267 réponses à ce sujet

[Il Divo]

simfamSP wrote...

How so? But in anycase. The cliche was done great, that's what made it so damned good. The series started with a bang. Origns was a great way to introduce us to Thedas. It made the world feel grand, thus giving us this 'high fantasy' plot to work with, and adding the four more 'down to earth' sub plots with it. Dragon Age 2 could have been great as it removed it's self from that cliche, but sadly, unlike DA:O it wasn't done as well.

Primarily because most of the narrative is concerned about sending the Warden around Thedas to recruit an army, which results in the player getting caught up in any number of side stories. Star Wars is a great example of a Save the World/galaxy type of story. The problem with Origins is that the the side stories eventually overpower the main narrative being told. After Ostagar, it's not really about the Darkspawn anymore; they're just an excuse to send us around Thedas. It's about deciding a Dwarven King, killing abominations, etc.

Modifié par Il Divo, 09 octobre 2011 - 06:37 .

[billy the squid]

Il Divo wrote...

simfamSP wrote...

How so? But in anycase. The cliche was done great, that's what made it so damned good. The series started with a bang. Origns was a great way to introduce us to Thedas. It made the world feel grand, thus giving us this 'high fantasy' plot to work with, and adding the four more 'down to earth' sub plots with it. Dragon Age 2 could have been great as it removed it's self from that cliche, but sadly, unlike DA:O it wasn't done as well.

Primarily because most of the narrative is concerned about sending the Warden around Thedas to recruit an army, which results in the player getting caught up in any number of side stories. Star Wars is a great example of a Save the World/galaxy type of story. The problem with Origins is that the the side stories eventually overpower the main narrative being told. After Ostagar, it's not really about the Darkspawn anymore. It's about deciding a Dwarven King, killing abominations, etc.

It was actually the main problem of DAO's plot, The Blight should be an ever present danger, becoming more oppressive and the effect of the Blight should be more accutely felt as one progresses in the quests. It doesn't seem to happen, if it was intertwined more with the various quests than it would have been better.

[Il Divo]

billy the squid wrote...

It was actually the main problem of DAO's plot, The Blight should be an ever present danger, becoming more oppressive and the effect of the Blight should be more accutely felt as one progresses in the quests. It doesn't seem to happen, if it was intertwined more with the various quests than it would have been better.

Agreed. They could have gotten away with it if the Blight's danger increased throughout the storyline, which would have required more than just fighting darkspawn in the Deep Roads. The problem is that (literally) the danger is never felt. The Darkspawn army just waits for the player to finish recruiting his army, with no actual threat to worry about.

Modifié par Il Divo, 09 octobre 2011 - 06:53 .

[Il Divo]

simfamSP wrote...

The danger is never felt because we hardly move into areas that are close to the horde. We move north whilst the danger is south. We are never sent to Gwaren or maybe to other areas were the blight is effected since there is no need to go there.

But more effort could have been made in the Brecillian forest. A lot of games fail to do this though. Since it's not their main focus. Bioware's main focus was to write those four plots. The rest was all done via 'rumours.'

And that's the problem. I'm not arguing that Bioware's plotline for "Saving the World" was illogical. I'm arguing that it was a very weak way of going about a central narrative. They should have found a way so that we (the players) are doing more with the prime enemy than just killing mooks. If Bioware couldn't do that with the four plot points, then imo they should not have written those plots and instead should have sent us into those areas closer to the Horde.

Modifié par Il Divo, 09 octobre 2011 - 11:31 .

[Il Divo]

simfamSP wrote...

They (assuming you mean Bioware) send us around Thedas in this glorified fetch quest is the whole point of introducing you to the plot. The Darkspawn merely serve as a motive. That's what DA2 lacked, a motive. In Origins your motives are the darkspawn, and your reasons for 'saving the world' is very many.

The blight endagers everything. You can't controll it. That's why saving the world to your character can be saving the world to mine. Your motives are your own, that's whats great about silent protagonists.They might do something 'good' in the eyes of the 3rd person party, but their reasons for doing so might be completley selfish.

But the problem isn't motivation. As you say, motivation should remain up to the player. The fetch quest however doesn't further the plot, because the plot's put on hold until the Landsmeet. I understand that we're saving the World in Origins, but how the game has me saving the world is very lackluster. There are no plot points after Ostagar and before the Landsmeet. Essentially, you can condense the army fetch quests down to Redcliffe and the player won't miss any important plot details. That's why Origins is more of a glorified fetch quest than it is about saving the world.  

Modifié par Il Divo, 09 octobre 2011 - 11:12 .

[In Exile]

simfamSP wrote...
How so? But in anycase. The cliche was done great, that's what made it so damned good. The series started with a bang. Origns was a great way to introduce us to Thedas. It made the world feel grand, thus giving us this 'high fantasy' plot to work with, and adding the four more 'down to earth' sub plots with it. Dragon Age 2 could have been great as it removed it's self from that cliche, but sadly, unlike DA:O it wasn't done as well.

Il Divo explained it pretty well. Basically, DA:O spins its wheels after Ostagar. We - effectively - learn or advance nothing between the Flemeth's Hut and the Landsmeet. We "gather an army" sure, but it turns out that army doesn't even play a role and the whole process is just about straight-up killing the archdemon. 

simfamSP wrote...
They (assuming you mean Bioware) send us around Thedas in this glorified fetch quest is the whole point of introducing you to the plot. The Darkspawn merely serve as a motive. That's what DA2 lacked, a motive. In Origins your motives are the darkspawn, and your reasons for 'saving the world' is very many.

The darkspawn were a very bad motive. DA2's motive was Hawke gaining status for the surviving family, then staying for Kirkwall/friends. But that was also a bad motive. DA2's problem was that, for most people, Bioware's threadbare motive was just not something that hooked them.

But the structure is the same. 

There is a major complaint that DA2 never gave Hawke a reason to stay in Kirkwall... but the whole point was for the player to invent it, like in DA:O. But people didn't care. Which is the same structural issue with DA:O, except that people cared about stopping the darkspawn. But if your whole design depends on whether your audience likes making up a motive when you provide none, it's bad design. And that's Bioware's standard take on character freedom. 

All I'm saying tha this 'save the world plot' merely serves as a backdrop for your characters motives. The four inner sub plots are what make Origins original. Your character develops through these 4 stages whilst his utmost motive might stay the same or change.
I might save a woman from a physcotic murderer and can be seen as a hero. But my real intentions were to save her and get some lustful reward later. 

I hope you know where I'm heading at [smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/smile.png[/smilie]

DA2 did the same thing. You have to care about staying in Kirkwall and/or helping the party. In DA:O, you have to care about saving Ferelden. You can make up whatever reason you want, But Thou Must anyway. 

Modifié par In Exile, 09 octobre 2011 - 11:33 .

[Fast Jimmy]

I'd rather have four strong sub plots that loosely tie into the main plot than have twenty sub plots that barely are connected, whilst there is no main plot as seen in DA2.

However, if we are ordering from a menu... I agree, having open ended sub plots that tie into the main plot while also vary depending on the time performed, giving a sense of urgency, would be interesting.

For instance, what if the Brecillian Forest changed, with some of the Sylvans becoming Corrupted by the taint later in the game, making them ridiculously impossible to fight? Or the Deep Roads, being mostly cleared out during the later stage of the Blight, would be a cake walk as the last quest?

Applicable only to Origins, of course. But that line of reasoning applied to whatever the DA3 plot is.

My desire is to NOT have the main plot be Templar vs. Mage. It can (and needs to be) done in DA3, but don't have that as the driving factor. Touch on the MYRIAD of other topics that are neither Mage/Templar or Darkspawn (since Bioware apparently doesn't like this topic anymore) like Morrigan and Flemeth, the Dwarves' plight in the Deep Roads and their recent king change, the Kossith/Qunari imminent invasion, the Orlesian and Tevinter empires roles in the world at large, the nature of the Black City and the True Andraste, the host of mysteries about Kirkwall's dubious magical history, the reason behind the return of the dragons, the Dwarven primeval thaig's significance and the presence of corrupted lyrium, the Dalish trying to establish a homeland and a cultural identity, the Golems of Orzamar, the Golems of Amgarak, the cruel nature of Chevalier's and their unpopularity by the common folk of Orlais, the Crows... I'm sure there is a random plot tangent I haven't listed here, but please Bioware... don't shove anymore Mage/Templar down our throat. It was cool in Broken Circle... now it is played out beyond belief.

I realize it has to be addressed, but I honestly would prefer every single one of the other plot points to have a bigger role in DA3 than more of what was done in DA2.

Modifié par Fast Jimmy, 09 octobre 2011 - 11:38 .

[Il Divo]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

I'd rather have four strong sub plots that loosely tie into the main plot than have twenty sub plots that barely are connected, whilst there is no sub plot as seen in DA2.

However, if we are ordering from a menu... I agree, having open ended sub plots that tie into the main plot while also vary depending on the time performed, giving a sense of urgency, would be interesting.

For instance, what if the Brecillian Forest changed, with some of the Sylvans becoming Corrupted by the taint later in the game, making them ridiculously impossible to fight? Or the Deep Roads, being mostly cleared out during the later stage of the Blight, would be a cake walk as the last quest?

Applicable only to Origins, of course. But that line of reasoning applied to whatever the DA3 plot is.

Basically the Alpha Protocol treatment. Which I think is a pretty decent set up. The closest I think Bioware has ever come to this is changing a single line of dialogue if you choose to rescue Liara last in Mass Effect. Not quite the level we would want it at though.

Modifié par Il Divo, 09 octobre 2011 - 11:39 .

[MingWolf]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

My desire is to NOT have the main plot be Templar vs. Mage. It can (and needs to be) done in DA3, but don't have that as the driving factor. Touch on the MYRIAD of other topics that are neither Mage/Templar or Darkspawn (since Bioware apparently doesn't like this topic anymore) like Morrigan and Flemeth, the Dwarves' plight in the Deep Roads and their recent king change, the Kossith/Qunari imminent invasion, the Orlesian and Tevinter empires roles in the world at large, the nature of the Black City and the True Andraste, the host of mysteries about Kirkwall's dubious magical history, the reason behind the return of the dragons, the Dwarven primeval thaig's significance and the presence of corrupted lyrium, the Dalish trying to establish a homeland and a cultural identity, the Golems of Orzamar, the Golems of Amgarak, the cruel nature of Chevalier's and their unpopularity by the common folk of Orlais, the Crows... I'm sure there is a random plot tangent I haven't listed here, but please Bioware... don't shove anymore Mage/Templar down our throat. It was cool in Broken Circle... now it is played out beyond belief.

I realize it has to be addressed, but I honestly would prefer every single one of the other plot points to have a bigger role in DA3 than more of what was done in DA2.

I would second this.  Part of the problem with this particular plot (Mage vs. Templar) is that it really stretches narrative beyond belief, where it doesn't connect to me as the player in an emotional, philosophical, or meaningful way.  There was too much of a dichotomy between the two factions, and both mages and templars were so fanatically rooted to their respective factions that it almost seems as though the people who made up the factions simply didn't have minds of their own.  As someone previously mentioned, the ending consisted of everyone going "retard," or at least, it certainly felt that way. 

[Fast Jimmy]

Il Divo wrote...

Basically the Alpha Protocol treatment. Which I think is a pretty decent set up. The closest I think Bioware has ever come to this is changing a single line of dialogue if you choose to rescue Liara last in Mass Effect. Not quite the level we would want it at though.

I found that one out accidentally when I wanted to see how Liara would piece all of the pieces together to find Ilos in just one post-mission briefing. It was pretty funny, although a little disturbing... starvation humor! Don't see that often.

[Fast Jimmy]

MingWolf wrote...

I would second this.  Part of the problem with this particular plot (Mage vs. Templar) is that it really stretches narrative beyond belief, where it doesn't connect to me as the player in an emotional, philosophical, or meaningful way.  There was too much of a dichotomy between the two factions, and both mages and templars were so fanatically rooted to their respective factions that it almost seems as though the people who made up the factions simply didn't have minds of their own.  As someone previously mentioned, the ending consisted of everyone going "retard," or at least, it certainly felt that way. 

Yep. Sociopaths or psychos, I believe I heard someone throw around. I'd rather have sane, rational and believable members than have everyone be blatantly evil.

[Reaverwind]

billy the squid wrote...

It was actually the main problem of DAO's plot, The Blight should be an ever present danger, becoming more oppressive and the effect of the Blight should be more accutely felt as one progresses in the quests. It doesn't seem to happen, if it was intertwined more with the various quests than it would have been better.

That was one of my major gripes with DA:O. Not only should the Blight have been a constant danger, it should have had an impact on the recruitment questlines themselves. The way Lothering was handled was a nice start, but Bioware should have taken it further. We should have seen progessively fewer Darkspawn (and more of something else) in the Deep Roads the longer we put off the Orzammer questline. We should have seen more Darkspawn invading the Brecillian forest later in the game. It's unfortunate that Bioware doesn't address this sort of problem in DA2 - in fact, imo, they went from bad to worse.

Fast Jimmy wrote...

MingWolf wrote...

I
would second this.  Part of the problem with this particular plot (Mage
vs. Templar) is that it really stretches narrative beyond belief, where
it doesn't connect to me as the player in an emotional, philosophical,
or meaningful way.  There was too much of a dichotomy between the two
factions, and both mages and templars were so fanatically rooted to
their respective factions that it almost seems as though the people who
made up the factions simply didn't have minds of their own.  As someone
previously mentioned, the ending consisted of everyone going "retard,"
or at least, it certainly felt that way. 

Yep.
Sociopaths or psychos, I believe I heard someone throw around. I'd
rather have sane, rational and believable members than have everyone be
blatantly evil.

That was me. And it irked me to no end when Hawke was railroaded into spouting propaganda for one side or the other, especially when the situation didn't call for it. I really wished for option C: "Kill 'em all and let the Maker sort 'em out."

Modifié par Reaverwind, 10 octobre 2011 - 12:23 .