202 réponses à ce sujet

[General User]

111987 wrote...

General User wrote...

111987 wrote...

General User wrote...

IsaacShep wrote...

The question is are Quarians finally willing to acknowledge the simple fact Geth are conscious, intelligent race with the same rights as them and that this entire mess is no one but Quarian's fault and they got exactly what they deserved for trying to kill another race?

What if they are?  What if the entire quarian race collectively issues history's biggest mea culpa?  So what? 

How should the geth respond to that?  "Well, they said they were sorry and wrote us a lovely card.  Allright let's rip the heart of our civilization out and hand it to them on a silver platter (it really was a lovely card)!"

Rannoch =/= heart of Geth civilization

Of course Rannoch isn't the heart of geth civilization.  Like I said in the OP, Rannoch isn't of any particular value to the geth (except possibly sentimental value), but space-stations and asteroid-based industrial centers in the area, and the Mass relays that connect them, are the the heart of geth civilization.  And if the geth really want peace with the quarians then they are going to have to give up at least a portion of those.  And that's asking too much of anyone.

But like myself and other posters have said, if they all upload into their megastructure, they don't NEED any of those things.

There are a couple problems with that. First and foremost, it isn't strictly true. Even should the geth megastructure be completed and all geth upload into it, which is far from a sure cert for a number of reasons, the geth will still need to defend their new home. Part of that will mean retaining possession of strategic resources and part of that will mean controlling access to the megastructure (ie controlling the Relay route)

In fact, given the shear levels of industry a geth Dyson sphere would potentially be capable of, it is easily possible that the geth's appetite for territory and resources will increase after the completion of their megaporject.

[111987]

Izhalezan wrote...

111987 wrote...


They didn't really create a sapient species though. They created VI driven robots that became sentient. I doubt the Council would have punished them for being slavers in such a unique situation.

The Council did punish them though, the Quarians lost their embassy on the Citadel after it all came out.

The Council punished them for creating an AI, not for being slavers.

[Warlocomotf]

111987 wrote...

Izhalezan wrote...

111987 wrote...

IsaacShep wrote...

111987 wrote...

But seriously, chimpanzees are not the same as an AI machine. Everyone knows how dangerous an AI can become; no organic poses the same kind of threat.

Adolf Hitler says hi. And the entire human history as well. We can pose just as big threat to each other as machines.

Um, no. The Quarians didn't know the full capabilities of the Geth. For all they knew, the Geth could have caused a technological apocalypse, like what almost happened in Overlord.

They also realized they had created a sapient species which meant they were slavers and if the Council found out they'd be in serious trouble, amongst other things.

They didn't really create a sapient species though. They created VI driven robots that became sentient. I doubt the Council would have punished them for being slavers in such a unique situation.

Actually the Council removed the Quarian embassy from the Citadel and provided several other harsh penalties. Immediatly as well as unreasonable harshness in the continued future.

111987 wrote...

IsaacShep wrote...

111987 wrote...

Um, no. The Quarians didn't know the full capabilities of the Geth. For all they knew, the Geth could have caused a technological apocalypse, like what almost happened in Overlord.

So if we ever discover another intelligent race, one that can also fly for example (without technology), are we allowed to wipe them out "just in case"? After all we don't know them and if and/or what kind of a moral system they represent, not to mention natual advantage (being able to fly) over our species.

What are you talking about? That has nothing to do with this situation. An AI could cause a technological apocalypse destroying all advanced organic life. Can a flying intelligent species pose that great of a threat?

No.

It is written about the Protheans that they suppressed all alien life forms and intentionally, forcefully- prevented others from notable technological advancement.

Indeed the issue of encountering any sentient alien species is a difficult one- esspecially a sentient alien species with aggresive moral standards.

[Kaiser Shepard]

Mesina2 wrote...

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

As for the geth, the real question is whether we should help protect their megastructure for help in the war, or allow it to be destroyed so we can invite them to Earth.

wut?

Might as well have a couple of extra hands around to help rebuild Earth, to essentially allow them to become our client race.

[111987]

IsaacShep wrote...

111987 wrote...

What are you talking about? That has nothing to do with this situation. An AI could cause a technological apocalypse destroying all advanced organic life. Can a flying intelligent species pose that great of a threat?

Maybe not. Can US army wipe out Eskimos? Hell to the yes. Could we one day discover a race that surpasses us technologically in every way? Sure. Will we have the right to "kill 'em all just in case" only because they theoretically could destory us? Nope.

What aren't you getting here? Organics and AI are not comparable. The situations are completley different.

[Yakko77]

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

Mesina2 wrote...

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

As for the geth, the real question is whether we should help protect their megastructure for help in the war, or allow it to be destroyed so we can invite them to Earth.

wut?

Might as well have a couple of extra hands around to help rebuild Earth, to essentially allow them to become our client race.

Though not to the degree of the Quarians, humanity doesn't overly trust the Geth either.  Eden Prime alone would cause many if not most humans to balk at such a proposal.

[shepskisaac]

Who the hell cares if Quarians didn't intend to create an AI? They DID. And they wanted to kill it before the AI did anything to suggest it could be a threat. Like it or not, it doesn't matter taht Quarians didn't intend it. In the end, they wanted to destroy another self-aware race that didn't do anything bad yet and didn't even suggest it would. Their sole excuse was that it theoretically could.

[Izhalezan]

Mesina2 wrote...

Who makes diplomacy over internet? OK in this case, extranet.

Only thing that would happen is that it's gonna be shrug off as someone is trolling.

Plus, Geth probably either didn't think about that or though it's pretty dumb idea.

Extranets a good choice for trying to contact organics, I mean, look at what happened to Legion when he went to Eden Prime and asked if Shepard was around. Can't shoot you through the extranet.

[111987]

General User wrote...

111987 wrote...

General User wrote...

111987 wrote...

General User wrote...

IsaacShep wrote...

The question is are Quarians finally willing to acknowledge the simple fact Geth are conscious, intelligent race with the same rights as them and that this entire mess is no one but Quarian's fault and they got exactly what they deserved for trying to kill another race?

What if they are?  What if the entire quarian race collectively issues history's biggest mea culpa?  So what? 

How should the geth respond to that?  "Well, they said they were sorry and wrote us a lovely card.  Allright let's rip the heart of our civilization out and hand it to them on a silver platter (it really was a lovely card)!"

Rannoch =/= heart of Geth civilization

Of course Rannoch isn't the heart of geth civilization.  Like I said in the OP, Rannoch isn't of any particular value to the geth (except possibly sentimental value), but space-stations and asteroid-based industrial centers in the area, and the Mass relays that connect them, are the the heart of geth civilization.  And if the geth really want peace with the quarians then they are going to have to give up at least a portion of those.  And that's asking too much of anyone.

But like myself and other posters have said, if they all upload into their megastructure, they don't NEED any of those things.

There are a couple problems with that. First and foremost, it isn't strictly true. Even should the geth megastructure be completed and all geth upload into it, which is far from a sure cert for a number of reasons, the geth will still need to defend their new home. Part of that will mean retaining possession of strategic resources and part of that will mean controlling access to the megastructure (ie controlling the Relay route)

In fact, given the shear levels of industry a geth Dyson sphere would potentially be capable of, it is easily possible that the geth's appetite for territory and resources will increase after the completion of their megaporject.

One of the main purposes of a Dyson Sphere is to be self-sufficient. They get all the resources they need from the star, or nearby asteroids. They don't need to use the Relays at all because they will exist in one giant stationary station.

[Izhalezan]

111987 wrote...

The Council punished them for creating an AI, not for being slavers.

Yes, but if it hadn't been over creating a AI it would have been slavery, the Geth had achieved Sapience and the Quarians were their so called masters, that fits a defintion of slavery in ME.

[CroGamer002]

iOnlySignIn wrote...

Mesina2 wrote...

iOnlySignIn wrote...

No, it's not worth it. There is nothing that the Quarian can offer to the Galaxy which the Geth cannot.

The Quarians belong to history. They together with the Batarians embody the worst and most despicable qualities of organic sapients. Their final extinction will be a glorious milestone of progress for the whole Galaxy.

That's very bigot, barbaric and ignorant response.

Please don't talk about this subjects ever again.

Well here's some news for you.

Open-mindness =/= Having no strong opinion.

Civilized =/= Untouched by violence.

Knowledge =/= Indecisiveness.

*ahem*

You proposed a genocide.

If you don't see problem with that, there's no point to discuss with you.

The Geth killing the Quarians is tyrannicide. You may not endorse that because you're an unconditional pacifist,

lol

No, I just of find a genocide disgusting like anyone that has some morals.

or because you like the Quarians for some personal reasons (that I have no interest in knowing). But calling other people names merely shows your own insecurity, and telling others to shut up simply reveals that you're not confident enough in your own arguments.

Again, you proposed a genocide.

G E N O C I D E

Genocide.

[111987]

IsaacShep wrote...

Who the hell cares if Quarians didn't intend to create an AI? They DID. And they wanted to kill it before the AI did anything to suggest it could be a threat. Like it or not, it doesn't matter taht Quarians didn't intend it. In the end, they wanted to destroy another self-aware race that didn't do anything bad yet and didn't even suggest it would. Their sole excuse was that it theoretically could.

An AI can cause a technological apocalypse. While it might be the more moral thing to do to let them go free, if the Geth did upload into the extranet and take over control of all technology, there wouldn't be anyone left alive to hate the Quarians.

Sometimes people have to make hard choices. Obviously, you aren't that type of person. Nothing wrong with that, but someone has to be able to make the tough calls.

[Yakko77]

IsaacShep wrote...

Who the hell cares if Quarians didn't intend to create an AI? They DID. And they wanted to kill it before the AI did anything to suggest it could be a threat. Like it or not, it doesn't matter taht Quarians didn't intend it. In the end, they wanted to destroy another self-aware race that didn't do anything bad yet and didn't even suggest it would. Their sole excuse was that it theoretically could.

I'm not sure if anyone can justifiably argue the Quarians were right to kill the Geth once they gained self-awareness but the Geth were equally wrong to nearly do the same to the Quarians.  I think even Legion alludes to that sentiment in that the Morning War went too far.

Both sides did harm.  Both sides were wrong.  Both sides need to take a step back and start over.  Albeit 300 years late, Legion is IMO the first peace offering as he is able to communicate fairly effectively and speak for the Geth.

[Blooddrunk1004]

IsaacShep wrote...

Who the hell cares if Quarians didn't intend to create an AI? They DID. And they wanted to kill it before the AI did anything to suggest it could be a threat. Like it or not, it doesn't matter taht Quarians didn't intend it. In the end, they wanted to destroy another self-aware race that didn't do anything bad yet and didn't even suggest it would. Their sole excuse was that it theoretically could.

And how do you know what exactly were Geth doing before Quarians decided they should be killed?

[111987]

Izhalezan wrote...

111987 wrote...

The Council punished them for creating an AI, not for being slavers.

Yes, but if it hadn't been over creating a AI it would have been slavery, the Geth had achieved Sapience and the Quarians were their so called masters, that fits a defintion of slavery in ME.

It's a very unique situation. You have no way of knowing if that's true or not. Humans did AI research, but they only faced slight consequences.

[Warlocomotf]

111987 wrote...

Warlocomotf wrote...

Mesina2 wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

If the Geth really wanted peace, one would have thought they'd tell people about it. Rather than trolling the extranet and killing anyone who came near them.

Well to be fair, organics shoot Geth on sight.

So sending Geth diplomats is just a waste of ships and platforms.

Evidently the Geth are entirely capable of posting on the extranet. If the Geth wanted the message out that they want peace, they could have very easily done that.

And you think people would have believed them?

"Hello, this is the Geth collective. We wish for peace. To prove that this message indeed comes from the Geth, we will be sending a signal ship from within the Veil, coordinates [x,y,z] at time [t], towards [x2,y2,z2], at velocity [v].

We wish to negotiate the details of a peace treaty. This can either be done through a secure channel or by sending a ship to... [location] at time [t2] which will be given secure passage [etc].

[CroGamer002]

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

Mesina2 wrote...

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

As for the geth, the real question is whether we should help protect their megastructure for help in the war, or allow it to be destroyed so we can invite them to Earth.

wut?

Might as well have a couple of extra hands around to help rebuild Earth, to essentially allow them to become our client race.

1st they have no reason to help us to rebuild Earth, unless they want to.

2nd Quarains screwed up in having control over the Geth. And Cerberus.

[Kaiser Shepard]

Mesina2 wrote...

*ahem*

You proposed a genocide.

If you don't see problem with that, there's no point to discuss with you.

Again, you proposed a genocide.

G E N O C I D E

Genocide.

You say that as if it's necessarily a bad thing.

Modifié par Kaiser Shepard, 02 octobre 2011 - 06:36 .

[111987]

Warlocomotf wrote...

111987 wrote...

Warlocomotf wrote...

Mesina2 wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

If the Geth really wanted peace, one would have thought they'd tell people about it. Rather than trolling the extranet and killing anyone who came near them.

Well to be fair, organics shoot Geth on sight.

So sending Geth diplomats is just a waste of ships and platforms.

Evidently the Geth are entirely capable of posting on the extranet. If the Geth wanted the message out that they want peace, they could have very easily done that.

And you think people would have believed them?

"Hello, this is the Geth collective. We wish for peace. To prove that this message indeed comes from the Geth, we will be sending a signal ship from within the Veil, coordinates [x,y,z] at time [t], towards [x2,y2,z2], at velocity [v].

We wish to negotiate the details of a peace treaty. This can either be done through a secure channel or by sending a ship to... [location] at time [t2] which will be given secure passage [etc].

That proves what exactly? The message could be false, or a trap. Besides, why would the Geth want to associate with organics? They know how organics see them, and that co-existence wouldn't be possible. In their minds isolation is best for both parties.

[Kaiser Shepard]

Mesina2 wrote...

1st they have no reason to help us to rebuild Earth, unless they want to.

2nd Quarains screwed up in having control over the Geth. And Cerberus.

We wouldn't be controlling them, we'd merely invite them, our fellow sapients, to come and live on our planet. They seems to in desperate need of purpose and a culture, which we can easily provide them with.

Also, Cerberus succeeded in controlling the geth...

[JimiShep]

111987 wrote...

IsaacShep wrote...

Who the hell cares if Quarians didn't intend to create an AI? They DID. And they wanted to kill it before the AI did anything to suggest it could be a threat. Like it or not, it doesn't matter taht Quarians didn't intend it. In the end, they wanted to destroy another self-aware race that didn't do anything bad yet and didn't even suggest it would. Their sole excuse was that it theoretically could.

An AI can cause a technological apocalypse. While it might be the more moral thing to do to let them go free, if the Geth did upload into the extranet and take over control of all technology, there wouldn't be anyone left alive to hate the Quarians.

Sometimes people have to make hard choices. Obviously, you aren't that type of person. Nothing wrong with that, but someone has to be able to make the tough calls.

Dude that tough call didn't really end up being the right one, did it?

[Blooddrunk1004]

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

Also, Cerberus succeeded in controlling the geth...

They did and it failed.

[111987]

iOnlySignIn wrote...

111987 wrote...

What are you talking about? That has nothing to do with this situation. An AI could cause a technological apocalypse destroying all advanced organic life. Can a flying intelligent species pose that great of a threat?

The Quarians did not choose to wipe out the Geth because the Geth threatened a technological apocalypse.

The Geth may be technologically superior now, but not originally. Then were created by the Quarians, and hence technologically inferior to Quarians to begin with.

Slavemasters killed slaves because the slaves had started to learn to read or write. Reading or writing does not make the slaves more civilizaed or advanced than the slavemasters. It's merely an excuse used by the slavemasters to justify their actions. Same as Quarians who used Geth speech and sentience as an excuse.

All tyrants live in terrible fear of the people they repress. And out of this paranoid fear they take irrational and extreme actions.

You didn't post any evidence suggesting that the Quarians didn't attack the Geth because of the threat they posed. You just said the Quarian's didn't attack because of the threat of an AI, and elft it at that. Then you just posted some irrelevant analogy about slavers.

An AI doesn't have to have better weapons to pose a threat. If it uploads onto the extranet, the galaxy is screwed.