19 réponses à ce sujet

[Dave of Canada]

On Thedas, there's no true "undead" and everything we've seen such as corpses and ghosts are usually demons or spirits taking one shape or another. Reading the codex entry for Corpses, you'd learn they are simply demons who've entered the bodies of the deceased.

However, for the demon to enter inside the dead body, the body would require a connection to the Fade. So assuming they'd need a passage which would allow them to slip inside their awaiting host, what would occur if the body belonged to somebody tranquil? Could demons "see" the body in the Fade? Would blood mages be capable of "rising" the corpse?

How about non-tranquil corpses? Assuming the tranquil corpses are invisible to demons, could people hypothetically tranquil their deceased friends / comrades / family so their bodies cannot be possessed or must the ritual be performed on a live host?

Thoughts on the subject?

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 01 octobre 2011 - 05:02 .

[IanPolaris]

However a demon that's already in the physical world could provide that connection allowing other demons to "see" Corpses. Also if the Veil is thin enough, Demons can make the connection on their own but it has to be a thin veil....but I note that in the Brecilian forest trees can be possessed and I doubt that trees have much of a fade connection either.

-Polaris

[MichaelFinnegan]

Dave of Canada wrote...

On Thedas, there's no true "undead" and everything we've seen such as corpses and ghosts are usually demons or spirits taking one shape or another. Reading the codex entry for Corpses, you'd learn they are simply demons who've entered the bodies of the deceased.

However, for the demon to enter inside the dead body, the body would require a connection to the Fade.

I think there are two other ways which don't require a connection to the Fade: demon summoning by mages (maleficar is implied by the codex), and Veil tears.

So assuming they'd need a passage which would allow them to slip inside their awaiting host, what would occur if the body belonged to somebody tranquil? Could demons "see" the body in the Fade? Would blood mages be capable of "rising" the corpse?

How about non-tranquil corpses? Assuming the tranquil corpses are invisible to demons, could people hypothetically tranquil their deceased friends / comrades / family so their bodies cannot be possessed or must the ritual be performed on a live host?

Thoughts on the subject?

The way I see it, demons seem to consider what they'd gain by possessing creatures. Emotions and power seem likely. But what would a demon get out of possessing a dead body? This one is unclear. So I assume that the blood mage is forcing the demon into someone's body, in that the mage is controlling the demon.

(Of course, there is the matter of spirits/demons entering trees as well, which has me somewhat flummoxed, I must admit. So, maybe it is something beyond mere emotions or power, maybe it is that those spirits/demons having crossed over cannot survive for long in that form or that their urge for experiencing life is so great that they don't mind possessing "any" creature.)

Now as to what would happen with Veil tears, when a mage is absent: I suppose we might also think of it as memories seemingly lingering on inside the body even when the soul has vacated it. This might attract demons who might cross over through the tear.

As to performing the Rite of Tranquility on dead bodies... it seems to me on initial thought to be a crazy idea... What might attract demons across the Fade is that the soul/spirit of the living is visible to them, but once the spirits/demons cross over, it's anyone's guess if even Tranquil (living or dead) are not susceptible to being possessed.

[Dave of Canada]

It's a crazy idea on initial thought, though should it cut one's connection to the fade it could be fairly effective if they decide the resources are worth the trade off of not allowing the mages another resource available to them.

It seems to me that cutting somebody off from the Fade and stopping dreams is something relatively major, considering everybody (mage or non-mage) has a connection to it including wildlife. Without a direct connection to the fade, could the demon enter it? Is the connection to the Fade essentially one's "soul" (if you believe in that)? Filament brings up an interesting point with the killing of the soul.

We know trees and such can be possessed by a demon, we know that animals can be possessed by a demon and we know that humans / elves can be. However, dwarves cannot be possessed (at least not in the usual manner) and I don't think we've seen any "natural" dwarven corpses. Considering dwarves only have resistance and aren't completely cut off like the Tranquil, this seems huge.

[MichaelFinnegan]

Dave of Canada wrote...

It's a crazy idea on initial thought, though should it cut one's connection to the fade it could be fairly effective if they decide the resources are worth the trade off of not allowing the mages another resource available to them.

I suppose we can think of corpses as having been cut off from the Fade since there is no dreaming involved. And I think RoT on corpses cannot be done because they no longer have souls/spirts/whatever. I think the issue is how does one deal with the other two cases: mage summoning of demons or demons crossing over through Veil tears.

It seems to me that cutting somebody off from the Fade and stopping dreams is something relatively major, considering everybody (mage or non-mage) has a connection to it including wildlife. Without a direct connection to the fade, could the demon enter it?

Unless the demon is already in the mortal world, no.

Is the connection to the Fade essentially one's "soul" (if you believe in that)? Filament brings up an interesting point with the killing of the soul.

That is an interesting question. Tranquil are cut off from the Fade, so are they soulless beings? I know that darkspawn are.

We know trees and such can be possessed by a demon, we know that animals can be possessed by a demon and we know that humans / elves can be.

But is there any evidence that such possession of trees happens across the Fade? I tend to think that the demon is already in the mortal realm when such creatures get possessed.

However, dwarves cannot be possessed (at least not in the usual manner) and I don't think we've seen any "natural" dwarven corpses. Considering dwarves only have resistance and aren't completely cut off like the Tranquil, this seems huge.

I'll agree with you about the two things: Tranquil and dwarves not capable of being possessed from across the Fade is a major thing and it might play a big part in the story. And I'll admit I don't remember of any dwarven corpses either - but should a type of corpse really matter? Hmm...

But let me put this question out there. Can living tranquil and dwarves ever be possessed? I think the possibility is there if the demon has already crossed over, although I cannot remember any instances of this happening in the game.

[Dave of Canada]

I recall during the Circle of Magi quest in Origins, Tranquil were kept magically imprisoned and were being turned into Shades by other demons / abominations. This makes little sense to me, as Shades are supposedly "pure" demons.

Why wouldn't they turn into abominations if a demon simply enters the tranquil? This leads me to believe there's something seriously wrong with the Tranquil that we don't know yet or "gameplay" occurred when creating that scene in Origins.

Would be a bit ironic if Tranquil are literal doorways while mages are simply hosts.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 01 octobre 2011 - 06:32 .

[esper]

Demons is suppossed to be able to leave the Fade without a host - shades are such demons, as far as I remember. There are also suppossed to be demons strong enough to manifest in their true form without any host, I will agree with MichaelFinnigang that they properly leave through a tear in the veil or perhaps just a weak veil.
The interesting thing about dead corspes seems to be that the codexes states that it in many cases are demon confusing the dead for the living. I have always wondered if it is the demon gets confused in Fade or when they leave the Fade.

[MichaelFinnegan]

Dave of Canada wrote...

I recall during the Circle of Magi quest in Origins, Tranquil were kept magically imprisoned and were being turned into Shades by other demons / abominations. This makes little sense to me, as Shades are supposedly "pure" demons.

Why wouldn't they turn into abominations if a demon simply enters the tranquil? This leads me to believe there's something seriously wrong with the Tranquil that we don't know yet or "gameplay" occurred when creating that scene in Origins.

Would be a bit ironic if Tranquil are literal doorways while mages are simply hosts.

Yes, not much is known about what Tranquility means. I think it'll be a good revelation for the future. But your point about shades made me look at this codex. I don't believe I'd read it earlier. It's interesting.

Filament wrote...

I took that to be because, while tranquil don't have souls, they still have a life force. Bears can be drained of their life force for blood magic, I imagine tranquils can too. The demon was using their life force as a means of providing the energy to summon shades (which don't need hosts), not to put a spirit into the tranquil itself.

That makes sense, atleast somewhat. But what would "summoning" shades even mean? Aren't shades aleady in the mortal realm? Perhaps you mean when more demons are summoned using blood of tranquil and those demons cannot inhabit those hosts, they simply turn into shades.

Modifié par MichaelFinnegan, 01 octobre 2011 - 06:47 .

[MichaelFinnegan]

esper wrote...

The interesting thing about dead corspes seems to be that the codexes states that it in many cases are demon confusing the dead for the living. I have always wondered if it is the demon gets confused in Fade or when they leave the Fade.

You can read the codex entry on shades I posted above. One theory goes that the demons become confused in the mortal world because they cannot tranform the mortal world (according to their emotions/memories) as they can transform the Fade.

[Urzon]

While it is slightly off the subject (while slightly being on it as well), I was wondering how the Chantry version of the afterlife works for the tranquil.

It is said that the spirits of the faithful go to the Maker's side after death. I was wondering how that would work for the tranquil, since they no longer have any connection to the Fade (the Maker's realm). Does it mean they get denied an afterlife if their believed in the Maker (before being made tranquil), or does the Chantry say they still go even after the ritual?

[whykikyouwhy]

Venturing in here with a thought...

The Rite of Tranquility cuts off the mage's connection to the Fade, leaving him/her unable to dream (and making them relatively passive and emotionless, or at least less passionate). But where does that imply that the soul is dead? Essentially, doesn't a mage become "normal" - a non-magic-using, non-Fade-dreaming mortal? Maybe the Rite doesn't kill or destroy the soul, but traps it permanently inside the body - the soul can no longer soar and sing and enter the Fade. It's earth-bound, so to speak. Limited and stunted.

That inability to enter the Fade is more akin to what the dwarves experience (along with the other added negative bits regarding emotion), and it ties in with the Tranquil being better able to work at enchanting. I would wager that dwarves have souls, as do the Tranquil. Therefore, to sort of answer Urzon's question, once a Tranquil dies, that soul would travel to the Maker's side as a non-mage soul. The Chant of Light doesn't call out the Tranquil specifically, but it's also not written directly for mages (though some parts are very clearly meant to guide mages into a proper life). So I would think that the same rules would apply...if indeed, the soul is merely trapped.

From the Canticle of Transfigurations:

In the Maker's law and creations, she shall know
The peace of the Maker's benediction.
The Light shall lead her safely
Through the paths of this world, and into the next.

It's the mage who does not use his powers as the Maker intended (thus, the maleficar), who shall not be at the Maker's side and shall find no peace.

Just guessing though.

[MichaelFinnegan]

Filament wrote...

Whatever the exact mechanism is, it seems this 'summoning' is pretty common, particularly in DA2. Tevinter mages seem to use them as their own pocket army.

That the Tevinter mages (or any mage for that matter) can resort to summoning demons at will is a chilling thought. But the fact that it doesn't seem to happen often (outside Kirkwall at least) seems to suggest the awareness of the dangers involved, even among mages. The issue is one of control as our experience with Avernus tells us. A mage could summon all sorts of demons across the Fade, but what does he do then? How does he control them without either falling prey to possession or being killed himself? So really summoning, at least in numbers, has to be a last-ditch effort, if all else fails, unless the mage is somehow powerful enough to control his "pocket army."

[MichaelFinnegan]

whykikyouwhy wrote...

Venturing in here with a thought...

The Rite of Tranquility cuts off the mage's connection to the Fade, leaving him/her unable to dream (and making them relatively passive and emotionless, or at least less passionate). But where does that imply that the soul is dead?

I think it was merely suggested that "maybe" the soul is killed. But it really depends on how you might want to look at it. Do the tranquil lose their ability to make decisions or even their will to survive? No, apparently not. They merely lose their ability to feel emotion. But what does this really mean? How does one comprehend that? So really what is a soul? It is a debatable thing.

Essentially, doesn't a mage become "normal" - a non-magic-using, non-Fade-dreaming mortal? Maybe the Rite doesn't kill or destroy the soul, but traps it permanently inside the body - the soul can no longer soar and sing and enter the Fade. It's earth-bound, so to speak. Limited and stunted.

Yes. And such a soul (or rather, a mind perhaps?) offers precious little for any demon wishing to possess it - which is perhaps why the demons seem to leave the tranquil be in the mortal world.

[Urzon]

whykikyouwhy wrote...

Venturing in here with a thought...

The Rite of Tranquility cuts off the mage's connection to the Fade, leaving him/her unable to dream (and making them relatively passive and emotionless, or at least less passionate). But where does that imply that the soul is dead? Essentially, doesn't a mage become "normal" - a non-magic-using, non-Fade-dreaming mortal? Maybe the Rite doesn't kill or destroy the soul, but traps it permanently inside the body - the soul can no longer soar and sing and enter the Fade. It's earth-bound, so to speak. Limited and stunted.

That inability to enter the Fade is more akin to what the dwarves experience (along with the other added negative bits regarding emotion), and it ties in with the Tranquil being better able to work at enchanting. I would wager that dwarves have souls, as do the Tranquil. Therefore, to sort of answer Urzon's question, once a Tranquil dies, that soul would travel to the Maker's side as a non-mage soul. The Chant of Light doesn't call out the Tranquil specifically, but it's also not written directly for mages (though some parts are very clearly meant to guide mages into a proper life). So I would think that the same rules would apply...if indeed, the soul is merely trapped. 

I'm not totally sure about the locked in soul theory. That would make the Fade the wellspring of all emotion and drive for existence in Thedas (other than for the dwarves). That's a little too hivemind-y for my tastes, and i would have thought that the soul itself would have been able to provided emotions, even more so if that soul is locked into the body. 

So maybe the soul might exist in the Fade itself, and the body is just its vessel in Thedas? That would explain the Karl situation a tiny bit. Justice could have opened a doorway into the Fade that allowed Karl's soul to return for awhile, only to be pushed back into the Fade when Justice powered down. Though, this theory is a little disturbing considering that it bares a strong resemblance to Conner's demon situation in DAO.

[Gervaise]

When I suggested in one of my posts that a Tranquil no longer has free will, I was shot down, but I certainly don't think that means they lack a soul. The lyrium brand blocks entry to the Fade and for some reason that is connected to the supression of emotion as well as magical ability. Since possession is pointed to as being closely connected to hightened emotion, I assume this is why someone originally came up with the Rite of Tranquility, since its primary purpose was to render a mage safe from possession and there is this double safeguard, cutting off from the Fade and suppressed emotion. A dead body will lack the emotions to attract a spirit from the Fade.

What I wondered was that if a spirit like Justice had entered Karl, whether this would have restored his faculties? Normally a demon is going to prefer a living person to a dead one, so whether a non mage, normal mage or tranquil, a dead body is a poor substitute for a living one. Anders maintained he helped Justice partly because he thought it was better than letting him go around haunting dead bodies. With a dead body, the soul definitely has departed and the body is limited in what it can do with only the spirit's limited appreciation of the world to guide it. Forced abominations are only a little better as the mind is totally under control of the spirit. I would assume that any spirit or demon prefers a co-operative partnership and there is so much more scope for interacting with the world with a willing partner.

[TheJediSaint]

I don't think it's ever explicitly shown what is involved in the Rite of Tranquility, so I can only speculate on how it would affect the ability of a demon to possess a Traquil's body. That said, I think from the point of view of a demon, the dead body of a Traquil is just meat waiting to be possessed and turned into an animated corpse and is no different from that of a "normal" corpse. Now I think that the Rite of Tranquility would likely limit what kinds of undead that body can turn into. For example, I don't see a dead Traquil becoming powerful undead like an Arcane Horror or a Revenant, they both require powerful demons who I doubt would be interested in inhabiting a dead Tranquil. So I think a dead Traquil is pretty much only good as a host for lower level demons.