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[Gervaise]

I wondered if people who know/understand Merrill better than I do can explain something to me.  I should stress that I am unlikely to take Merrill with me on the Legacy quest no matter where in the game I do it, but I noticed the Wiki entry says that if you make an offering on the Altar of Dumat, this earns you friendship points with Merrill.

I am a bit of a loss to understand why this would merit her approval.  Dumat is the chief god of the old Tevinter Imperium.   The history of Arlathan which you read in the Dalish Camp specifically states that Arlathan was destroyed by the old Tevinter Imperium with the help of dragons, demons and undead.  Even if she did not previously know the name of the old Tevinter gods, she mentions that she has heard the Chant of Light and in any case I would imagine that is something that would have been known to the elves or she may have picked up from her discussions with others.  She will also know that the old gods are believed to be dragons or at least be able to take dragon form, which again links it to the destruction of her people.  So why on earth would she approve of an offering being made to one of the chief gods responsible for destroying her people's empire in the first place?  The only answer I have come up with thus far is that the squat ugly little god sitting above the altar is the same figure that was above the altar where her "friendly" demon was imprisoned but since you can go through after this demon has resulted in the death of the Keeper (and her entire clan depending on which choices you make), again why would this be a reason for her approval?

Can anyone throw light on this strange behaviour?

[Heidenreich]

Because according to legend, the Old gods were the ones who taught man how to use blood magic.

Offering stuff to the god of blood magic is a good thing, in her eyes, because she's pro-blood magic.

[DKJaigen]

Gervaise wrote...

I wondered if people who know/understand Merrill better than I do can explain something to me.  I should stress that I am unlikely to take Merrill with me on the Legacy quest no matter where in the game I do it, but I noticed the Wiki entry says that if you make an offering on the Altar of Dumat, this earns you friendship points with Merrill.

I am a bit of a loss to understand why this would merit her approval.  Dumat is the chief god of the old Tevinter Imperium.   The history of Arlathan which you read in the Dalish Camp specifically states that Arlathan was destroyed by the old Tevinter Imperium with the help of dragons, demons and undead.  Even if she did not previously know the name of the old Tevinter gods, she mentions that she has heard the Chant of Light and in any case I would imagine that is something that would have been known to the elves or she may have picked up from her discussions with others.  She will also know that the old gods are believed to be dragons or at least be able to take dragon form, which again links it to the destruction of her people.  So why on earth would she approve of an offering being made to one of the chief gods responsible for destroying her people's empire in the first place?  The only answer I have come up with thus far is that the squat ugly little god sitting above the altar is the same figure that was above the altar where her "friendly" demon was imprisoned but since you can go through after this demon has resulted in the death of the Keeper (and her entire clan depending on which choices you make), again why would this be a reason for her approval?

Can anyone throw light on this strange behaviour?

2 things why merril approves. 1 is scientific curiosity. 2 It shows that hawke is able to keep an open mind on things and accept new ways.

[TastesLikeTNT]

DKJaigen wrote...

2 things why merril approves. 1 is scientific curiosity. 2 It shows that hawke is able to keep an open mind on things and accept new ways.

Pretty much. She finds the ritual fascinating and from Hawke's side, it's a demonstration of openmindedness towards unconventional magic that would make many people squeamish. If Merrill doesn't despise blood magic for its association with Tevinter and their sacrificing of elven slaves by the score, I don't see why she would hate Dumat just for being worshipped by the people that destroyed hers. It's not like the attack was directly ordered by him, as far as we know.

[Gervaise]

Well I still find it surprising that it results in that sort of reaction. And if that is the case, why doesn't she disapprove if Hawke defiles it? To be honest, outside of Fenris and Sebastian, I would have thought she would have been the one who would most want to see it destroyed. My Dalish Warden would have done so and peed on it for good measure. He didn't have respect for any human religion, Chantry or otherwise and also felt somewhat aggrevied that the actions of humans ended up with him getting tainted and eventually having to kill his friend Tamlen - clearly Merrill has forgotten what darkspawn taint did to her mirror. I wonder whether she felt so good about making that offering when you get to the end and it is confirmed that Dumat was responsible for encouraging the Magisters to do what they did?

[TastesLikeTNT]

Dumat convinced the magisters to enter the Golden/Black City - I don't recall reading anything about him persuading them to wipe out the elven kingdom.

Merrill seldom, if ever, assign blame on beings or things for whatever dark history they might carry. Demonic possession can probably be counted as a fate worse than death, but does she hate demons for seeking to possess mortals? Nope. That's what they do - they can't help being what they are. Blood magic is widely associated with the magisters of the Imperium and the horrible crimes they've committed - does she despise blood magic? Nope! It's just magic - it's not its fault that some people abuse it. Likewise, it's not the mirror's fault the taint it contained killed Tamlen. It's not the Altar of Dumat's fault that Dumat's worshippers were a bunch of schmuckaloos. What matters more to her that it's a now-extinct magical ritual - and a piece of history - that she finds interesting.

Why she does not disapprove of defiling it, I can't say.

Modifié par TastesLikeTNT, 02 octobre 2011 - 07:51 .

[Gervaise]

What I meant was encouraged the Magisters to enter the Golden City that resulted in them becoming darkspawn. Mind you, given that Corypheus demonstrates that the Magisters were certainly very devoted to Dumat and called upon him to help them in their battles, I think you can pretty much assume that if nothing else he provided them with the inspiration and most probably the magical knowhow to overcome the ancient elves. So now she knows how they honoured their chief god before going into battle. The question is, will the elf gods regard this as remembering what it is to be an elf or not, since that is why the Dalish are meant to be recovering the past, so the elf gods will return to them. At least that is what she told Sebastian. The mirror is an elven artifact, the altar of Dumat is not. As for blood magic, well the historical accounts seem to vary as to whether the ancient elves used it or not. If they did, then it is part of her history, if they did not then its first use was by humans, taught by Dumat, who then went on to destroy her people. I am only judging this from what Merrill, and other elves, have said governs their beliefs and way of life. Since Merrill was willing to sacrifice everything just to restore one piece of elven history, she is hardly lukewarm about this, so I would have thought that at best she would have been indifferent to what Hawke did to the altar - it is human history, not her own.

[TastesLikeTNT]

Merrill is very preoccupied with elven history and the plight of her people, yes, but that does not cover the scope of her interests. She also likes magic. She is especially fascinated with magic that is otherwise considered iffy (which is why she gives you friendship points for keeping Tarohne's forbidden tomes rather than destroying them), and considering how Fenris, Sebastian and Anders reacts to it, using the Altar falls under that category.

Not to mention how using the Altar might parallel her own decisions, at least a little - exploiting something possibly dangerous to achieve something good. She uses demons to fix her mirror and lift the barrier to the Sundermount's altar, Hawke uses the Altar and obtains the Chain of the Penitent.

[TEWR]

Gervaise wrote...

I wondered if people who know/understand Merrill better than I do can explain something to me.  I should stress that I am unlikely to take Merrill with me on the Legacy quest no matter where in the game I do it, but I noticed the Wiki entry says that if you make an offering on the Altar of Dumat, this earns you friendship points with Merrill.

I am a bit of a loss to understand why this would merit her approval.  Dumat is the chief god of the old Tevinter Imperium.   The history of Arlathan which you read in the Dalish Camp specifically states that Arlathan was destroyed by the old Tevinter Imperium with the help of dragons, demons and undead.  Even if she did not previously know the name of the old Tevinter gods, she mentions that she has heard the Chant of Light and in any case I would imagine that is something that would have been known to the elves or she may have picked up from her discussions with others.  She will also know that the old gods are believed to be dragons or at least be able to take dragon form, which again links it to the destruction of her people.  So why on earth would she approve of an offering being made to one of the chief gods responsible for destroying her people's empire in the first place?  The only answer I have come up with thus far is that the squat ugly little god sitting above the altar is the same figure that was above the altar where her "friendly" demon was imprisoned but since you can go through after this demon has resulted in the death of the Keeper (and her entire clan depending on which choices you make), again why would this be a reason for her approval?

Can anyone throw light on this strange behaviour?

It's not the religion that she approves of. It's the old and powerful magic that Hawke's taking a part of that she approves of. When Hawke participates in the sacrifice to Dumat, she says "Fascinating!" (side note: that always makes me laugh, probably because it's Merrill saying it and how she says it).

She's fascinated with the magic that went in to making it work, and is probably even more fascinated with it working when Dumat is supposedly dead.

The magic behind the thing is what interests her really.

[Gervaise]

Even with Dumat dead it is still symbolic of the power that destroyed her ancestors' civilisation, resulting in the subjugation of the elves and upon such altars thousands upon thousands of elves have given their lives in enforced blood sacrifice. But I grant you, Merrill only ever sees what she wants to see and the significance of the altar may not even have entered her head. It certainly wasn't lost on Fenris so I suppose I shall have to be content with that. I am a very pro elf person and was rather disappointed that DA2 didn't allow me to play one. I feel there was unfinished business left in Tevinter. Free the mages? Fine but also free the elves (and other slaves).

[Knight of Dane]

Just because christians/and-or/germans murdered jews in the 1940'ies doesn't mean that some of them(the jews) aren't curious to christian/and-or/German traditions and culture.

[TEWR]

Gervaise wrote...

Even with Dumat dead it is still symbolic of the power that destroyed her ancestors' civilisation, resulting in the subjugation of the elves and upon such altars thousands upon thousands of elves have given their lives in enforced blood sacrifice. But I grant you, Merrill only ever sees what she wants to see and the significance of the altar may not even have entered her head. It certainly wasn't lost on Fenris so I suppose I shall have to be content with that. I am a very pro elf person and was rather disappointed that DA2 didn't allow me to play one. I feel there was unfinished business left in Tevinter. Free the mages? Fine but also free the elves (and other slaves).

That's a tad harsh, isn't it?

She indeed does know that it's an Altar to Dumat for a couple reasons:

1) A voice starts praying to Dumat
2) All of the items are significant to Dumat

The magic behind it is indeed fascinating, and there's nothing wrong with her finding it to be so. It's ancient and powerful magic that still works after a thousand years have passed and Dumat is supposed to be dead. Many cultures find other cultures to be fascinating even after the former was wronged severely. It's history. You're supposed to learn from it, not ignore it because of what happened in the past.

Think about it this way: If Merrill studied on the workings of this magic, she would know more about the Tevinter Imperium and should they try anything against the elves, she might know something. She could create an altar to Mythal and bind something to it (perhaps demons, but I don't think she'd try that because the Tevinters are masters with demons. Maybe Golems like the Avvar altar or even a Varterral). Then, if something should happen to said altar -- like say defiling it -- then whatever was bound to it would attack the person who defiled it.

[Gervaise]

Knight of Dane - a better analogy would be a Jew approving of someone giving the **** salute and paying homage to Hitler and I think I am safe in saying that no Jew would give a friendship rating improvement over that, no matter how fascinated by history they are. Not all German Christians or German nationals supported the ****s and many died opposing them. German/Christian culture is part of the heritage of many German Jews. In any case, we have a far more tolerant sociey than is generally found in Thedas.

The fact is that Hawke is not respecting anyone's culture or traditions by undertaking a ritual purely for material gain, which lets face it is what you are doing. However, the fact that the "god" ignores this and the mere offer of sacrifice is sufficient , does not take away from the crux of the matter which is that by undertaking this ritual you are aligning yourself with the culture and beliefs of the Dumat worshippers, who we know were the Tevinter Imperium at the height of their power, with everything they stood for. This is why I could understand her disapproving of defiling it because she would not want anyone doing that to an altar of the elf gods but not specifically giving approval for undertaking the ritual. If you do not feel you should defile any piece of history, however terrible the associations, then just walk away from it but do not make yourself a link in the chain of tradition of these worshipers unless you approve of the way the Tevinter Magisters conducted themselves and the things which Dumat encouraged them to do.

[Knight of Dane]

You are putting too much into a few friendship points.

Merrill get friendship in this case because she approves of exploring gorgotten magics like this ritual, dalish or not, it's her curious nature. That is also why she doesn't get rivalry when you destroy it, she likes the mystique of it, but she doesn't really mind Hawke's rage upon it either. I suspect she just pull on her shoulders and say "too bad.."

Modifié par Knight of Dane, 04 octobre 2011 - 03:47 .

[TEWR]

This is why I could understand her disapproving of defiling it because she would not want anyone doing that to an altar of the elf gods but not specifically giving approval for undertaking the ritual

Her gaining rivalry for Hawke defiling the altar would actually mean what you're saying her friendship means. That she supports the Tevinter worshippers and everything.

[Gervaise]

If that be the case, then as I said before, just let her remain neutral. However, I find it a bit disconcerting that by that logic Merrill actually approves of the sentiments contained in the Blood Magic Tomes you destroy, though I must admit I find it strange that you still end up with the codexes telling you their contents, when I am not meant to have read them. However, presumably she will know, either from being there or from your companions, what the author Tahrone was dong and therefore should have a good idea of what the books are likely to be about. You will not be surprised to learn that I envariably end up on a rivalry footing with Merrill.
Thanks for the thoughts on my post anyway.

[Wulfram]

"It's a Keeper's job to remember, even the dangerous things."

Even Dumat?

Modifié par Wulfram, 04 octobre 2011 - 10:01 .

[Knight of Dane]

"If you forget your enemies, even the ones gone, you will be the easier target."

[TEWR]

If that be the case, then as I said before, just let her remain neutral. However, I find it a bit disconcerting that by that logic Merrill actually approves of the sentiments contained in the Blood Magic Tomes you destroy, though I must admit I find it strange that you still end up with the codexes telling you their contents, when I am not meant to have read them. However, presumably she will know, either from being there or from your companions, what the author Tahrone was dong and therefore should have a good idea of what the books are likely to be about. You will not be surprised to learn that I envariably end up on a rivalry footing with Merrill.
Thanks for the thoughts on my post anyway.

Merrill values knowledge. It doesn't matter what its origins are. Knowledge is something she values because knowledge is useful. She's also a blood mage, and those tomes deal specifically with blood magic and demons. Merrill probably thinks that they'd give her an edge over Audacity by keeping them around

[Gervaise]

"It's a keepers job to remember, even the dangerous things." This is so they can recover their elven culture and according to their traditions, once they have remembered what it is to be an elf, their gods will return to them.

A keeper would remember that Dumat was a god of the Tevinter Imperium and therefore the last thing any elf should ever do is engage/participate or even give tacit approval to a ritual in honour of that god. Being aware of something, through say reading about it, and engaging in a ritual are two completely different things. So Merrill could read the details given with the various items required for the ritual, which is all that she needs to know to understand her enemy.

Arguably, Merrill might be right about the Blood Tomes because by studying them you can understand how to withstand blood magic and demon possession or other mages trying to do this to you. What you should not then do is use the rituals contained in such books yourself. However, I think this would be exactly what Merrill would end up doing because she doesn't think there is anything wrong in doing so, and then putting herself and others at risk. So the only way to stop people like Merrill for abusing this knowledge is to destroy them. Look at Orsino - reads some research notes that he admits seemed "too evil to use" and then when the temptation presents itself, he does precisely that.

The use of any magic associated with the god Dumat would also be extremely dubious to an elf, unless it was known to be magic that was usurped from the elven gods. So far as I could tell, the clan were against Merrill, not just because the Keeper said the mirror was dangerous, but because she used blood magic. Merrill defends its use on the basis that it was all she had available to her, not that it was part of her elven heritage. May be the clan are so hostile because to use such magic might actually prevent the return of their gods - may be it has been suspected by the Keepers that it was dabbling in blood magic that was disapproved of by their gods. Certainly associating with demons would likely be considered in this way because how do you know that the spirit you are dealing with is not Fen'Harel?

It is not about whether I like or dislike Merrill, or even how I view her actions as a resident of Thedas generally, but how in keeping or not these are with her professed aim in life. I feel that Merrill doesn't truly understand the culture she claims that she is trying to restore and in her single minded quest for knowledge she has actually lost the point of why she is doing it. That, of course, is only my own opinion and other "elves" may well disagree with me, until such time as the Developers/Writers choose to enlighten us further on early Thedas history or what the Dalish believe.

[esper]

None of us doesn't really understand the culture she is trying to reclaim as we know next to nothing about it.
Merrill is trying to look beyond legends and find out what the truth is. The altar of dumat is interesting to her because it is still working. I think that she (correctly) expects it to be assoiciated with demons and blood magic. Something which she is greatly interested in. It is not about worship for Merrill - it is about being an ancient ritual that works which interest her, because it might date all the way back to the elvuians and so some of the principle of its working might just be the same.

So far I could tell the clan was against Merrill because of the Keeper. Pol was a former Andrastian. And nothing suggest that the dalish are against blood magic in the same way the andrastian are - just that they think it is dangerous. I am sure it was the taint they feared.

[DKJaigen]

@Gervaise try to look from the perspective of someone who is pragmatic rather then emotional. Then merill's actions make sense. She really doesnt care about dumat just the magic theory involved.

[TEWR]

Gervaise wrote...

"It's a keepers job to remember, even the dangerous things." This is so they can recover their elven culture and according to their traditions, once they have remembered what it is to be an elf, their gods will return to them.

A keeper would remember that Dumat was a god of the Tevinter Imperium and therefore the last thing any elf should ever do is engage/participate or even give tacit approval to a ritual in honour of that god. Being aware of something, through say reading about it, and engaging in a ritual are two completely different things. So Merrill could read the details given with the various items required for the ritual, which is all that she needs to know to understand her enemy.

Merrill's not the one engaging in the ritual. Hawke is. Merrill's approving of the fact that Hawke didn't outright destroy the altar.

What you're asking her to do is cast her personal feelings on something ahead of everything else. She doesn't know anything about this altar or why it's so special, so it's going to be hard for her to remember anything about it.

If she were to put her personal feelings ahead of everything else because of what happened in the past, she should've been rude to Hawke for being a human considering humans took away their home twice. Doubly rude and cold to him because he's an Andrastian human, and they're (most likely imo) responsible for the Fall of the Dales in the view of the elves!

All knowledge is potentially dangerous. --- Morrigan

Imagine if Morrigan didn't read Flemeth's True Grimoire after finding out about Flemeth's supposedly true plans. She'd miss out on a valuable amount of knowledge because of her personal feelings regarding it. It's knowledge for surviving in the future.

Arguably, Merrill might be right about the Blood Tomes because by studying them you can understand how to withstand blood magic and demon possession or other mages trying to do this to you. What you should not then do is use the rituals contained in such books yourself. However, I think this would be exactly what Merrill would end up doing because she doesn't think there is anything wrong in doing so, and then putting herself and others at risk. So the only way to stop people like Merrill for abusing this knowledge is to destroy them. Look at Orsino - reads some research notes that he admits seemed "too evil to use" and then when the temptation presents itself, he does precisely that.

Orsino's a very different case. And one that shouldn't have ever been done, but those are my personal feelings. He didn't just do the Harvester ritual willy-nilly because he felt like it. He did it because he felt like there was no way out of that situation.

Desperation drove him to do it, not temptation.

And now for my personal feelings regarding the battle of the mages, because I have to be that guy: any blind son of a nug-licker could see that the mages could have in fact won that battle and gotten out. All it would've taken was a little bit of strategy, but it could've been done.

The Mages went to the top of the Gallows (though why Orsino left any outside of the gathering zone is beyond me) and from there they could've launced a fiery, electrical apocalyptic assault and created a storm ranging from the docks of Kirkwall proper and the docks of the Gallows that would've destroyed much of Meredith's forces.

Then there's the funnel! That should've been spammed with all sorts of spells by the mages.

The use of any magic associated with the god Dumat would also be extremely dubious to an elf, unless it was known to be magic that was usurped from the elven gods. So far as I could tell, the clan were against Merrill, not just because the Keeper said the mirror was dangerous, but because she used blood magic. Merrill defends its use on the basis that it was all she had available to her, not that it was part of her elven heritage. May be the clan are so hostile because to use such magic might actually prevent the return of their gods - may be it has been suspected by the Keepers that it was dabbling in blood magic that was disapproved of by their gods. Certainly associating with demons would likely be considered in this way because how do you know that the spirit you are dealing with is not Fen'Harel?

It's really just magic dealing with bending demons to the will of the mages. They'll attack only if the altar was defiled, and that's due to the fact that whoever bound them there wanted it so.

It's not really all that different than if someone defiled the altar to the Avvar gods and the golems attack the person. Why would the Warden Commander of Amaranthine take part in the worship of Korth?

It is not about whether I like or dislike Merrill, or even how I view her actions as a resident of Thedas generally, but how in keeping or not these are with her professed aim in life. I feel that Merrill doesn't truly understand the culture she claims that she is trying to restore and in her single minded quest for knowledge she has actually lost the point of why she is doing it. That, of course, is only my own opinion and other "elves" may well disagree with me, until such time as the Developers/Writers choose to enlighten us further on early Thedas history or what the Dalish believe.

I'm a Dwarf .

[Gervaise]

The comment about associating with demons was with respect to the way her clan were reacting to her association, not the fact that a bunch of demons attack you if you defile the altar or destroy the tomes.

Actually my Dalish elf warden respected Andraste after discovering that the Chantry had deliberately omitted references to Shartan in the Chant of Light (after the Exalted March on the Dales) and then in the Gauntlet heard what the spirit of Shartan had to say on the matter. He disliked the Chantry intensely after that but still wouldn't go around murdering clerics or planting bombs.

A similar situation for him would be if he had agreed to defiling the ashes when the request came from a dragon worshiper - dragon worshipers having destroyed Arlathan and in fact dragons under the control of the Magisters were used in the conquest. He also would not agree to Morrigan's dark ritual because something didn't feel right to him about it, he didn't think old Tevinter gods are worth saving and destroying/merging the soul of his innocent child with that of an old god (even if it was in the womb) seemed to him immoral. Mind you emotion still entered into it because her hypocrisy when telling him to "think of Zevran" when she had previously insisted on him chosing between them and had always seemed against showing emtoion, really enraged him, so the fact that she wanted something that much she was even prepared to sleep with Alistair, made him all the more determined not to let her have it.

My other wardens were far more pragmatic and even the city elf did the deal.

But DKJaigen has sussed me - I am a very emotional person. As a mage I would imagine I would be regarded as high risk in Thedas. And I do like to role play my characters but for some reason I haven't been able to come up with a Hawke who would win the friendship of Merrill - I suppose my prejudices are just too deeply ingrained about blood magic and doing deals with demons. And it really did give me a sense of satisfaction defiling the altar and finally being able to whip the a** of an ancient Tevinter Magister, even if he was in darkspawn form - then the writers went and ruined it for me by doing the soul jump thing again - damn it.

[Myusha]

You can connect everything with everything.

Shartan worked with Andraste. Andraste is a human. Thus Shartan, one who worked with humans despite granting the Dalish the Dales, is a traitor and not a hero.

Merrill uses Blood Magic. Blood Magic was created by Tevinter Old Gods. Thus she is also a traitor to the Dalish.

Tamlen became a Darkspawn. Darkspawn are creations of the Old Gods, and Tevinter Magisters. Thus he is not to be pitied, but loathed for his pathetic betrayal.

You can connect things in simple ways, but facts are what distinguish the truth between these connections. Shartan worked against Tevinter, and while human, Magisters were the oppressors of the Elven people, not humanity as a whole. And by working with Andraste he achieved that end.

Merrill practiced Blood Magic in an attempt to reclaim her clan's lore. She intended to use the very thing that destroyed her people, and rebuild with it.

Tamlen became a Darkspawn by accident.

Merrill approves of Rituals that endorse Forbidden, and possibly Blood-Related Magic regardless of what pantheon due to her curiosity. She has not once spoken out against Tevinter or Magisters. Possibly because, she herself is a Magister.