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Lets look at DAO story flaws and not re-implement them in DAIII


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#1
txgoldrush

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Whine all you want about DAII's storytelling but DAO's has SIGNIFICANT flaws that I DO NOT want to see back in DAIII.

A) The entire storyline is very generic and cliched. Truly, there is nothing remotely original about the story, it is basically a typical story in too many uninspired RPGs. While Biowares other games do have their cliches, at least the plot as a whole or the world has some originality. DAO lacks this. It is a by the nubers story and extremely predictable, not to mention the typical human bad guy being a huge idiot and why we even have the story in the first place.

B) Recycled plot and characters. DAO fans must admit that the games plot and the party characters are recycled from past games. There is no doubt about this. Lets see Jedi, Spirit Monks, Specters, and Grey Wardens....tell me DAO is no different...lol. Same four midgame major quest format where you collect plot coupons for the finale. DAO easily follows the formula of every other Bioware game. This extends to their characters which strongly are recycled from past Bioware characters. Its entirely to obvious, every character is the same "Bioware archtype" revisited. There is less of this in DAII, in which only Sebastian (which is done intentionally even featuring the specific character he "copies" in his quest) and Merill (who is a Tali and ME1 Liara mix) feel like typical Bioware characters. Characters like Bethany, Varric, and new Anders break Bioware mold. Not to mention the plot of DAII is very unique for a WRPG. Before DAII, Bioware was becoming like the final Fantasy teams, who recycle their plots and characters over and over.

C) Charcters are divorced from the plot (excluding Alistair and partially Morrigan, as well as Loghain). This makes the characters more window dressing than plot participants. The characters simply do not matter in the plot, either mechanically or even thematically. In my RPG experience, RPGs both Western and Japanese, either A) have them all or nearly all play a role in the story or B) a significant number do while other don't (and most of these games have large casts). Leliena, my fave DAO character, does not have to be even recruited and DAO's plot doesn't change, thats how insignificant she is. Oghren and Wynne are subplot players nothing more. Zervan is introduced by plot event and then he doesn't matter. And Morrigan can easily be written out of the story with very little alteration. Only Alistair plays a role in the plot. DAII is a HUGE step forward, its too bad fanboys are too blinded to see this. Most of DAII cast plays significant roles in the plot (Varric, sibling, Aveline, Isabela, and Anders as well as in the end Sebastian) while the others like Fenris and Merrill are strongly connected to the plots conflicts and themes.

D) Sidequests are divorced from the plot. This goes for the main four midgame quests (which is DAO's saving grace) and the terrible side quests that seem out of place. Lets take a look at Biowares past games and their midgames. KOTOR, while looking for Star Maps, you have to deal with the main plot elements such as the Sith and their allies such as that slaver corp on the Wookie world. Malak sends you not one but two men after you and between the third and fourth planet there is a huge main plot mission. Mass Effect...Therum, Feros, Noveria, and Virmire all deal with Saren, the Geth, and his allies. While each place has their own stories, they are intergrated well with the main plot. Now DAO....the only connection the midgame has to the main plot is some plot coupons given for an alliance, a few darkspawn and  abroodmother more connected to the side plot than th emain one, and one assasin hire from Loghain. The side plots simply overpower the main plot, causing DAO to lose all focus. In DAII's sideplots, while they seem disconnected from the main story at first, eventually connect themselves to the main plot. And for side quests, a great RPG will have sidequests either A) deal with the main plot or B) deal with the narrative themes of the game. Look at Jade Empire, the quests were not random, almost all deal with a break in the natural or social order, just like the main story itself. The Witcher does this well, DX; HR does this well, but DAO does not. They are just random quests and boring ones to boot. DAII however, most of its sidequests deal in both the main plot OR the main narrative themes and conflicts of the game. They are not random. This is a huge aspect that seperates the well written RPGs (Fallout New Vegas) from the poor or mediocre written ones (like Fallout 3).

There are plenty more, but these are the main four problems with DAO....many which are addressed in DAII. Going back to Origins is taking a step back. What Bioware really needs to do is tell an entirely different story, different from DAO, different from DAII, and hell, different from any other Bioware game. Heavily cliched and recycled stories and characters shows flaws in wirting talent, simply put. Instead of making your work look good, it just makes the works you ripped of from look better.

The new DLC is a very bad sign.....it looks like Bioware is back to recycling their plots and characters. Look its Kasumi: Stolen Memory II....or Tallis: Recycled Memory.

#2
Sacred_Fantasy

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TL:DR. But based on your title, I think you are in the wrong section. This is DA 2 section. DAO section is below.

#3
xkg

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Nice try but if you want to keep bashing DAO go to DAO forum

#4
txgoldrush

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Sacred_Fantasy wrote...

TL:DR. But based on your title, I think you are in the wrong section. This is DA 2 section. DAO section is below.


and I have DAII content in my post..so its a DAII post as well.

#5
RagingCyclone

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Um...hate to burst the bubble, but the characters in DA2 were just as cliched as the one's in DAO..And the devs said before release that the framed narrative was inspired by The Usual Suspects. Nice try at bashing...but you fell far short.

#6
Sacred_Fantasy

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txgoldrush wrote...

Sacred_Fantasy wrote...

TL:DR. But based on your title, I think you are in the wrong section. This is DA 2 section. DAO section is below.


and I have DAII content in my post..so its a DAII post as well.

Then you may as well change your title to something else like, " Lets look at DA2 story flaws and not re-implement them in DAIII". Your title thread is misleading considering this is DA 2 section.

Modifié par Sacred_Fantasy, 01 octobre 2011 - 06:39 .


#7
Tommyspa

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I see what you are doing, but you really should have expanded more on DA2. You know, so it's not THAT obvious, a better DA3 needs to vastly improve on both games flaws. Especially seeing how it will be the "best of both worlds"

#8
Foolsfolly

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D) Sidequests are divorced from the plot


I don't think you understand what side quests are.

#9
Sacred_Fantasy

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RagingCyclone wrote...

Um...hate to burst the bubble, but the characters in DA2 were just as cliched as the one's in DAO..And the devs said before release that the framed narrative was inspired by The Usual Suspects. Nice try at bashing...but you fell far short.


Interesting. I search wiki for The Usual Suspects and this cross my mind at once.

While embraced by most viewers and critics, The Usual Suspects was the subject of harsh derision by someRoger Ebert, in a review for the Chicago Sun-Times, gave the film one and a half stars out of four, considering it confusing and uninteresting.[23] He also included the movie in his "most hated films" list.[24] USA Today rated the film two and a half stars out of four, calling it "one of the most densely plotted mysteries in memory - though paradoxically, four-fifths of it is way too easy to predict."


http://en.wikipedia...._Usual_Suspects

Look like similar things happen to DA2.  LOL.

Modifié par Sacred_Fantasy, 01 octobre 2011 - 06:56 .


#10
Guest_Cthulhu42_*

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After seeing so many DA2-bashing threads, it is a refreshing change of pace to see a DA:O-bashing thread. That still doesn't change the fact that OP is wrong, though.

#11
TEWR

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my Dwarf Noble couldn't become king of Orzammar. That's my primary gripe with DAO's story. That's the biggest flaw for me.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 01 octobre 2011 - 06:58 .


#12
txgoldrush

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Foolsfolly wrote...


D) Sidequests are divorced from the plot


I don't think you understand what side quests are.


Which is better?

A) Completly random sideuests

or

B) Sidequests that deal with elements of the games plot and themes.

Look at DX:HR's sidequests....they are not random...lets see in Detroit you deal with your ex-girlfriends mother which highlights some of the ex-girlftiends work and the investigation leading to the attack, a crooked cop connected to the FEMA facility, a guy stealing from work to help augmented people deal with their drug withdraw (which highlights the conflict on human augmentation), and in the second half of the game, a sidequest dealing with Jensen's origins. In the first trip to Hengsha, two sidequests deal with augmentations and their abuse that comes with it and you deal with Faridah Malik's past...and on the second trip, one deals with Hugh Darrow's project and one deals with the villainy of Belltower. You see, the sidequests are optional, BUT THEY DEAL WITH THE MAIN PLOT OR THEMES.

Overrated RPGs such as Fallout 3 and DAO have the flaw of the random sidequest, which is just there to be there and nothing more.

And I differ it from the DAO subplots which are not optional and have to be done, which also weakily tie into the story of DAO.

#13
RagingCyclone

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Sacred_Fantasy wrote...

RagingCyclone wrote...

Um...hate to burst the bubble, but the characters in DA2 were just as cliched as the one's in DAO..And the devs said before release that the framed narrative was inspired by The Usual Suspects. Nice try at bashing...but you fell far short.


Interesting. I search wiki for The Usual Suspects and this cross my mind at once.

While embraced by most viewers and critics, The Usual Suspects was the subject of harsh derision by someRoger Ebert, in a review for the Chicago Sun-Times, gave the film one and a half stars out of four, considering it confusing and uninteresting.[23] He also included the movie in his "most hated films" list.[24] USA Today rated the film two and a half stars out of four, calling it "one of the most densely plotted mysteries in memory - though paradoxically, four-fifths of it is way too easy to predict."


http://en.wikipedia...._Usual_Suspects

Look like similar things happen to DA2.  LOL.


Yep, and while I like the movie I see the parallels in the two. It's why I have joked that Hawke does not exist and Varric is the true mastermind...best line from TUS...the best trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world he did not exist...and like that...he's gone. :whistle:

#14
txgoldrush

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RagingCyclone wrote...

Um...hate to burst the bubble, but the characters in DA2 were just as cliched as the one's in DAO..And the devs said before release that the framed narrative was inspired by The Usual Suspects. Nice try at bashing...but you fell far short.


Do DAII characterss fit into common archtypes...yes, HOWEVER, they are not characters (outside of some) recycled from past Bioware characters.

And the Usual Suspects wasn't the first to have a frame narrative either. Frame narratives, espacially the style Bioware used for DAO, is very uncommon and highly unique for VIDEO GAME RPGS. You can't argue that biographical frame stories are far less cliche than "hero saves world from ancient evil" story that are told by most RPGs today.

#15
RagingCyclone

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txgoldrush wrote...

RagingCyclone wrote...

Um...hate to burst the bubble, but the characters in DA2 were just as cliched as the one's in DAO..And the devs said before release that the framed narrative was inspired by The Usual Suspects. Nice try at bashing...but you fell far short.


Do DAII characterss fit into common archtypes...yes, HOWEVER, they are not characters (outside of some) recycled from past Bioware characters.

And the Usual Suspects wasn't the first to have a frame narrative either. Frame narratives, espacially the style Bioware used for DAO, is very uncommon and highly unique for VIDEO GAME RPGS. You can't argue that biographical frame stories are far less cliche than "hero saves world from ancient evil" story that are told by most RPGs today.


Exactly what I was saying, thanks for backing me up. ;)  As much as you wanted to harp that DAO was cliched and DA2 was not (I said both are)...you just made the point that DA2 is also cliched. Thank you for the validation.

#16
txgoldrush

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RagingCyclone wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

RagingCyclone wrote...

Um...hate to burst the bubble, but the characters in DA2 were just as cliched as the one's in DAO..And the devs said before release that the framed narrative was inspired by The Usual Suspects. Nice try at bashing...but you fell far short.


Do DAII characterss fit into common archtypes...yes, HOWEVER, they are not characters (outside of some) recycled from past Bioware characters.

And the Usual Suspects wasn't the first to have a frame narrative either. Frame narratives, espacially the style Bioware used for DAO, is very uncommon and highly unique for VIDEO GAME RPGS. You can't argue that biographical frame stories are far less cliche than "hero saves world from ancient evil" story that are told by most RPGs today.


Exactly what I was saying, thanks for backing me up. ;)  As much as you wanted to harp that DAO was cliched and DA2 was not (I said both are)...you just made the point that DA2 is also cliched. Thank you for the validation.


and look at my first post again....

"While Biowares other games do have their cliches, at least the plot as a whole or the world has some originality. DAO lacks this."

The issue is that DAO is TOO CLICHED. You might want to read my post before you post.

#17
Foolsfolly

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The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

my Dwarf Noble couldn't become king of Orzammar. That's my primary gripe with DAO's story. That's the biggest flaw for me.


True. But my Dwarf Noble's son might follow Bhelen... you know if Bhelen doesn't kill him first. I wish there was a way to enforce a nice "Don't kill my son!" When he adopts him.

Which is better?

A) Completly random sideuests

or

B) Sidequests that deal with elements of the games plot and themes.


You see, the sidequests are optional, BUT THEY DEAL WITH THE MAIN PLOT OR THEMES.


Ok, first off if a quest deals with the main plot it is not a side quest. Fact.

If a side quest deals with the themes of the larger game that's fine and dandy. DA:O which you bash for its side quests had a quest where you stole Loghain's crown, where you helped a Bann fight off a small group of Loghain's men, and generally had side quests that took place within the themes of major plot points without being required.

Here's the fun thing about side quest.

They're not the main quest.

That's their appeal. Morrowind had hundreds of quests for different organizations, each town, each city, and even small farms with one or two NPCs in them. The main quest was large but a vast majority of the game did not deal with it.

And it was GREAT.

Oblivion did the same and even had a greater focus on the organizations all having their own quests (I liked the Dark Brotherhood storyline better than the game's main storyline).

And Fallout 3's side quests are great! You have a dark and sad main storyline (until Broken Steel DLC) and then you have side quests like the one town who's got an Iron Man-like superhero fighting a Supervillain who controls Ants. That in and of itself was awesome. Then you go to the comic book place in DC which gives insight into why that villain is there "Attacking" that town.

There's that town where the kids who are kicked out of the caverns go to. Super mutants are kidnapping them and turning them into super mutants. You arrive and train them based on your stregnths and defend that village from super mutants. Completely unnessary to the plot and yet I felt such accomplishment there.

These side quests are places to role play your character, to level up, get loot and gear, and take a breath away from the main story. That's their point. Because sometimes you don't want to constantly rush through the main story, you just want to help an old woman get a violin, or free a bunch of slaves (or enslave them and break their spirits).

Side quests are great because they're side quests. They can have the themes of the core game in them but even if they don't they're great because of that. And if they're involved in the quest then they're optional objectives and not side quests. Like break in, steal 800 coins from the treasure room, and if you can frame it on the butler. Framing the butler isn't its own quest because it's part of a larger required quest... in this hypothetical quest in a game.

We need to be able to frame people for crimes we commit in DA3.

#18
txgoldrush

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Foolsfolly wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

my Dwarf Noble couldn't become king of Orzammar. That's my primary gripe with DAO's story. That's the biggest flaw for me.


True. But my Dwarf Noble's son might follow Bhelen... you know if Bhelen doesn't kill him first. I wish there was a way to enforce a nice "Don't kill my son!" When he adopts him.

Which is better?

A) Completly random sideuests

or

B) Sidequests that deal with elements of the games plot and themes.




You see, the sidequests are optional, BUT THEY DEAL WITH THE MAIN PLOT OR THEMES.


Ok, first off if a quest deals with the main plot it is not a side quest. Fact.

If a side quest deals with the themes of the larger game that's fine and dandy. DA:O which you bash for its side quests had a quest where you stole Loghain's crown, where you helped a Bann fight off a small group of Loghain's men, and generally had side quests that took place within the themes of major plot points without being required.

Here's the fun thing about side quest.

They're not the main quest.

That's their appeal. Morrowind had hundreds of quests for different organizations, each town, each city, and even small farms with one or two NPCs in them. The main quest was large but a vast majority of the game did not deal with it.

And it was GREAT.

Oblivion did the same and even had a greater focus on the organizations all having their own quests (I liked the Dark Brotherhood storyline better than the game's main storyline).

And Fallout 3's side quests are great! You have a dark and sad main storyline (until Broken Steel DLC) and then you have side quests like the one town who's got an Iron Man-like superhero fighting a Supervillain who controls Ants. That in and of itself was awesome. Then you go to the comic book place in DC which gives insight into why that villain is there "Attacking" that town.

There's that town where the kids who are kicked out of the caverns go to. Super mutants are kidnapping them and turning them into super mutants. You arrive and train them based on your stregnths and defend that village from super mutants. Completely unnessary to the plot and yet I felt such accomplishment there.

These side quests are places to role play your character, to level up, get loot and gear, and take a breath away from the main story. That's their point. Because sometimes you don't want to constantly rush through the main story, you just want to help an old woman get a violin, or free a bunch of slaves (or enslave them and break their spirits).

Side quests are great because they're side quests. They can have the themes of the core game in them but even if they don't they're great because of that. And if they're involved in the quest then they're optional objectives and not side quests. Like break in, steal 800 coins from the treasure room, and if you can frame it on the butler. Framing the butler isn't its own quest because it's part of a larger required quest... in this hypothetical quest in a game.

We need to be able to frame people for crimes we commit in DA3.


And Bethesda games in general aren't well written. They are not really known for story, more for exploration and gameplay. And Oblivion was really a collection of short stories.

DAO's side quests were weak as well, especially compared to the story driven DAII ones. And the vast majority of side quests, especially ones in Denerim, are random. There are some that are more plot oriented, however, most dealt with the area the player is in, than the story.

Now lets compare Fallout 3 to Fallout New Vegas. Fallout 3's sidequests were entirely random and really, for the most part, they lacked connection with eachother. They have no common theme. And many were completely stupid, like the comic book one, and blowing up Megaton. Oasis was pure fans service.

New Vegas's sidequests are not only far better written, but they tie in either with the main plot, or the central themes of the factional fighting of New Vegas. Many deal with the factional politics of the region. This extends to the DLC with Ulysses in Lonesome Road. Even Honest Hearts dealt with the Vegas struggle. The NCR has a ton of sidequests, Caesar has his as well, so do the Followers, and the Brotherhood of Steel. And many deal with impacting a rival faction. Look at the Khans, their main quest deals with their alliance with Caesar's Legion. And I have problems with Lonesome Road, but its strength is that it completely summed up New Vegas well, the Bear and the Bull's conflicts do not represnted the America Ulysses believed in.

Then compare Fallout 3 companions with New Vegas's......New Vegas's companions were far less random, had far better stories, and especially CONNECTED with the world, the themes, and the plot far better.

And why is the New Vegas style far better than the Fallout 3 style...because it helps create a far more connected and far more believable world. Fallout 3 was random and disorganized. New Vegas was interconnected and life like. Not to mention the far superior faction reputation system and the fact that one quest can hurt or even shut off another quest.

And really, other than DAO, Fallout 3 is the most overrated RPG this gen...and the writing quality is easily the worst in the series.

Modifié par txgoldrush, 01 octobre 2011 - 07:47 .


#19
Sacred_Fantasy

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txgoldrush wrote...

RagingCyclone wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

RagingCyclone wrote...

Um...hate to burst the bubble, but the characters in DA2 were just as cliched as the one's in DAO..And the devs said before release that the framed narrative was inspired by The Usual Suspects. Nice try at bashing...but you fell far short.


Do DAII characterss fit into common archtypes...yes, HOWEVER, they are not characters (outside of some) recycled from past Bioware characters.

And the Usual Suspects wasn't the first to have a frame narrative either. Frame narratives, espacially the style Bioware used for DAO, is very uncommon and highly unique for VIDEO GAME RPGS. You can't argue that biographical frame stories are far less cliche than "hero saves world from ancient evil" story that are told by most RPGs today.


Exactly what I was saying, thanks for backing me up. ;)  As much as you wanted to harp that DAO was cliched and DA2 was not (I said both are)...you just made the point that DA2 is also cliched. Thank you for the validation.


and look at my first post again....

"While Biowares other games do have their cliches, at least the plot as a whole or the world has some originality. DAO lacks this."

The issue is that DAO is TOO CLICHED. You might want to read my post before you post.

Originality? LOl. Don't make me laugh. DA 2 trying fedex quest as it main plot in Act 1 is just like Courier did in Fallout New Vegas. The power struggle between political fractions is not so rare as you put it. Fallout New Vegas did the same theme. One of world best classical novel, The Three Muskeeter is more compelling and has more twist when detailing the political struggle between the Cardinals side and The Royal Guard, the Musketeers side than DA 2 did. Shakepear's Macbeth also deals with Rise to Power and political struggle theme with MacBeth and the King. 

Everything you wrote in your OP is what DA 2 is doing which make me believe your thread is about bashing DA2 instead of DAO. LOL. 

Modifié par Sacred_Fantasy, 01 octobre 2011 - 07:54 .


#20
txgoldrush

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Sacred_Fantasy wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

RagingCyclone wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

RagingCyclone wrote...

Um...hate to burst the bubble, but the characters in DA2 were just as cliched as the one's in DAO..And the devs said before release that the framed narrative was inspired by The Usual Suspects. Nice try at bashing...but you fell far short.


Do DAII characterss fit into common archtypes...yes, HOWEVER, they are not characters (outside of some) recycled from past Bioware characters.

And the Usual Suspects wasn't the first to have a frame narrative either. Frame narratives, espacially the style Bioware used for DAO, is very uncommon and highly unique for VIDEO GAME RPGS. You can't argue that biographical frame stories are far less cliche than "hero saves world from ancient evil" story that are told by most RPGs today.


Exactly what I was saying, thanks for backing me up. ;)  As much as you wanted to harp that DAO was cliched and DA2 was not (I said both are)...you just made the point that DA2 is also cliched. Thank you for the validation.


and look at my first post again....

"While Biowares other games do have their cliches, at least the plot as a whole or the world has some originality. DAO lacks this."

The issue is that DAO is TOO CLICHED. You might want to read my post before you post.

Originality? LOl. Don't make me laugh. DA 2 trying fedex quest as it main plot in Act 1 is just like Courier did in Fallout New Vegas. The power struggle between political fractions is not so rare as you put it. Fallout New Vegas did the same theme. One of world best classical novel, The Three Muskeeter is more compelling and has more twist when detailing the political struggle between the Cardinals side and The Royal Guard, the Musketeers side than DA 2 did. Shakepear's Macbeth is also deals with Rise to Power and political struggle theme with MacBeth and the King.

Everything you wrote in your OP is what DA 2 is doing which make me believe your thread is about bashing DA2 instead of DAO. LOL. 


And you are still missing the entire point....

If you take fiction as a whole, DAII isn't that original HOWEVER, for a FANTASY VIDEO GAME RPG, its more original and unique.

DAO, is just like almost every video game in the past where you are the hero and you have to stop the ancient evil. DAO is in common with thousands of RPGs that have the same plot, DAII isn't.

And how many RPGs deal with the innocence of the protagonist in a frame story fashion for the entire game?

ZERO

Not to mention the fact of DAO recycling the plots and characters of past Bioware games.

Modifié par txgoldrush, 01 octobre 2011 - 07:56 .


#21
Sacred_Fantasy

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txgoldrush wrote...

Sacred_Fantasy wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

RagingCyclone wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

RagingCyclone wrote...

Um...hate to burst the bubble, but the characters in DA2 were just as cliched as the one's in DAO..And the devs said before release that the framed narrative was inspired by The Usual Suspects. Nice try at bashing...but you fell far short.


Do DAII characterss fit into common archtypes...yes, HOWEVER, they are not characters (outside of some) recycled from past Bioware characters.

And the Usual Suspects wasn't the first to have a frame narrative either. Frame narratives, espacially the style Bioware used for DAO, is very uncommon and highly unique for VIDEO GAME RPGS. You can't argue that biographical frame stories are far less cliche than "hero saves world from ancient evil" story that are told by most RPGs today.


Exactly what I was saying, thanks for backing me up. ;)  As much as you wanted to harp that DAO was cliched and DA2 was not (I said both are)...you just made the point that DA2 is also cliched. Thank you for the validation.


and look at my first post again....

"While Biowares other games do have their cliches, at least the plot as a whole or the world has some originality. DAO lacks this."

The issue is that DAO is TOO CLICHED. You might want to read my post before you post.

Originality? LOl. Don't make me laugh. DA 2 trying fedex quest as it main plot in Act 1 is just like Courier did in Fallout New Vegas. The power struggle between political fractions is not so rare as you put it. Fallout New Vegas did the same theme. One of world best classical novel, The Three Muskeeter is more compelling and has more twist when detailing the political struggle between the Cardinals side and The Royal Guard, the Musketeers side than DA 2 did. Shakepear's Macbeth is also deals with Rise to Power and political struggle theme with MacBeth and the King.

Everything you wrote in your OP is what DA 2 is doing which make me believe your thread is about bashing DA2 instead of DAO. LOL. 


And you are still missing the entire point....

If you take fiction as a whole, DAII isn't that original HOWEVER, for a FANTASY VIDEO GAME RPG, its more original and unique.

DAO, is just like almost every video game in the past where you are the hero and you have to stop the ancient evil. DAO is in common with thousands of RPGs that have the same plot, DAII isn't. Might as well compare DAO with the first two Warcraft games.

And how many RPGs deal with the innonce of the protagonist in aframe story fashion?

ZERO

Drakensang use frame narrative. Assassin's Creeds also use frame narrative. Aren't those two were just released not long ago?

Frame narrative is not uncommon. I've read frame narrative based story as earlier as the Calls of Cthulu. Many other story however sucked so much that very few frame narrative actually won anything. Check out any movies. Majority of them don't use frame narrative as mean of storytelling. Why? Because it's plot jump here and there like monkey, isn't going to help your audience to immerse themselves with the depth of your story. It's disconnecting your audience.  But if it's done well, it could be amazing. Something DA2 isn't capable due to time constraint and/or technology. 

Modifié par Sacred_Fantasy, 01 octobre 2011 - 08:04 .


#22
txgoldrush

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Sacred_Fantasy wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

Sacred_Fantasy wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

RagingCyclone wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

RagingCyclone wrote...

Um...hate to burst the bubble, but the characters in DA2 were just as cliched as the one's in DAO..And the devs said before release that the framed narrative was inspired by The Usual Suspects. Nice try at bashing...but you fell far short.


Do DAII characterss fit into common archtypes...yes, HOWEVER, they are not characters (outside of some) recycled from past Bioware characters.

And the Usual Suspects wasn't the first to have a frame narrative either. Frame narratives, espacially the style Bioware used for DAO, is very uncommon and highly unique for VIDEO GAME RPGS. You can't argue that biographical frame stories are far less cliche than "hero saves world from ancient evil" story that are told by most RPGs today.


Exactly what I was saying, thanks for backing me up. ;)  As much as you wanted to harp that DAO was cliched and DA2 was not (I said both are)...you just made the point that DA2 is also cliched. Thank you for the validation.


and look at my first post again....

"While Biowares other games do have their cliches, at least the plot as a whole or the world has some originality. DAO lacks this."

The issue is that DAO is TOO CLICHED. You might want to read my post before you post.

Originality? LOl. Don't make me laugh. DA 2 trying fedex quest as it main plot in Act 1 is just like Courier did in Fallout New Vegas. The power struggle between political fractions is not so rare as you put it. Fallout New Vegas did the same theme. One of world best classical novel, The Three Muskeeter is more compelling and has more twist when detailing the political struggle between the Cardinals side and The Royal Guard, the Musketeers side than DA 2 did. Shakepear's Macbeth is also deals with Rise to Power and political struggle theme with MacBeth and the King.

Everything you wrote in your OP is what DA 2 is doing which make me believe your thread is about bashing DA2 instead of DAO. LOL. 


And you are still missing the entire point....

If you take fiction as a whole, DAII isn't that original HOWEVER, for a FANTASY VIDEO GAME RPG, its more original and unique.

DAO, is just like almost every video game in the past where you are the hero and you have to stop the ancient evil. DAO is in common with thousands of RPGs that have the same plot, DAII isn't. Might as well compare DAO with the first two Warcraft games.

And how many RPGs deal with the innonce of the protagonist in aframe story fashion?

ZERO

Drakensang use frame narrative. Assassin's Creeds also use frame narrative. Aren't those two were just released not long ago?

Frame narrative is not uncommon. I've read frame narrative based story as earlier as the Calls of Cthulu. Many other story however sucked so much that very few frame narrative actually won anything. Check at any movies. Majority of them don't use frame narrative as mean of storytelling. Why? Because it's plot jump here and there like monkey, isn't going to help your audience to immerse themselves with the depth of your story. It's disconnecting your audience.  But if it's done well, it could be amazing. Something DA2 isn't capable due to time constraint and/or technology. 


And Assassin's Creeds use of it is incredibly unique but much different from DAII. And its not really the frame narrative that is unique of DAII in the realm of fantasy RPGs, its the story on how the main character is not responsible for the current dilemma...its the use of the frame narrative to exonerate a character who is not present in the outside frame.

And for the most part, the frame narrative in DAII is done well, its just that people do not pay attention to the Varric and Cassnadra conversations. They really define the story and themes of the game.

Modifié par txgoldrush, 01 octobre 2011 - 08:11 .


#23
Sacred_Fantasy

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txgoldrush wrote...
its the story on how the main character is not responsible for the current dilemma...its the use of the frame narrative to exonerate a character who is not present in the outside frame.

That's why it is DA2 huge problem. In Role Playing concept, you need to have a character, goal and motivation to role-play. If the character does not exist outside the frame than it's what's the purpose of playing such character?  What's the motivation? How would you make sense of it in term of character own perception since he actually doesn't exist.

txgoldrush wrote...
And for the most part, the frame narrative in DAII is done well, its just that people do not pay attention to the Varric and Cassnadra conversations. They really define the story and themes of the game.

Hahaha. I agree. It's done so well that people don't pay attention to it. Hahaha. Nor do some people care about their own character.. 

Modifié par Sacred_Fantasy, 01 octobre 2011 - 08:17 .


#24
Weskerr

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I agree with the OP about the atypical style of story telling in DA2. It's a refreshing change from
good vs.evil to human struggle vs. human struggle in a video game although I think DE: HR achieved the same thing.

Edit: However hackneyed and unoriginal DA: O was, however, it was still well done.

Modifié par Weskerr, 01 octobre 2011 - 08:23 .


#25
txgoldrush

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Sacred_Fantasy wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...
its the story on how the main character is not responsible for the current dilemma...its the use of the frame narrative to exonerate a character who is not present in the outside frame.

That's why it is DA2 huge problem. In Role Playing concept, you need to have a character, goal and motivation to role-play. If the character does not exist outside the frame than it's what's the purpose of playing such character?  What's the motivation? How would you make sense of it in term of character own perception since he actually doesn't exist.

txgoldrush wrote...
And for the most part, the frame narrative in DAII is done well, its just that people do not pay attention to the Varric and Cassnadra conversations. They really define the story and themes of the game.

Hahaha. I agree. It's done so well that people don't pay attention to it. Hahaha. Nor do some people care about their own character.. 


And role playing concept is not as narrow as you define it...it doesn't have specific rules. The character may exist outside the frame, as he or she is the focus of Cassandra's search. He or she is the focus of the frame narrative despite him or her not being physically outside of the frame.

And the purpose of playing the character is to figure out what happened.

Gamers simply do not pay attention to stories, especially if they are unconventional. They expect everything to be traditionally told and epic, like DAO. Its not.