267 réponses à ce sujet

[Sacred_Fantasy]

txgoldrush wrote...

Sacred_Fantasy wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...
its the story on how the main character is not responsible for the current dilemma...its the use of the frame narrative to exonerate a character who is not present in the outside frame.

That's why it is DA2 huge problem. In Role Playing concept, you need to have a character, goal and motivation to role-play. If the character does not exist outside the frame than it's what's the purpose of playing such character?  What's the motivation? How would you make sense of it in term of character own perception since he actually doesn't exist.

txgoldrush wrote...
And for the most part, the frame narrative in DAII is done well, its just that people do not pay attention to the Varric and Cassnadra conversations. They really define the story and themes of the game.

Hahaha. I agree. It's done so well that people don't pay attention to it. Hahaha. Nor do some people care about their own character.. 

And role playing concept is not as narrow as you define it...it doesn't have specific rules. The character may exist outside the frame, as he or she is the focus of Cassandra's search. He or she is the focus of the frame narrative despite him or her not being physically outside of the frame.

And the purpose of playing the character is to figure out what happened.

Gamers simply do not pay attention to stories, especially if they are unconventional. They expect everything to be traditionally told and epic, like DAO. Its not.

Believe in anything you want. I only interested in 3 things; Role, Character and Story. None of this exist. You  don't assume Hawke's role. You assume no one role. Your don't have a character. Your Character is "gone". Your story is not your story. It's about Varric and Cassandra story. And this is exactly why you don't have a story for yourself.

txgoldrush wrote...
And the purpose of playing the character is to figure out what happened.

Who are you? Cassandra? or third person reviewer who has no idea what is his/her own role in the story? I know,  Hawke is not playing the game to figure out what happen to himself. Because it's ridiculous.

txgoldrush wrote...
Gamers simply do not pay attention to stories, especially if they are unconventional. They expect everything to be traditionally told and epic, like DAO. Its not.

Eating sh*t is unconventional because most people expect to have traditional meals to have fun.

Modifié par Sacred_Fantasy, 01 octobre 2011 - 10:10 .

[GodWood]

Call me weird but I'll pick a well executed 'unoriginal' story over a crappy, poorly executed 'original' story any day.

[Salaya]

 The only true flaw you mention is the "unoriginal" concept of the plot. And, given the well executed story in origins, such flaw is almost irrelevant. When it comes to narrative, execution, presentation and development are more important than the content itself. Or, at least, that's what I think and I've been taught to.

And that thing about companions... the connection with the plot is there, wheter you see it or not. I mean, Zevran is an assasin hired by one of the nemesis to kill the Warden. Have you played FFIX? Rings any bells? The same for the rest.

Also, even if your post has some DA2 content, the clear idea of bashing DAO, does not make this thread part o Origins forum? 

[Jerrybnsn]

I think txgoldrush unwittingly nailed this on the head about DAII's biggest problem. The whole story is played out like a bunch of simple sidequests, short dlcs, and has no plotline. As far as DAO being cliched, I say it followed the traditional epic story telling of introduction to hero and plotline, four main quests that relates to the plotline, a climax and then a conclusion. Every story teller follows this formula because having an introduction to a character and plotline gives the audience a chance to care about the hero and his/her quest.

Every story has a hero, whether your doing a drama, comedy, coming of age, crime/detective, horror, of a highend fantasy like Origins. Hawk was a controversial hero for DAII because he was given no plotline, just a bunch of sidequests. And this is a bigger reason why DAII wasn't well received rather than "recycled maps".

[furryrage59]

Wrong forum.

This should be titled lets look at the VAST amount of story flaws in DA:2 and not re-inplement them in any game, on any platform, ever!!!

Your delusional hatred of the better game does make me chuckle though. You try so very hard.

[Herr Uhl]

Jerrybnsn wrote...

Every story has a hero, whether your doing a drama, comedy, coming of age, crime/detective, horror, of a highend fantasy like Origins. Hawk was a controversial hero for DAII because he was given no plotline, just a bunch of sidequests. And this is a bigger reason why DAII wasn't well received rather than "recycled maps".

No, they don't.

[Jerrybnsn]

Herr Uhl wrote...

Jerrybnsn wrote...

Every story has a hero, whether your doing a drama, comedy, coming of age, crime/detective, horror, of a highend fantasy like Origins. Hawk was a controversial hero for DAII because he was given no plotline, just a bunch of sidequests. And this is a bigger reason why DAII wasn't well received rather than "recycled maps".

No, they don't.

Alright. Name a story that doesn't have a hero.

[Salaya]

Jerrybnsn wrote...

...

Alright. Name a story that doesn't have a hero.

In cold blood, Truman Capote

[Jerrybnsn]

Salaya wrote...

Jerrybnsn wrote...

...

Alright. Name a story that doesn't have a hero.

In cold blood, Truman Capote

Very Interesting crime drama (had to look it up).  It seems like it is an "anti-hero" story, where you are introduce to the main characters, the killers, and their quest is to carry out gruesome murders.  So it is not a who dunnit or a will they be caught by a hero (Even though there is a the investigator  from the Kansas Burea of Investigation who apprehended the killers) but the main characters are the "anti" heroes that take up a quest.  Definitely not a feel good story.

[Salaya]

Jerrybnsn wrote...

...

Very Interesting crime drama (had to look it up).  It seems like it is an "anti-hero" story, where you are introduce to the main characters, the killers, and their quest is to carry out gruesome murders.  So it is not a who dunnit or a will they be caught by a hero (Even though there is a the investigator  from the Kansas Burea of Investigation who apprehended the killers) but the main characters are the "anti" heroes that take up a quest.  Definitely not a feel good story.

The point here is that the killers are not introduced as main characters to overcome a quest; they aren't, by all means, nothing more than secondary pawns in the whole narrative (even if they committed the killings, a fact that is treated with no meaningful consideration in the story). They would have been ani-heroes if they had "bad" traits that nonetheless served them to commit some kind of relevant quest, wich is not the case in the novel. The same, but not exactly the same, goes for the KBI investigator. 

But, of course, it's just my viewpoint

[Solmanian]

Wow, I don't think agree with any word the OP wrote, no matter how many times he wrote "you have to agree" (subliminal massage?). Maybe it was because he spent so much time baching one of the best rpg's in recent time. And went on and on about how the sequel (who recieved lower ratings across the board than the original). I like both games, but DA2 just wasn't as polished or detailed as the original: recycled dungeons, empty streets, lack of detail in the enviroment.
The OP should spend some time on tvtropes.com, I'm sure he'll love it. Using archtypes is not the same as recycling charecters. According to the OP, every game that has a "hero" is "unoriginal". Well, a game where you play a wife beating pedophile just won't apeal to the masses.

Also the freedom not to "recruit" certain individuals (even if it's the road less traveled) is more importent than tying them to the main plot artificialy. The optional companions still have opinions, but there's no need to manufacture a connection, this isn't a soap opera: we don't need leliana to be arl howe daughteror for zevran to be loghain bastard child. But maybe someone doesn't wan't to bring along the psycho nun with a "jesus told me to kill them" altitude, or maybe the player feel that the guy who butchered an entire family should stay in the cage (that issue is glosed over to easily to my taste).

Modifié par Solmanian, 01 octobre 2011 - 01:01 .

[Lentie]

txgoldrush wrote...

DAO, is just like almost every video game in the past where you are the hero and you have to stop the ancient evil. DAO is in common with thousands of RPGs that have the same plot, DAII isn't.

The originality of DAO is its origins, multiple starting.
I don't know many games that did this.

And i like to be a hero and save the world.

[Chewin]

txgoldrush wrote...
A) The entire storyline is very generic and cliched. Truly, there is nothing remotely original about the story, it is basically a typical story in too many uninspired RPGs. While Biowares other games do have their cliches, at least the plot as a whole or the world has some originality. DAO lacks this. It is a by the nubers story and extremely predictable, not to mention the typical human bad guy being a huge idiot and why we even have the story in the first place.

Loghain is not a 'typical human bad guy' nor is he a huge idiot.

You've clearly missed a lot when it comes to Loghain and his role in DA:O.

[Androme]

not sure if troll

[Joy Divison]

Did the OP really say that there are so many side quests in DA:O that it causes it to "lose all focus"?

There are many words to describe DA2 and "focused" is not one of them.

[Jerrybnsn]

Salaya wrote...

Jerrybnsn wrote...

...

Very Interesting crime drama (had to look it up). 

The point here is that the killers are not introduced as main characters to overcome a quest; they aren't, by all means, nothing more than secondary pawns in the whole narrative (even if they committed the killings, a fact that is treated with no meaningful consideration in the story). They would have been ani-heroes if they had "bad" traits that nonetheless served them to commit some kind of relevant quest, wich is not the case in the novel. The same, but not exactly the same, goes for the KBI investigator. 

But, of course, it's just my viewpoint

Does it have any main characters?  I read in an online study guide that the story first introduces you to the murders (the climax) and then goes into introducing you to the family that gets murdered and the duo that commit the deed.  I say the family is the hero aspect and the killers are the adversaries? Maybe?.  Thus the plotline to me (and according to the plot summary in the study guide) at this point would be that these two groups are " two different but inevitably intersecting paths" that lead to a gruesome murder.  So this story does have a hero/anti-hero and plotline introduced in the very first chapter that just happend to give away the climax of the story first though.

I think DAII's problem was that the gave away the "conclusion/consequences" (Thedas on the brink of war between Chantry and Circle) of the story rather than what Capote did by giving away the "climax".  All through the story of Hawk we are asking ouselves, what was motivating him to do what?  Thus Bioware was holding back the plotline by only alluding to the consequences (the conclusion).

Modifié par Jerrybnsn, 01 octobre 2011 - 02:15 .

[dheer]

GodWood wrote...
Call me weird but I'll pick a well executed 'unoriginal' story over a crappy, poorly executed 'original' story any day.

Indeed.

This thread is in the wrong section of the forums.

Modifié par dheer, 01 octobre 2011 - 02:10 .

[Pasquale1234]

Lentie wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

DAO, is just like almost every video game in the past where you are the hero and you have to stop the ancient evil. DAO is in common with thousands of RPGs that have the same plot, DAII isn't.

The originality of DAO is its origins, multiple starting.
I don't know many games that did this.

And i like to be a hero and save the world.

Me, too - or at least have some overall goal to accomplish to keep me engaged in the story and wanting to see it to completion.  I find day-to-day grindfests pretty boring and uninspired.

One of the key differences, imho, in game stories versus other forms of media.  While I can enjoy character-driven novels and movies, I'm just not interested in spending 50 hours of my time trying to role-play through such stories.  As an interactive media, I need more to do in games, longer-term objectives, and some sense of having accomplished something that matters.  DA2 did not deliver that in any way that I found remotely satisfying.  DAO delivered it on a silver platter, complete with dessert cart.

Modifié par Pasquale1234, 01 octobre 2011 - 02:30 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

Sacred_Fantasy wrote...
Drakensang use frame narrative. Assassin's Creeds also use frame narrative. Aren't those two were just released not long ago?

Now Drakensang was a good game. Oen of hte best fantasy RPG I played. I dare say I like it as much as DA:O.

[Il Divo]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Sacred_Fantasy wrote...
Drakensang use frame narrative. Assassin's Creeds also use frame narrative. Aren't those two were just released not long ago?

Now Drakensang was a good game. Oen of hte best fantasy RPG I played. I dare say I like it as much as DA:O.

Add Alpha Protocol to the framed narrative list.

On the topic: I'll take Origin's "cliche`" characters over the DA2 cast any day of the week.

[Il Divo]

Salaya wrote...

 The only true flaw you mention is the "unoriginal" concept of the plot. And, given the well executed story in origins, such flaw is almost irrelevant. When it comes to narrative, execution, presentation and development are more important than the content itself. Or, at least, that's what I think and I've been taught to.

Agreed, all around.

And that thing about companions... the connection with the plot is there, wheter you see it or not. I mean, Zevran is an assasin hired by one of the nemesis to kill the Warden. Have you played FFIX? Rings any bells? The same for the rest.

Also, even if your post has some DA2 content, the clear idea of bashing DAO, does not make this thread part o Origins forum? 

I think we need to be fair here. Zevran is introduced through the plot, however he's no more necessary to the narrative than Mission from KotOR is by opening a security door. Bioware includes these characters because they want an enjoyable, varied party for the player to explore the world with. But Zevran isn't instrumental to the storyline in the way that Alistair, Carth, or Bastila are. He is window-dressing.

[Jerrybnsn]

This is my comparisons of stories from Origins to DAII.

Introduction to Character: Origins-- Six different stories; my favorite was the eleven bride abducted./ DAII. Hawk is fleeing with his family from Darkspawn

Introduction of Plotline: Origins--You are the last of two Wardens and must stop the Blight./ DAII--Hang out in Kirkwall and make money and friends?

Main Quest to reach goal: Origins--Invoke treaties to form an army from Dalish elves, Dwarfs, Humans and defeat Loghain./ Go into the deep roads to get rich so people will stop spitting on you?

Climax--Origins: defeat the blight/ but what could sum up the DAII climax (no spoilers)?

Conclusion--Origins: Hero of Ferledan praised or eulogized/ DAII---Thedas on the brink of war/cliff hanger

Modifié par Jerrybnsn, 01 octobre 2011 - 02:53 .

[OdanUrr]

This is actually a topic that should be discussed in the DAO forums, tangential comparisons with DA2 aside.

[MorrigansLove]

GodWood wrote...

Call me weird but I'll pick a well executed 'unoriginal' story over a crappy, poorly executed 'original' story any day.

Well said, old chap. Well said, indeed.

To be honest, i've gotten over Dragon Age, now, anyway. Bioware can keep pushing out rushed sequels every year, because I don't care anymore. At least we did get one, well executed mezmerising title. Dragon Age: Origins.  I'm not glad it's over, but I am still glad it's happened.

[Herr Uhl]

Jerrybnsn wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...

Jerrybnsn wrote...

Every story has a hero, whether your doing a drama, comedy, coming of age, crime/detective, horror, of a highend fantasy like Origins. Hawk was a controversial hero for DAII because he was given no plotline, just a bunch of sidequests. And this is a bigger reason why DAII wasn't well received rather than "recycled maps".

No, they don't.

Alright. Name a story that doesn't have a hero.

The Great Gatsby.

Edit: And I'm kind of confounded by how DA2 being badly written would make DAO a masterpiece.

Modifié par Herr Uhl, 01 octobre 2011 - 04:09 .