[quote]MingWolf wrote...
[quote]txgoldrush wrote...
A) Absolutely wrong
The DAII subplots DO connect. Yes, in Act I, they are kind of disjointed, however, as soon as you get to Act's II and III, you find that these subplots are converging and interacting with eachother. Lets take Sheparding Wolves, where Patrice is trying to provoke the Qunari and The Unbridled Rescue, where the viscounts son is trying to learn the Qun from the Qunari. Now take Demands of the Qun in Act II...these plots intersect in the Chantry. The same can be said of "Best Seved Cold" in Act III which has "Act of Mercy", "Enemies Among Us" and "Wayward Son" characters. Nevermind the fact that Isabela's and Varric's companion quests in Act II deal with the plot. The plotlines start scattershot in Act I, but then they mostly converge and ones that don't are concluded properly.
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A) An apple may be related to an orange because they are both fruit, but just because they are both fruit doesn't mean that they are necessarily related. This is the problem with DA2: It talks about one story, and then it talks about something else, and the only thing linking the two is some mildly related thing that references the chantry, the mages, or the templars (though I'm not necessarily sure how a high dragon invading your mining company has to do with anything). I don't care if they intersect or not. I just care whether or not they make sense or if the motives of the characters are all that justifiable. The Qunari presence was a pretty strong landmark in Act II. Too bad they all but disappeared by Act III. There is a bit of disjointment right there.
Hawke's family is another thing off the top of my head that had almost nothing to do with the overall direction in the game.
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Look at Alistair...he is the same typical male lead archtype that Carth and Kaiden were (and maybe Sky), A good aligned character and a top love interest for a female. Lets look at Leliana, a spiritually good aligned character, just like Bastila and Dawn Star...the only real difference is Leliana has a dark past. Oghren is the typical comic relief warrior, kind of like Black Whirlwind, but not as crazy. He is also way too much of a cliched dwarf. Zervan is HK47 as an elf, an assassin who loves his work. Wynne while a tad different (one of the more original members) can be compared to Jolee. Sten, he is you sterotypical Bioware silent warrior.
I am not knocking DAO characters for taking traditional archtypes, I am knocking them for recycling archtypes used by past Bioware characters. They are way too similiar to their past games.
Want to know why Wild Flower is one of my favorite Bioware characters? Well, she is very unique and sticks out, as is her story. Bioware needs more of these types of characters (not clones of Wild Flower obviously, but Biowrae needs to write characters from archtypes they haven't done).
DAII has a darker cast and a more grey one. While DAO can consist of good characters, nuetral ones, and the more evil ones, DAII's characters outside of Bethany and Sebastian are pretty neutral aligned (even Aveline can be). They all have their struggles and their weaknesses. They are a more compelling cast and the friendship and rivalry system opens up new ways for them to develop.
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While I do carry a copy of KOTOR and Jade Empire, I haven't bothered to finish either game to comment. Even if they are recycled archetypes though, what makes them so bad? Because your tired of them? Their roles, their history, their personalities were all fleshed out in DA:O. I could hardly say the same about DA2, where your companions are motivated only by strong feelings for one thing or another. They represent dichotomies. Have a mage hating elf. You have an elf who is obsessed with blood magic. You have a fighter who is just that... a fighter. You have an antagonizing grey warden who hates templars, and you have a couple rogues on the parade who are of course as rebellious as ever. They may be unique, but that doesn't make them strong characters.
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C) And Wynne other than backstory, doesn't matter in the plot after she is recruited. Its really upsetting to see my fave character in the entire Dragon Age universe, Leliana, not matter in the plot and can be left and forgotten. Most RPGs have their characters participate in the plot. Yes, the Blight affects everyone, but it should be shown, not just infered.
Fenris and Merrill have thematic roles, while they have little to do with the plot they make up for it in theme. Fenris is an example on how unrestriced magic and a society made up of it can affect someones life, and Merill highlights the dangers of blood magic, a point of conflict between mages and templars. Hawke is an observer protagonist which is okay....its different and unique in the WRPG genre. Far too many WRPG protagonists are too powerful, which there choices are the only ones that affect the plot or the environment. Look at New Vegas's Courier, he or she decides everything. WRPGs need more down to earth and less powerful protagonists, while making their choices more impacting on a personal level.
Look at games like Jade Empire and KOTOR II...in KOTOR II, the characters play a huge role in the plot, especially the restored version, even though the Exile is the central figure, almost every character in that game is part of the plot. Look at Nar'Shadda. Hell, they are even playable without the protagonist, even Bao-Dur's droid. Sometimes this can lead to problems, like Atton Rand having to fight those two assassin Twelik's, but from a plot perspective, this makes it better. Hell, in the restored version, HK47's decision means just as much as the Exile's, which is realistic (and the restored content is made offical Star Wars canon).
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C) First, DA:O characters do participate in the plot. They don't directly influence the outcome (at least some of them), but they are there for good reason. They have a purpose because the protagonist, the Grey Warden, has a purpose. They are out to stop the blight, and each having a different motivation to do so.
Second, thematic roles alone don't exactly make strong characters. It's how they tie into the context of the story that matters. Except for Anders, who more or less forced the plot, they don't really fit otherwise except bearing different colors for each deliniated team.
Third, different doesn't mean better. And really, how much influence do those characters you mentioned in DA2 really have on the plot? I can think of one even for Isabella (stealing from our horned friends), one event for Anders (terrorism), and that is pretty much it. They don't exactly make a strong case. Them participating in the affairs of Hawke really doesn't matter, being the "observer" as he is.
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D) The DAII quests are not really random, they are thematically connected if they aren't mechanically connected. Except for the idiotic return items to owner quests which aren't really quests, almost all the quests deal in human weaknesses making situations worse. The mine quest is one of them, the owners obsession over profit gets his workers killed and him left with nothing. If the side quests do not connect mechanically with the plot, they should do so thematically. The returning item quests are noteworthy because they are not only stupid, they are out of place. But almost all quests, main, side, secondary, and companion, are about weaknesses of humanity making things worse. This fits the entire theme of the game that one person is not responsible for a social faliure, such as an outbreak of war. It takes many people.
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D) Hmm. Well sure if we can connect things together by going so deep into philosophical discussions about human weakness, we might as well say the quests are connected together because every character in the game has two legs, two arms, and a head. You the gamer can interpret it anyway you want, and if your interpretation floats your boat, then good on you. Personally, I find mere thematical connections to be weak. It's like associating myself with hockey by simply wearing a jersey, even though I might not necessarily care that much for the sport.
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E) If you lose the frame story, DAII then does become unfocused. You see, the outside frame, with Cassandra and Varric, defines the main narrative theme of the game. Notice how at first Cassandra is blaming the war solely on Hawke, but once she hears Varrics tale she begins to realize that Hawke is not solely responsible, but he or she could stop the war. Cassandra then looks for him/her with new eyes and a new goal. The frame story also makes the time gaps way more justifiable. Without the frame, then the time jumps do become far more jarring.
The only part of DAII that was unfocused was Act I, the game takes far too long in exposition mode.[/quote]
E) I disagree. I think the story can be told perfectly fine without the framed narrative. Cassandra had nothing to do with the entire narrative of the story; her entire purpose there was to know how it all happened. You don't need a framed narrative to achieve this. Plus, it would have made DA2 seem less like a cliff hanger, because it was evident by the end of the game that there was a plan in motion and that the chantry had a motive that remains untold.
The wide time skips were never really all that necessary either, considering how you don't see a whole lot changing from act to act. It may have 'filled the gaps' with a few lines and sentences, but really, if the story could have been tied together more coherently, this wouldn't have been necessary.
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A) Wrong, the storylines interact with eachother....might as well bring up the characters of Sheparding Wolves and The Unbridled Rescue again. Notice how those two stories converged in Act II, which helps lead to the big even in Act II. The stories DO connect mechanically. Blackpowder Courtesy and Promise matter in the plot. The First Sacrifice matter, etc. The only part that IS NOT FOCUSED is Act I, where the stories do seem far apart and don't connect, but as Act II and III roll along, they DO connect. The Qunari were a strong hallmark in Act II, however they are either A) defeated or
leave with the relic, their purpose in Kirkwall fufilled. Hence only a Qunari remanat in Act III.
Hawke's family fleshes out the reason he or she is in Kirkwall, but they are not the focus of the story, just part of it.
And DAO is highly guilty of lack of focus, especially in the midgame. I can use your logic for the four main mid quests as well. They converge far more weakly than DAII's subplots do.
recycling archtypes shows a lack of creativity. Look at the Final Fantasy team, it was evident with them when they refered to FFXIII's Lightning as a "female Cloud". In almost every Final Fantasy game is about stopping a nihilist from destorying the world. They basically repackage FFVI over and over again when they stopped recycling the first five games. And hence how the series has declined. Even the protagonists are the same two archtypes.
Do I have to show the chart from Hellforge or the numerous posts comparing Bioware characters from different games?
C) They are bystanders other than Alistair and at a point Morrigan. This is a worse problem than most RPGs who mostly have their companions participate in the or have stronger ties to the story. Look at Planescape Torment, many of its companions knew the Nameless One before and had their lives impacted by him. They are just "there", they mattered. Half of KOTOR's cast participates in the plot, so do most of Jade Empire's cast...Dawn Star, Sagacious Zu, and Silk Fox play huge roles and the lesser cast members have their moments. Mass Effect 1 characters play their roles and the sequel characters define ME2's plot. DAO was a huge step back for Bioware in character relevance.
Its more than Anders and Isabela.....Aveline becomes a guardswoman and even captain which lets you roam freely around the city, she is also the Arishoks final straw. Varric convinces his brother to even allow Hawke on his expedition and Varric is the huge driver of the story. The elements of his story contribute to Meredith's. And Merrill and Fenris have much more fleshed out companion quests that do add to the plot and its themes. Most of DAII's cast is used in the plot properly, and even if they aren't important, particpate more in th eplot as well.
And how do they bear their "team". In fact Anders and Merrill do not like eachother, even if they are both mages. Sebastian supports the Templar position more, but doesn't always like their tactics. Also, the character development is FAR stronger in DAII than it was in Origins, in fact, a major part of the problem in DAO is the interesting stuff, most of the character development has already happened. The characters in DAO talk, but DAII shows their development. This cannot be debated. Look at Leliana's Song, her DLC, she is the only character in DAO where you can experience her full character development. The other cast comes in 90% developed.
D) There is an aspect of a story called "theme" it is the underlying message the story portrays. A great story will always have a great theme....and DAII's is clear, that one person cannot be held soley responsible for a societal failure. So what does DAII do, have every quest be a part of the theme, about human failure and weakness, just like New Vegas's quests were centered around factional fighting ("War never changes, but men do" Lonesome Road) and how Jade Empire's quests were based on harmony and discord. Really another charge against DAO, its central theme, the one on a hero's sacrifice, isn't established until th every end.
E) Cassandra is important, she is the Seeker looking for Hawke. In a story like DAII, you have to know the outcome first and thats Thedas is at war. You lose that, then the story will have no focus.
And when is a cliffhanger bad.....The Empire Strikes Back says hi.
And things DO change from act to act, while I do think it wasn't represented visually well, storywise they do change. The characters change as well...Isabela and Aveline come to respect eachother, Merill becomes far more pessemistic, Anders becomes more moody and loses more of his humor, etc. The lack of "change" wa sless of a writing problem than a world design one....although if you are observant, each act does have a different color filter.
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