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[Killjoy Cutter]

I still think that Bioware is doing a lot of hinting, but not telling us exactly what the hell (heh) was and is going on under Kirkwall.

[The Big Nothing]

Ser Bard wrote...

THIS is the DLC I want, a way for Hawke to fix the veil so that over time Kirkwall is less vulnerable to demons. End Hawke's story on a positive note, by doing something that will make a lasting difference to the city she/he was champion of.

IMO the Chantry know something is wrong, not what exactly but something, but it's a problem they can handwave. Claim it's the weakness of mages causing the problem rather than deal with the root of it.

Somewhere like Kirkwall is perfect for the Chantry to hold up as an example of the dangers when anyone argues for mage freedom.

Why does everyone want a happy ending? A story is more memorable when everything falls apart.

[Sir JK]

GavrielKay wrote...
It is a bit hard for me to believe that moving a circle is tremendously costly.  The Starkhaven circle burned down, causing them to move allt he mages to Kirkwall and no one was complaining about the cost.  For an institution that claims to be doing what's best (and safest) for everyone by keeping the mages locked away from society - the loss of credibility by keeping the Kirkwall circle operating is far worse than any monetary cost of moving it.

It is impossible to believe in the general goodwill of the Chantry when they keep mages in a place like the Gallows under conditions that even Hawke can find clues to as a nobody traipsing around the city.  The only way I'd believe the Chantry had no clue is if the Devs come here and say it was actually written that way. 

I mean, seriously, would there be absolutely no records to be found?  Could the defeated Tevinter empire have cleansed all mention of something so big?  Hawke is first a nobody, then a popular Hero, but she doesn't get to wander through the city records or Chantry records and see what was known.  If nothing else, the mages should have been telling them - and should have been believed (where the veil is concerned) - so they had to know.

I still believe it is either hubris (they think they can handle it) or self serving malevolence (they want to hold the city up as an example of mage misbehavior).  I don't believe there was complete ignorance on the part of the Chantry.

Mind that the Starkhaven circle burned down, there wasn't much choice in the matter. It was either move them, kill them, keep them in a burnt down building or let them go.

But I don't think i's that credible that the Chantry sits on irrefutable evidence.... or perhaps more correctly... I don't think the chantry knows it sits on them (ie. they have them, but haven't done much research on this matter in particular). Like you say, the loss of credibility would cost more than actually moving the circle. Not to mention the security issues if the mages learn (and if the chantry knows, they will) that it's dangerous to them.

It's far more likely that they simply never looked.
Of course, this warrants the assumption that while Kirkwall is worse... it's not enough to be noticeable outside of statistical analysis (which is probably not invented). That while there is evidence available, it's not researched enough to provide a commonly accepted theory.

Compound this with a rather belliegrient mage population and fortress built to hold people and the Templars have a motivation to keep them there. The mages in Kirkwall are notoriously difficult to control, which makes Kirkwall the ideal place to hold them (if you don't know about the torn veil). It's also very easy to bring mages -to- kirkwall since it's a major trade city. Which certainly helps.

In all practicality, the only thing that makes Kirkwall a bad city for mages is the torn veil. But just like there are Dalish in the Brecilian Forest or human settlements in the Black Marsh, it might not be so easy to notice a torn veil.
Mind... while Kirkwal's veil-issues certainly affects things... one should also keep in mind that there might also be unusual high numbers of bastards in Kirkwall that happen to be mages . Not all mages are going to be nice, and Kirkwall has a unusually large circle. Chances are we're going to see a fair few rotten eggs (and remember, the nice mages are probably the ones staying put in the circle).

[Gervaise]

Small point here - Orsino's last note records how when Kirkwall Circle was set up it was intended to house the worst mages, who were sent there from all over Thedas and were one step away from being made Tranquil. So at that point they utilised the Gallows because it was a prison. In fact the description of the Gallows and what went on in Kirkwall under the Tevinters, make me think that Aeonar (think that's the spelling) the Templar prison mentioned in Origins and the Gallows are one and the same. They'd hardly likely have two locations where the worst offenders are sent.

It may well be that over time, as the numbers of mages in the Freemarches grew, it became a general Circle but may have two sections, the more open bit, where the young mages like Bethany and Ella are housed, and the high security bit which is where Alric was able to carry out his "experiments" on mages behind closed doors.

It did occur to me that since Corypheus was also suspected of contributing to the high level of blood mages and insanity manifesting itself, now Hawke has removed him from the immediate vicinity, disposed of Meredith (which had the side effect of getting rid of all those slave statues), provided they get rid of the lyrium idol (or let Sandal do something with it), even with a thinned veil, Kirkwall might prove to be a lot better in the future. Ironic since the mages have now all been slaughtered. Still Hawke can be said to have achieved something positive during their time there.

[Killjoy Cutter]

There's supposedly something wrong with the veil at Aeonar, so that the fade is inaccessible, thus preventing mages from working magic.

[Urzon]

When the Imperium occupied the area that is present-day Ferelden, they had two sites dedicated to magical experimentation at the extreme ends of the Imperial Highway. The southern one was the fortress of Ostagar, which looked out over the Korcari Wilds. The northern one was Aeonar, although the exact location is now a secret known only to a handful of Templars.

Whatever it was the Tevinter were trying to discover at Aeonar, their work was never completed. The fortress was overrun by disciples of Andraste upon hearing the news of her death. According to legend, it was a massacre-eerily silent, for the invaders caught the mages while all but one of them were in the Fade.

The site was left structurally sound but spiritually damaged. Possibly because of this, the Chantry chose to put it to use as a prison. Accused maleficarum and apostates are held in the confines of Aeonar. Those who have a powerful connection to the Fade, and particularly to demons, will inevitably attract something across the Veil, making the guilty somewhat easier to tell from the innocent.

--From Of Fires, Circles, and Templars: A History of Magic in the Chantry, by Sister Petrine, Chantry scholar.

[/i]While i doubt that Aeonar and the Gallows being one in the same, they do share a close resemblance to one another. The Veil there seems to be ultra thin or torn enough that powerful mages can attract demons from across the Veil.

Which makes me wonder... Were the Tevinters thinning the Veil there as well, like they did in Kirkwall? I doubt a single massarce would have torn the Veil enough to get demons and things to pop across the Veil so easily, since i doubt the templar allow the mages to perform magic at all.

And if they were thinning the Veil in Aeonar and Kirkwall, I wonder if they were doing it in other places as well. It must be the fantasy geek in me, but i'm smelling a Thedas wide ritual circle in the works. Maybe with the Archon pulling a Father from FMA and sac'ing Thedas to achieve godhood, which i can easily see one of them doing.

Modifié par Urzon, 04 octobre 2011 - 05:01 .

[Killjoy Cutter]

Urzon wrote...

When the Imperium occupied the area that is present-day Ferelden, they had two sites dedicated to magical experimentation at the extreme ends of the Imperial Highway. The southern one was the fortress of Ostagar, which looked out over the Korcari Wilds. The northern one was Aeonar, although the exact location is now a secret known only to a handful of Templars.

Whatever it was the Tevinter were trying to discover at Aeonar, their work was never completed. The fortress was overrun by disciples of Andraste upon hearing the news of her death. According to legend, it was a massacre-eerily silent, for the invaders caught the mages while all but one of them were in the Fade.

The site was left structurally sound but spiritually damaged. Possibly because of this, the Chantry chose to put it to use as a prison. Accused maleficarum and apostates are held in the confines of Aeonar. Those who have a powerful connection to the Fade, and particularly to demons, will inevitably attract something across the Veil, making the guilty somewhat easier to tell from the innocent.

--From Of Fires, Circles, and Templars: A History of Magic in the Chantry, by Sister Petrine, Chantry scholar.

[/i]While i doubt that Aeonar and the Gallows being one in the same, they do share a close resemblance to one another. The Veil there seems to be ultra thin or torn enough that powerful mages can attract demons from across the Veil.

Which makes me wonder... Were the Tevinters thinning the Veil there as well, like they did in Kirkwall? I doubt a single massarce would have torn the Veil enough to get demons and things to pop across the Veil so easily, since i doubt the templar allow the mages to perform magic at all.

And if they were thinning the Veil in Aeonar and Kirkwall, I wonder if they were doing it in other places as well. It must be the fantasy geek in me, but i'm smelling a Thedas wide ritual circle in the works. Maybe with the Archon pulling a Father from FMA and sac'ing Thedas to achieve godhood, which i can easily see one of them doing.

OK, I had the thing about the Aeonar backwards, it's been a long time. 

[Patchwork]

The Big Nothing wrote...

Why does everyone want a happy ending? A story is more memorable when everything falls apart.

No matter what Hawke does the quanari attack Kirkwall.
No matter what Hawke does Leandra dies.
No matter what Hawke does Anders blows up the Chantry.
No matter what Hawke does Meredith invokes the Right of Annulment.
No matter what Hawke does Orsino goes nuts and turns into a Harvester.
No matter what Hawke does Meredith tries to arrest Hawke.
No matter what Hawke does a dangerous darkspawn goes free.

And that's just off the top of my head, I'm sure there's plenty of other exampes of things going to hell. DA2 isn't a "and they all lived happily ever after" story and I'm not suggesting it should be. What I'm saying is that just once, just in one major way Hawke makes a difference. It's not even something that would effect the story, the veil would take time to heal. But over time, in  this small way, the city becomes a better place because of an action Hawke took while living there. 

Just once Hawke makes a difference.

Modifié par Ser Bard, 04 octobre 2011 - 07:24 .

[Heimdall]

Ser Bard wrote...

The Big Nothing wrote...

Why does everyone want a happy ending? A story is more memorable when everything falls apart.

No matter what Hawke does the quanari attack Kirkwall.
No matter what Hawke does Leandra dies.
No matter what Hawke does Anders blows up the Chantry.
No matter what Hawke does Meredith invokes the Right of Annulment.
No matter what Hawke does Orsino goes nuts and turns into a Harvester.
No matter what Hawke does Meredith tries to arrest Hawke.
No matter what Hawke does a dangerous darkspawn goes free.

And that's just off the top of my head, I'm sure there's plenty of other exampes of things going to hell. DA2 isn't a "and they all lived happily ever after" story and I'm not suggesting it should be. What I'm saying is that just once, just in one major way Hawke makes a difference. It's not even something that would effect the story, the veil would take time to heal. But over time, in  this small way, the city becomes a better place because of an action Hawke took while living there. 

Just once Hawke makes a difference.

I'd say Hawke stopping the Arishok made a big differance.  Also, Hawke getting the Idol that found itself in Meredith's hands made one hell of a difference and some of the things you mentioned wouldn't have happened.

[Nerevar-as]

Lord Aesir wrote...

I'd say Hawke stopping the Arishok made a big differance.  Also, Hawke getting the Idol that found itself in Meredith's hands made one hell of a difference and some of the things you mentioned wouldn't have happened.

It would be if the alternative had been Arishok taking over KW. As it was presented, Hawke just dealt with him because Orsino and Meredith would rather follow an unknown strange rather than talk to each other. The same with the idol. I felt the expedition would still have happened, Varrick would have found the idol and be left to die by his brother. While that would make the game itself impossible, the later events concerning the Idol wouldn´t be altered.

Modifié par Nerevar-as, 04 octobre 2011 - 11:14 .

[Heimdall]

Nerevar-as wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

I'd say Hawke stopping the Arishok made a big differance.  Also, Hawke getting the Idol that found itself in Meredith's hands made one hell of a difference and some of the things you mentioned wouldn't have happened.

It would be if the alternative had been Arishok taking over KW. As it was presented, Hawke just dealt with him because Orsino and Meredith would rather follow an unknown strange rather than talk to each other. The same with the idol. I felt the expedition would still have happened, Varrick would have found the idol and be left to die by his brother. While that would make the game itself impossible, the later events concerning the Idol wouldn´t be altered.

Just because someone else may have filled Hawke's role doesn't mean Hawke didn't make a difference.  That's like saying the Warden didn't make a difference because Alistair might have pulled it off on his own.

[Morroian]

Nerevar-as wrote...

It would be if the alternative had been Arishok taking over KW. As it was presented, Hawke just dealt with him because Orsino and Meredith would rather follow an unknown strange rather than talk to each other. The same with the idol. I felt the expedition would still have happened, Varrick would have found the idol and be left to die by his brother. While that would make the game itself impossible, the later events concerning the Idol wouldn´t be altered.

IMHO without Hawke the expedition may have started but would not have even made it as far as the Idol.

[Killjoy Cutter]

Too bad Hawke never tries to follow up on what happened to the Idol after they catch up with Bartrand...

[happy_daiz]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Too bad Hawke never tries to follow up on what happened to the Idol after they catch up with Bartrand...

Hawke is too busy delivering peoples' junk to follow up on it. Sorry. 

It did seem like a wasted opportunity, though. Varric did say he would have his peeps look into it, but...yeah.

Modifié par happy_daiz, 05 octobre 2011 - 04:21 .

[Melca36]

happy_daiz wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Too bad Hawke never tries to follow up on what happened to the Idol after they catch up with Bartrand...

Hawke is too busy delivering peoples' junk to follow up on it. Sorry. 

It did seem like a wasted opportunity, though. Varric did say he would have his peeps look into it, but...yeah.

Makers knows it was imperative  for Hawke to deliver Wentworth's Sixth toe and Southside Johnny's remains to their rightful owners.