list of elven children is numbing: "three maimed, two mute, and four serviceable." These numbers don't add up. For every thousands slaves that came to Kirkwall, a hundred disappeared. I checked the tax rolls, as well, and the discrepancy exists there, too, if one has the wit to see it: 203 slaves went missing in the Imperium's 312th year! That's just one year. Other records showed similar discrepancies. Over centuries, partically a whole civilization of slaves simply disappeared.
—Hidden inside the cover of a book with curious markings and signed, "The Band of Three"

After pursuing another dead end, we were attacked by maleficarum. I fear V. will not make it. The fences must have tipped them off. Are they cultists trying to protect the answer? Are they after it themselves? Or was it a random attack?
The mage Circle of Kirkwall have a more troubled history than those in other Circles. A greater percentage of them do not survive the Harrowing, and a greater percentage turn to blood magic—almost double that of Starkhaven or Ostwick. Is there a secret fraternity delving into the Tevinter secrets of this city?
Either way, we must be more careful, lest we become the Band of One. Or None.
—Hidden under a cobblestone with curious markings and signed, "The Band of Three"

Access has not been easy, and I fear my disguise will not bear great scrutiny. But I saw the records the templars say do not exist. The blood of countless slaves was spilled beneath the city in sacrifice. Whole buildings were built upon lakes of blood. The sewers have grooves where blood would flow, all leading down. The scale is hard to fathom.
A blood mage can channel great power from a simple cut. At least a thousand unfortunates died here every year for centuries. For what ungodly purpose would one need so much power?
I must retreat now before I am uncovered. But the answer is close.
—Behind a panel with curious markings and signed, "The Band of Three"

It is well known that the Veil is thin in Kirkwall, small wonder given the suffering in the city. But we've discovered the magisters were deliberately thinning it even further. Beneath the city, demons can contact even normal men. Did they seek the Black City to compound the madness of their previous efforts? Or was it something else? We've found a chamber where the Veil is at its thinnest, long-since looted, but the power is still there. Tonight we will go there. Pray for us. Pray for us all.
—Hidden behind a rock with curious markings and signed, "The Band of Three"

A recent trove was uncovered. This one was big, perhaps the archon's visitation chambers.
And a flood of tomes is on the market. Even the simple fences know something is amiss—they've raised their prices at the frenzy of collectors. One said he sold a copy of the Fell Grimoire! I doubt he would lie; how could he know that tome is a mere legend?
If that is real, then what of the Forgotten Ones? This journey has taken us to many strange places, and made us re-evaluate many former truths. Where will it end?
—Hidden under a cobblestone with curious markings and signed, "The Band of Three"

We went to the center of it all. F. is dead and I am alone and injured. I must go back and put an end to it. The maddening thing is there is still no answer. But the Forgotten One, or demon or whatever it is, must be destroyed. I fear one may already be unbound.
I foreswear my oaths. The magister's lore must be burned and the ashes scattered. No good can come of it. And Maker help us if someone does answer what we could not. 
—Hidden near curious markings and signed, "The Band of Three"

Modifié par naledgeborn, 01 octobre 2011 - 03:41 .

[WhiteKnyght]

One thing is for certain. Kirkwall is definitely a place where no Circle of Magi should have been allowed to exist. The Gallows could have been made into a hotel or used for it's original purpose, a prison for criminals, instead.

[whykikyouwhy]

(A few Legacy spoilers with this post...)

It may be more than just a thin Veil that's causing the problems - it may be the history compounded upon that thin Veil which is leading to the madness and the inclination toward the darker side of magic.

From the codex entries that naledgeborn quoted, two stand out in particular:

Access has not been easy, and I fear my disguise will not bear great scrutiny. But I saw the records the templars say do not exist. The blood of countless slaves was spilled beneath the city in sacrifice. Whole buildings were built upon lakes of blood. The sewers have grooves where blood would flow, all leading down. The scale is hard to fathom.
A blood mage can channel great power from a simple cut. At least a thousand unfortunates died here every year for centuries. For what ungodly purpose would one need so much power?
I must retreat now before I am uncovered. But the answer is close.
—Behind a panel with curious markings and signed, "The Band of Three"


It is well known that the Veil is thin in Kirkwall, small wonder given the suffering in the city. But we've discovered the magisters were deliberately thinning it even further. Beneath the city, demons can contact even normal men. Did they seek the Black City to compound the madness of their previous efforts? Or was it something else? We've found a chamber where the Veil is at its thinnest, long-since looted, but the power is still there. Tonight we will go there. Pray for us. Pray for us all.
—Hidden behind a rock with curious markings and signed, "The Band of Three"

There has been some speculation (elsewhere on the forums) that the Magisters attempted to enter the Rotten Twinkie City from Kirkwall. Whether or not that's the case, some grand sacrifice took place under the city. Couple that with the imprisonment of two big bads within the Kirkwall borders - Malvernis/Amgeforn and Corypheus. The codex entry for Amgeforn the Foul states this:


We called it Malvernis. The Pestilent One. It devoured thaigs, turning our fairest work into a noxious waste. It consumed living warriors, turning their bodies to slime, and when its hunger was not abated, it consumed the bones of our ancestors.
Foulness came from its touch, poison and filth and desecration. It threatened the Stone itself. The Shapers bound it. Chained in lyrium stained with the blood of a hundred warriors. But within the orb, it hungered, it waited.
We carried it here to the wasteland of the surface, where it can threaten nothing of value. The Stone will live. The Stone must live. We have sworn to defend it from the Foul One at any price.

While the dwarves sought to protect the Stone by bringing the Pestilent One to the surface and trapped it there, they may have in turn infected that surface.

So, a quick count:

 - Thin Veil
 - Lots of blood made in sacrifice (and thus the pain, agony and horror from the victims)
 - Malvernis
 - Corypheus

Conclusion as to why Kirkwall is infested with Blood Mages/Abominations? There's something in the water.

[The Baconer]

New and exciting.

[Ghost1041]

The real reason is because the game demanded more action and enemies to fight.

[Heimdall]

@Polaris

It's not as if the Chantry had any way of knowing about it. A small group of dedicated researchers managed to discover the truth of it, and at least some of them appear to have been mages. The Chantry would not make a habit of delving into the lore of their oldest enemy, the Tervinter Magisters. Only Mages and a handful of non-Chantry Academics seem to study magic at all. The Band of Three notes imply that a thinner veil is not uncommon in places where great suffering has taken place, though not enough to account for the happenings with the Mages in Kirkwall. They couldn't have known their endeavor was utterly doomed from the start...

[Urzon]

Lord Aesir wrote...

@Polaris

It's not as if the Chantry had any way of knowing about it. A small group of dedicated researchers managed to discover the truth of it, and at least some of them appear to have been mages. The Chantry would not make a habit of delving into the lore of their oldest enemy, the Tervinter Magisters. Only Mages and a handful of non-Chantry Academics seem to study magic at all. The Band of Three notes imply that a thinner veil is not uncommon in places where great suffering has taken place, though not enough to account for the happenings with the Mages in Kirkwall. They couldn't have known their endeavor was utterly doomed from the start...

Access has not been easy, and I fear my disguise will not bear great scrutiny. But I saw the records the templars say do not exist.

Really? You wouldn't want to find out all that can be found out about your enemy? It's is one of the first things a country/organization does when they are about to go to war, even more so after they win and claim a piece of their real estate.

Know thee enemy.

I'm sure the Chantry knows all about Tevinter's history, politics, methods, background, types of magics they use, and what they have done to people where. Plus it is really hard to miss the fact the Tevinter sent thousands of slaves to Kirkwall over the years when they ruled it, without the slaves ever being seen again. The Imperium seem to be very good record keepers, and when it got conquered it was easy for them to cover it up. Since books were still rare and hard to come by back then, all it would take was for them to be "misplaced" and that section of history would be no more.

Modifié par Urzon, 02 octobre 2011 - 07:05 .

[Heimdall]

Don't be so sure. The Chantry seems to prefer that most of old Tervintor be forgotten or locked away. They'd prefer nobody knew of the magics used by the old Magisters. Records are almost always lost in the wake of fanatical conquering armies. The Chantry has always struck me as the type that might burn books anyway.

[Heimdall]

Just because the Chantry has some records locked up somewhere doesn't mean they were able to understand all that they say or even tried to. To the Chantry, the magics of the Imperium are best forgotten.

[Urzon]

Lord Aesir wrote...

Just because the Chantry has some records locked up somewhere doesn't mean they were able to understand all that they say or even tried to. To the Chantry, the magics of the Imperium are best forgotten.

If you think the Chantry would put on a set of blinders to a threat to their power that the magisters were, that's fine, but i'll have to kindly disagree. If the Chantry wanted the magics of ancient magisters to be forgotten they would have simply destoryed the books. They locked them away for a propose, and why do you lock something away? To keep it safe for future use, most likely to study incase of a future attack on the Chantry from Tevinter.

And yes the Chantry would be able to understand the texts. We already seen from Sister Justine and Finn that the Chantry and the Circle do alot of work on ancient texts.

[Heimdall]

Actually I meant understanding the implications of what the Magisters were truly doing. Like I said, the Chantry themselves don't study magic. My point is that they probably didn't understand the actual effects of the work or that it could still affect them centuries later even if they did read it.

Perhaps that was the original purpose, in case of a resurgence of the war with Tervinter. However, we have examples of documents being filed away in RL that were never looked at for centuries and people even forgetting they were there.

[Gervaise]

Given the number of texts that Hawke uncovers both during the main game and in Legacy that point to the fact that there is a reason why mages go bad in Kirkwall, and for that matter other people get possessed more easily, it seems strange that Hawke wouldn't go to Meredith, Cullen, Elthina, and point out that they should get the mages out of there. If they wouldn't listen, then stand on the Chantry steps and yell it like a town crier or at the very least suggest to Sister Nightingale that she passes the information on to the Divine. In fact I actually played one of my Hawkes that way. Although I wasn't given the option of telling anyone, I went from dutifully sending mages back to the Circle at the beginning, to telling them to leave at every opportunity and not just to keep them safe from Templars.

[Sir JK]

Gervaise wrote...

Given the number of texts that Hawke uncovers both during the main game and in Legacy that point to the fact that there is a reason why mages go bad in Kirkwall, and for that matter other people get possessed more easily, it seems strange that Hawke wouldn't go to Meredith, Cullen, Elthina, and point out that they should get the mages out of there. If they wouldn't listen, then stand on the Chantry steps and yell it like a town crier or at the very least suggest to Sister Nightingale that she passes the information on to the Divine. In fact I actually played one of my Hawkes that way. Although I wasn't given the option of telling anyone, I went from dutifully sending mages back to the Circle at the beginning, to telling them to leave at every opportunity and not just to keep them safe from Templars.

I think you're vastly overestimating Hawke's status globally. Hawke just a man (or woman), an extraordinary man perhaps, but has nothing in terms of actual power.

Then there's the fact that Kirkwall is the second largest circle in andrastian Thedas (only Val Royeux being bigger). You can't move tha mages because there's nowhere to move them to. There's no place in Thedas that has the facilities or the manpower to recive the amount of mages.
And splitting them up is perhaps even worse, since it'd cut the few "family" bonds the mages have and force them into circles where they don't even have the language in common with the local mages. It's a recipe for disaster. An assured way to make the mages even more miserable.

Kirkwall is a quite important city. The best harbour in the waking sea. The largest city in southern Free marches. It's only natural they have a massive circle. And a well established one. You can't just move the circle since it probably depends on the traderoutes to bring the mages there.

Moreover, while the texts are probably true. The chantry won't accept Hawke just claiming that they are. They'd want to study them themselves and while they might reach the same conclusion... it's a couple of years worth of work to properly check references, cross-check with other sources and verify it all.
Massive organisations tend to want overwhelming and verified proof since it's so ludicrously expensive to make it move.

[GavrielKay]

I agree with those who say the Chantry had to know something was amiss in Kirkwall. They have had access to everything in the city where Hawke was skulking about on the sidelines. It is just about impossible that the Chantry and Templars wouldn't know that mages in Kirkwall had a higher rate of problems than normal.

Without some kind of contradiction from the devs, I think it's just one more point indicating the general arrogance and corruption of the Chantry. They either want the mages to go crazy to justify their role in keeping them prisoner, or they think they can control it and refuse to take the pragmatic action of moving the circle.

Turning an ancient prison/slave sacrifice central into a circle in the first place was an insane move.

[Heimdall]

GavrielKay wrote...

I agree with those who say the Chantry had to know something was amiss in Kirkwall. They have had access to everything in the city where Hawke was skulking about on the sidelines. It is just about impossible that the Chantry and Templars wouldn't know that mages in Kirkwall had a higher rate of problems than normal.

Without some kind of contradiction from the devs, I think it's just one more point indicating the general arrogance and corruption of the Chantry. They either want the mages to go crazy to justify their role in keeping them prisoner, or they think they can control it and refuse to take the pragmatic action of moving the circle.

Turning an ancient prison/slave sacrifice central into a circle in the first place was an insane move.

They repurpaosed a prisoner for slaves into a prison for mages, makes sense to me.

While it may be that the Chantry had some idea something was amiss in Kirkwall, it's unlikely they understood the scope of the issue.  They may not have even known it had to do with the location at all, but simply more underground mage activity stirring up trouble.  They managed the Circle pretty well for a few centures there.

[Sir JK]

GavrielKay wrote...

I agree with those who say the Chantry had to know something was amiss in Kirkwall. They have had access to everything in the city where Hawke was skulking about on the sidelines. It is just about impossible that the Chantry and Templars wouldn't know that mages in Kirkwall had a higher rate of problems than normal.

Without some kind of contradiction from the devs, I think it's just one more point indicating the general arrogance and corruption of the Chantry. They either want the mages to go crazy to justify their role in keeping them prisoner, or they think they can control it and refuse to take the pragmatic action of moving the circle.

Turning an ancient prison/slave sacrifice central into a circle in the first place was an insane move.

Might I propose option number three: They are more or less aware of it but the cost of moving the circle is much much higher than the cost the increased problems are causing.

When all else fails... one can always trust humanity to take the practical short term option after all.

Modifié par Sir JK, 03 octobre 2011 - 05:30 .

[Patchwork]

THIS is the DLC I want, a way for Hawke to fix the veil so that over time Kirkwall is less vulnerable to demons. End Hawke's story on a positive note, by doing something that will make a lasting difference to the city she/he was champion of.

IMO the Chantry know something is wrong, not what exactly but something, but it's a problem they can handwave. Claim it's the weakness of mages causing the problem rather than deal with the root of it.

Somewhere like Kirkwall is perfect for the Chantry to hold up as an example of the dangers when anyone argues for mage freedom.

[GavrielKay]

Sir JK wrote...

Might I propose option number three: They are more or less aware of it but the cost of moving the circle is much much higher than the cost the increased problems are causing.

When all else fails... one can always trust humanity to take the practical short term option after all.

It is a bit hard for me to believe that moving a circle is tremendously costly.  The Starkhaven circle burned down, causing them to move allt he mages to Kirkwall and no one was complaining about the cost.  For an institution that claims to be doing what's best (and safest) for everyone by keeping the mages locked away from society - the loss of credibility by keeping the Kirkwall circle operating is far worse than any monetary cost of moving it.

It is impossible to believe in the general goodwill of the Chantry when they keep mages in a place like the Gallows under conditions that even Hawke can find clues to as a nobody traipsing around the city.  The only way I'd believe the Chantry had no clue is if the Devs come here and say it was actually written that way. 

I mean, seriously, would there be absolutely no records to be found?  Could the defeated Tevinter empire have cleansed all mention of something so big?  Hawke is first a nobody, then a popular Hero, but she doesn't get to wander through the city records or Chantry records and see what was known.  If nothing else, the mages should have been telling them - and should have been believed (where the veil is concerned) - so they had to know.

I still believe it is either hubris (they think they can handle it) or self serving malevolence (they want to hold the city up as an example of mage misbehavior).  I don't believe there was complete ignorance on the part of the Chantry.