34 réponses à ce sujet

[Master Jax]

I've been on a pilfering streak for some time now, seeing as my knowledge of all things neverwintian is at an all-time-high. I'm particularly interested in any models of NPC's and creatures I can add to my overriding tweaks and haks.

I've scourged through the works of Aenea, Arbor Falls, Q, Baba Yaga's new creatures, Feanor's Medieval Armory, Neverwinter NIghts Enhanced, NWN CQ, the CEP, the CCP, CODI, etc. You know, all of the famous ones, and even some not very well known, like the Silent Hill creatures, Hex Coda's and Kaereena's haks, etc.

However, I'm sure there may be more content out there that hasn't been announced or depicted as much as the previously mentioned, so I'm hopping you guys may share what you've unexpectedly found in PW haks, or some obscure contributions I may have never heard of. This, of course is not so I can steal somebody else's work in order to re-release it, but for my personal and sole use. Besides, there may be some other players out there, who could benefit from the suggestions you make in this thread. I'm talking exclusive content! Never before seen madness!

Thanks in advance!

[The Amethyst Dragon]

Emphasis mine...

Master Jax wrote...

I've been on a pilfering streak for some time now, seeing as my knowledge of all things neverwintian is at an all-time-high. I'm particularly interested in any models of NPC's and creatures I can add to my overriding tweaks and haks.

I've scourged through the works of Aenea, Arbor Falls, Q, Baba Yaga's new creatures, Feanor's Medieval Armory, Neverwinter NIghts Enhanced, NWN CQ, the CEP, the CCP, CODI, etc. You know, all of the famous ones, and even some not very well known, like the Silent Hill creatures, Hex Coda's and Kaereena's haks, etc.

However, I'm sure there may be more content out there that hasn't been announced or depicted as much as the previously mentioned, so I'm hopping you guys may share what you've unexpectedly found in PW haks, or some obscure contributions I may have never heard of. This, of course is not so I can steal somebody else's work in order to re-release it, but for my personal and sole use. Besides, there may be some other players out there, who could benefit from the suggestions you make in this thread. I'm talking exclusive content! Never before seen madness!

Thanks in advance! [smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/kissing.png[/smilie]

Jax,

Since you are not a player in Aenea (nor, as you've posted previously in the Vault comments for my PW's haks, have you ever been one or ever intend to be one), the content I put in the Aenea PW-specific haks is not for your use.  Such work is created specifically for the playing experiences of those that do explore my PW.  I do freely and publicly release a lot of my work on the Vault for others to use, but by no means all of it.  Part of my keeping some of my work "exclusive" or "not announced" is so that the players that visit my personal PW find some things they don't see anywhere else.

I take personal offense at posts such as yours, and it's such an attitude that has prevented me from doing any work over the past several years that you've suggested or asked the community for (even though I now have the skills to do many such things myself).  It is also part of the reason I don't publicly release a higher percentage of the things I have already created.

The only reason the PW haks are hosted on the Vault is simply bandwidth useage.  Multiple downloads of the large files would quickly eat up my web site's monthly data allowance.

I know there are other content makers that freely release everything for others to use, and I respect their choice to do so.  It is just not the same choice I've made for all of my personal creations.

-The Amethyst Dragon

Modifié par The Amethyst Dragon, 02 octobre 2011 - 07:31 .

[DM_Vecna]

Well hopefully the OP was being playful with his language and "pilfering" from your public releases on the Vault. That being said I would love if AD one day released the amazing staves they created..so nice.

In any event, I would take a look at Lord of Worms "Arbor Falls" module. If I am not mistaken he has always said anything he creates is up for grabs to inspire others. Just remember the community as you get better and maybe give back a bit Also when I get my new PW up and running I will release it for public use to any who care to tear it apart.

[OldTimeRadio]

I don't how how useful they'd be to you but there are lots of really creative placeables and creatures here.  Incredible work, including this beauty.  The Last Jedi haks (maybe on the Vault or Google around for them) also have some of the best robes I've ever seen but they are all Star Wars themed.

[Rolo Kipp]

<falls over in an...>

OldTimeRadio wrote...
I don't how how useful they'd be to you but there are lots of really creative placeables and creatures here.  Incredible work, including this beauty.  

!
<...ecstatic faint>

[The Amethyst Dragon]

DM_Vecna wrote...

Well hopefully the OP was being playful with his language and "pilfering" from your public releases on the Vault.

Nope.  He's talking about the PW-specific haks required to play in Aenea (which I put together for players of my PW).  It's the "non-released" content Master/Jedi Jax is looking for (and has been asking for multiple times over the last couple years), and scripting to make some of it work properly outside my PW.

I don't mind if anyone uses the publicly released content.  In fact I'd love it if they did, it's why I released that material for general use.  I put all that other content out there (and make stuff for the monthly custom content challenge) to give back to the community at large.

[Master Jax]

Wow, wow wow! Ok, first of all, yes, the pilfering and pillaging was meant as a stupid joke. I'm stupid and a joker. Now, as for the Amethyst Dragon's posts, I'm going to be as serious and direct as possible:

Yes, I've asked you to release your work to the public many times, and it seems to be an annoyance, so I won't mention it ever again; however, I wasn't asking to have posters work around the backs of authors who clearly don't want to make such public. I started the thread so other community members could point me to material I may have missed because it isn't well known or was uploaded somewhere else, or something similar. I'm sorry you feel offended by my posts, and will try to never refer to you or your work again, as well as plainly avoid any further mention of sharing or the like. I also apologize to the whole community if my comments have in any way stopped contributors from releasing their work.

DM Vecna: trust me when I say I've tried many times to give back to the community, for years I've been transforming my NWN, and wishing to share everything. However, my desire has always been thwarted by the fact none of the content is originally mine. On several occasions I've PM'ed authors, asking them to give me permission to release some modified models, textures or tiles, but most of them are not cool with me even modifying it for my own use, much less for a mixed release.

In some cases authors have died (seriously), are off radar, or just never answer my mails. This has gone for a long time, and as it is well within their right to deny permission, there is not much I can do about it. I've shared some very little tweaks with PW contributors and some users, but always under the rule none of it is originally mine, and they cannot release it as their own. Imagine if I went and uploaded the things I use just for kicks! Once, I believe Maximus told me I wasn't even allowed to post pictures of how my NWN actually looks like with all the modified stuff.

OldTimeRadio: I will definitely check your links, thanks for answering the call, and if you haven't already checked the haks I mentioned, I definitely recommend them! I'm going to take a risk and tell you I have recently added some sweet City Exterior tiles included in the Tortured Hearts 2 Hak, stairs instead of ramps, and thin waterways along the sidewalks of streets. My cities look better because of those!

Modifié par Master Jax, 03 octobre 2011 - 06:00 .

[WebShaman]

I sort of do not understand the fuss here - if someone is "doctoring up" their own NWN, for their own use, then what harm is there to using what resources are available?

I can definitely see a difference to someone altering other peeps stuff then offering it up as their own. That is clearly wrong.

But for personal use?

The Amethyst Dragon, are you seriously saying that someone should not use specific CC from you for personal use? (I define personal use here as being in a Closed SP Environment - where no-one else can see it, use it, or experience outside of the Player in question).

I just want to set the record straight here.

Modifié par WebShaman, 03 octobre 2011 - 10:28 .

[Eradrain]

@WebShaman - I'm pretty sure that's what AD is indeed saying, yes. The sense of entitlement that some NWN players have, along the lines of "If it's out there and I can find it somehow, I have a right to and deserve to use it at least for my own private self" has driven away some of our best custom content authors (like Lord Rosencrantz, whose name I'm sure I've mispelled).

If someone makes a piece of content, they should have the right to dictate how it's used, up to and including forbidding anyone else from using it except under certain circumstances, or even at all. This is because it's something they've created, it belongs to them, and if they choose to share it with others in any way, it's a gift, and not an entitlement. Naturally that's very difficult/impossible to enforce, but decent human beings won't flaunt the artist's wishes.

Modifié par Eradrain, 03 octobre 2011 - 05:02 .

[Rolo Kipp]

<watching the big cats...>

I think of it as any other intellectual property. Some people release it completely into the public domain, some people release it under a Gnu license and some people wish to retain their rights.

I view anything on the Vault as released into the public domain *except* when explicitly stated that they are limiting the rights to it, as TAD does and several others. I read the restrictions they put on the content. If it is too confining, then I apply to the author for greater rights. Or do without.

This is one of the reasons I've been so interested in tracking down the CEP Treegiant mdl author... I want to use it. Knowing it was ripped from WoW, however, means I can, at most, use it as inspiration for a derivative model. Pity. But you work with what you have.

On my part, I intend to release all my content (except writing) under the Gnu license... you can use it however you see fit except to make money (without cutting me in ;-), but you should give me credit.

<...chasing the ugly antelopes>

[Master Jax]

As I was just saying to a contributor recently, whether you agree or disagree with author rights or the terms of public release, this thread wasn't meant to create controversy or question such an issue, it was originally posted as a means to note publicly released content that I may have overlooked. There are other NWN sites besides the Vault which have resources unavailable at the aforementioned (although completely public), and some PW managers/creators (whom I can't name because they explicitly asked me not to) have shared content with me under the rule I am not to release it publicly.

I have no problem with posters sharing their opinions on rights of both creators and users, but let it be known it isn't and was never the issue to be discussed.

[WebShaman]

Eradrain, I don't think you want to go down that path here.

As Rolo Kipp has stated (re: My apologies OTR, I mistakenly put your name in here), I (and others) do regard The Vault to be Public Domain. I do respect CC creator wishes where I can - and I am against "stealing" the work of others and then offering up as one's own (this has happened in the past, so it is not just in theory here).

But personal use from a public domain source...trying to control that sounds very bad for the Community to me.

I can certainly understand The Amethyst Dragon's reasons for using The Vault (bandwidth considerations, as stated) - and since I do not know what sort of deal TAD has with the Internet Provider for the website, I cannot say anything one way or another about that.

But TAD chose a public domain source to host the files in. And it would seem as if it is being totally denied the public. This is why I wanted to get a clarifier from TAD on this.

To set the record straight - I have played on Aerena. While an interesting PW, it is definitely not for me. Thus, I do not play there. As such, that means that for whatever reason that someone does not play on that PW, they will not be able to enjoy this CC, if what TAD said means not for personal use of any kind.

Of course, one still has access to the CC (public domain). That is sort of a strange thing.

Modifié par WebShaman, 05 octobre 2011 - 12:49 .

[Eradrain]

Public Domain is a term that applies to works whose copyright has expired. I believe, in the United States at least, that this is 30 or 50 or 70 years after the artist's death, or something. It doesn't strike me as really applicable to what we're talking about, except in a very tangential way.

In any case, I thought you might know something about the Vault's operational terms that I didn't, so I went to the NWVault and tried to find their terms of use. I couldn't find the page, can you link me to where it says that anything posted on the NWVault is free to use without restriction?

Like I said, the minute you post something on a place where people can download it freely, it becomes impossible to actually regulate. I'm not talking about actually being able to control what people do. I'm talking about the fact that people thinking they're entitled (speaking generally, not referring to anyone specific here) is just a downright shame, and it's cost us custom content authors in the past, and may well cost us more in the future.

I can understand the desire to want to use something beautiful that someone's made.  But in my opinion, it's being ungrateful to the artist who made it if one uses it in a way they don't agree with, regardless of where it's hosted.  It's not a matter of legality, or rules, just basic human decency.  Saying "you put it here, I'm using it now any way I want" isn't against the rules, it's just ungrateful and demoralizing to someone who deserves thanks.  And the idea that because it's posted as a freely available download, and subsequently that one won't get in any sort of trouble for flaunting the author's wishes if one uses it contrary to those wishes, is exactly the sort of entitlement problems I'm talking about.  Gratitude, not fear of punishment, should be the chief motivator in these sorts of interactions.

Modifié par Eradrain, 04 octobre 2011 - 11:40 .

[3RavensMore]

Eradrain wrote...

What you said x1000%. 

Respect coupled with politeness and courtesy should be the golden rule – in life, as well as in this virtual life.  

Modifié par 3RavensMore, 05 octobre 2011 - 12:09 .

[Rolo Kipp]

<rolling some dice...>

Game theory says that *beginning* with the cooperative strategy, but being responsive to the cheating strategy, is the most winning plan.

Sort of saying that believing the glass is half full is a self-fulfilling prophecy.
Wait.
Am I making sense? <no> Oh.
Never mind then.
Carry on.

<...that are only *slightly* loaded>

Modifié par Rolo Kipp, 05 octobre 2011 - 12:28 .

[henesua]

I also agree with Eradrain. But I think arguing over legalese in this case is a mean spirited way to take this discussion.

Amethyst Dragon has made his wishes known and clearly, and those wishes are reasonable. That is essentially his "license" on his PW's content. If many in the community disrespect his wishes on this, he can leave.

I would rather he not leave. I like his content. And I hope he shares more with us.

Those are the REAL rules in this case. You break them, everybody loses.

[Rolo Kipp]

<jumping up...>

Ooh! Ooh! I know! Speak softly but carry a big<boss!>...no?<no.>
Ok.

<...and settles down>

[Rolo Kipp]

<drawing a smiley..>

henesua wrote...
I would rather he not leave. I like his content. And I hope he shares more with us.

Me, too. Bottom line.

<...two dots and an up-curving bottom line>

[Master Jax]

As I said before, whatever the case may be, wherever your opinion may lay, the issue is a matter of objective facts against subjective principles. Appealing to moral or ethical behavior is as effective as appealing to taste or religious beliefs. The matter should be solved by having a close and detailed look at the terms of use of the Vault itself, as Eradrian mentioned.

A good example of this would be the voting system. There have been some posters following a strict rulebook regarding the review of content, yet the vast majority are determined by users who vote solely on mood swings, or even the preview pictures of works they haven't even checked out. Should we appeal to their ethics and decency too, or would it make more sense to establish and enforce a set of rules?

If anyone has an actual link to the terms of use in the Vault, it would put an end to the debate that has been going on here. I, for one, would like to see what the boundaries of interaction between users are, something that hasn't been brought up for... well, I don't think it has ever been brought up. Is it actually possible for a user to be banned from the Vault? If it is, under what conditions? Leaving things to common sense is never an option.

And man, your recent posts were surely difficult for me to get, Rolo, but now that I did, I see what you did there... hehehehe! Subtle, so much that I'm guessing they went a bit unnoticed.

Modifié par Master Jax, 05 octobre 2011 - 07:11 .

[WebShaman]

Well, we did go down this path before, and it pretty much caused an uproar in the Community, which did result in a Schism (which it seems is still present) and did result in some CCers leaving, etc.

It never really did get resolved, and Bioware never made an official statement on it.

My stance remains as it was back then.

Out.

[lordofworms]

I just want to pipe in for myself for anyone reading this and to confirm for my own work,yes, Arbor Falls and my own work is freely given and able to be used/modified/repackaged in any way/shape or form, a great way to show your enthusiasm is by by voting, posting a 'thank you' or any of a hundred things you could do to help show your support for your favorit artists. but for me, personally its not necessary. I believe Baba Yaga also has the same views as myself. If I make a cool looking creature and post it , within a couple months I am almost guaranteed a great new model built off of it..which may inspire me to do more...
but thats the way I am..give freely.

Now for tAD, I agree with him as well, it *would* be nice to keep all my own things just for Arbor Falls, but for me its like this... I do have stuff that only Arbor Falls has, meaning I havent packaged it up seperately (custom systems, scripts, models, creatures,etc) but hey, if someone wants to gruellingly take apart these systems and rewrite them for their own use..or browse the haks for all the models and cross hakked rferences to textures and such...all the power to them...its this reason only alone that I haven't repackaged some of this rare content, so sometimes, hey these guys are doing me a favor.
but AD does have some great stuff, i mean really really great, he once helped me with some spell VFX and is all around the kinda guy I would love to work with. Just his views are different from my views which is different from maybe someone elses view.


as always play nice with one another, after all, we are all we got now. (:
.

Modifié par lordofworms, 05 octobre 2011 - 03:34 .

[Mad.Hatter]

I love AD and I love his publicly released work. I've been meaning to try Aenea for ages but haven't had the time for any MP NWN. I've never actually downloaded his PW haks.

However, something bugs me about his post at the beginning of the thread. He states that he uses the NWN Vault BECAUSE he doesn't want to pay for bandwidth. Fine. That means that the IGN Vault pays for his bandwidth usage.

How does the bandwidth ultimately get paid for then? Through advertisements and premium memberships. I specifically turn off AdBlock Plus when on IGN because it is one of the websites I feel obligated to support that way. I have also been a premium member in the past.

In that sense I have partially (if in minuscule fashion) paid for Aenea's hak hosting. Unless the Vault has clear usage terms (which I haven't looked at because I've simply respected AD's requests) preventing paying patrons from using hosted content then I'm not sure I should feel terrible about using AD's stuff.

Now, if AD hosted his haks on Filestube, 4shared, or as a Torrent I doubt anyone would blink twice about using the content. Do things magically change because the IGN Vault has a NWN picture at the top?

To be safe, I would tell AD to host his own haks and ask his players to donate for the added bandwidth. Otherwise I think we can see another sort of entitlement: "I can make you pay for my hak hosting but you can't use my stuff." which, IMO, is just as bad as "You say I can't use your stuff, but I'm going to anyway."

[TimG]

nothing good can come from this thread at all...

[_six]

The simple answer is ask people about stuff. If they don't mind, they'll say yes of course, and if they are bothered, then they'll have their opportunity to say no. Everyone's happy.

It's not difficult, and is arguably the most polite option. Regardless of how much politeness you feel is necessary, more is hardly likely to be a bad thing.

Modifié par _six, 05 octobre 2011 - 06:04 .

[AndarianTD]

I just want to state my agreement with Eradrain's and The Amethyst Dragon's comments here. I think that content creators have a right to determine the use and distribution of their work, and that requests like AD's should simply be respected as a matter of community ethics.

I did, however, want to comment on one point that came up in the discussion:

Mad.Hatter wrote...

I love AD and I love his publicly released work... However, something bugs me about his post at the beginning of the thread. He states that he uses the NWN Vault BECAUSE he doesn't want to pay for bandwidth. Fine. That means that the IGN Vault pays for his bandwidth usage...

Unless the Vault has clear usage terms (which I haven't looked at because I've simply respected AD's requests) preventing paying patrons from using hosted content then I'm not sure I should feel terrible about using AD's stuff.

Now, if AD hosted his haks on Filestube, 4shared, or as a Torrent I doubt anyone would blink twice about using the content...

To be safe, I would tell AD to host his own haks and ask his players to donate for the added bandwidth. Otherwise I think we can see another sort of entitlement: "I can make you pay for my hak hosting but you can't use my stuff." which, IMO, is just as bad as "You say I can't use your stuff, but I'm going to anyway."

The Vault does in fact have guidelines regarding these issues. Maximus and I wrote them together in an attempt to address the custom content controversy that arose a few years ago. Those guidelines can be found here:

Custom Content Authorship Guidelines

The important issues are outlined in points 1, 2, 6, 7, and 8, and can be summarized as follows:

- Users of the NWVault are expected to respect the reasonable wishes expressed by authors regarding the use, distribution, and crediting of content that is linked to and/or hosted on it.

- The Vault does not restrict the kind of usage restrictions an author can place on their work. This recognizes the legitimacy of authors like Amethyst Dragon placing the kind of usage restrictions that he has on his submissions. It also recognizes that the presence of a submission on the Vault's servers is not necessarily a grant of permission for others to re-use that work against the author's stated wishes.

- When it comes to content that you've uploaded to the Vault, it may or may not decide to enforce your request to have that content removed if someone else re-uploads it to the Vault. That is, essentially, a risk that you take when you use the Vault's servers and bandwidth to store and distribute your work.

- If you want to be able to expect your usage restrictions to be enforced by the Vault, then while you can link to it from the Vault, you are expected to have hosted the content in question on your own site.

Interestingly, it seems that IGN has adapted those guidelines to other communities than NWN's. The same guidelines can be found, for example, on IGN's WOW Vault here.

As co-author of the guidelines, I think I can probably address questions about the policy if anyone has them.

Eradrain wrote...

Naturally that's very difficult/impossible to enforce, but decent human beings won't flaunt the artist's wishes.

Agreed, but just for the record, that should be "flout" rather than "flaunt." 

Modifié par AndarianTD, 05 octobre 2011 - 11:34 .