202 réponses à ce sujet

[CroGamer002]

Izhalezan wrote...

Mesina2 wrote...

Who makes diplomacy over internet? OK in this case, extranet.

Only thing that would happen is that it's gonna be shrug off as someone is trolling.

Plus, Geth probably either didn't think about that or though it's pretty dumb idea.

Extranets a good choice for trying to contact organics, I mean, look at what happened to Legion when he went to Eden Prime and asked if Shepard was around. Can't shoot you through the extranet.

Legion was caught on Eden Prime. Which means, Legion didn't wanted to be seen there.

Also, Legion was designed after Shepard was reported dead and considering that Eden Prime was attacked by Geth Heretics, while organics have no idea about Geth having diffrent factions, that would be simply idiotic thing to do.

And still, who would take someone seriously on Extranet presenting itself as Geth and asking if diseased Commander Shepard is on Eden Prime?

[Azbeszt]

Blooddrunk1004 wrote...

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

Also, Cerberus succeeded in controlling the geth...

They did and it failed.

David could control them, just not for Cerberus.
It was a success.

Modifié par Azbeszt, 02 octobre 2011 - 06:38 .

[Izhalezan]

111987 wrote...

 why would the Geth want to associate with organics? They know how organics see them, and that co-existence wouldn't be possible. In their minds isolation is best for both parties.

To the Geth; Allying with the organics and forging peace > trying to fight the Old Machines alone

[CroGamer002]

Warlocomotf wrote...

"Hello, this is the Geth collective. We wish for peace. To prove that this message indeed comes from the Geth, we will be sending a signal ship from within the Veil, coordinates [x,y,z] at time [t], towards [x2,y2,z2], at velocity [v].

We wish to negotiate the details of a peace treaty. This can either be done through a secure channel or by sending a ship to... [location] at time [t2] which will be given secure passage [etc].

Not convincing.

[111987]

JimiShep wrote...

111987 wrote...

IsaacShep wrote...

Who the hell cares if Quarians didn't intend to create an AI? They DID. And they wanted to kill it before the AI did anything to suggest it could be a threat. Like it or not, it doesn't matter taht Quarians didn't intend it. In the end, they wanted to destroy another self-aware race that didn't do anything bad yet and didn't even suggest it would. Their sole excuse was that it theoretically could.

An AI can cause a technological apocalypse. While it might be the more moral thing to do to let them go free, if the Geth did upload into the extranet and take over control of all technology, there wouldn't be anyone left alive to hate the Quarians.

Sometimes people have to make hard choices. Obviously, you aren't that type of person. Nothing wrong with that, but someone has to be able to make the tough calls.

Dude that tough call didn't really end up being the right one, did it?

That's the benefit of hindsight. It turns out the majority of Geth pose no threat to organics. But that was a slim chance, and the alternative was too severe to ignore.

[shepskisaac]

111987 wrote...

What aren't you getting here? Organics and AI are not comparable. The situations are completley different.

They are. Both are self-aware, they're fully concious. If in 1000 years, humans are capable of transfering their minds to computers, will we be 'inferior' as well to races that didn't achieve that yet?

Blooddrunk1004 wrote...

And how do you know what exactly were Geth doing before Quarians decided they should be killed?

And how do you know they were? We're discussing based on information we have so far. Unless there's some great revealtion "geth did wrong after achieving self-awareness" in ME3, nothing will change. I very doubt there will be any revelation of that sort, considering Tali & other Quarians would've mentioned it about 19283741692074 times by now to justify what they did to the Geth.

111987 wrote...

An AI can cause a technological apocalypse. While it might be the more moral thing to do to let them go free, if the Geth did upload into the extranet and take over control of all technology, there wouldn't be anyone left alive to hate the Quarians.

A more advanced race can cause technological apocalypse. What if after defeating the Reapers, a race from another Galaxy comes to Milky Way? A race technologically superior to the Milky Way civilization in every way, capable of taking over extranet in 1 second and with a weapon technologically capable of destroying an entire galaxy? If that race doesn't show any signs of hostility will the Milky Way civilization be morally allowed to kill them just because in theory and by the 'stats' of their weapons they're capable of destroying Milky Way?

111987 wrote...

Sometimes people have to make hard choices. Obviously, you aren't that type of person. Nothing wrong with that, but someone has to be able to make the tough calls.

Yeah, Hitler made a "hard choice" too trying wipe out Jews because he thought they posessed a threat to the rest of humanity.

Modifié par IsaacShep, 02 octobre 2011 - 06:41 .

[111987]

Izhalezan wrote...

111987 wrote...

 why would the Geth want to associate with organics? They know how organics see them, and that co-existence wouldn't be possible. In their minds isolation is best for both parties.

To the Geth; Allying with the organics and forging peace > trying to fight the Old Machines alone

How long did the Geth even know about the Reapers though? Just a few years, if that, before the events of ME1?

And after ME1, when the Geth would welcome allies, the Heretic Geth had already soured organic perceptions of the Geth to form some sort of alliance.

[BatmanPWNS]

Is it really worth making another thread about this? (See what I did there)

You could have searched for the previous 100's.

[111987]

IsaacShep wrote...

They are. Both are self-aware, they're fully concious. If in 1000 years, humans are capable of transfering their minds to computers, will we be 'inferior' as well to races that didn't achieve that yet?

*Sigh*

The capabilities of an organic and the capabilities of an AI are totally different. If you can't see that, there's no point in this discussion.

IsaacShep wrote...

A more advanced race can cause technological apocalypse. What if after defeating the Reapers, a race from another Galaxy comes to Milky Way? A race technologically superior to the Milky Way civilization in every way, capable of taking over extranet in 1 second and with a weapon technologically capable of destroying an entire galaxy? If that race doesn't show any signs of hostility will the Milky Way civilization be morally allowed to kill them just because in theory and by the 'stats' of their weapons they're capable of destroying Milky Way?

Different situation, making your example completely irrelevant. 1). that race is already that advanced, so fighting them would be suicide. 2). they are organic. 3). you already know they intend no harm to others. The Quarians didn't know that about the Geth and waiting to find out could have doomed the galaxy.

IsaacShep wrote...
]Yeah, Hitler made a "hard choice" too trying wipe out Jews because he thought they posessed a threat to the rest of humanity.

Someone really needs to buff up on their history...you clearly have no idea what you're talking about here.

Modifié par 111987, 02 octobre 2011 - 06:51 .

[Izhalezan]

111987 wrote...

How long did the Geth even know about the Reapers though? Just a few years, if that, before the events of ME1?

And after ME1, when the Geth would welcome allies, the Heretic Geth had already soured organic perceptions of the Geth to form some sort of alliance.

Indeed, peace with organics is gonna be a uphill battle, but peace won't come if you don't even start trying to mend relations. In the end they'll want to be left to their own devices but for now they want to help us fight the Reapers.

[General User]

111987 wrote...
One of the main purposes of a Dyson Sphere is to be self-sufficient. They get all the resources they need from the star, or nearby asteroids. They don't need to use the Relays at all because they will exist in one giant stationary station.

Again, that's not strictly true. A Dyson Sphere gets all the energy it needs to be self-sufficient from a star. But unless the civilization has a way to synthesize matter (an advanced fusion technology perhaps) the Dyson Sphere civilization still needs external natural resources.

And all that even ignores the concept of "want." Remember, for the geth, the unity of mind represented by their mega project is only the first step, we (and I think even they) don't know what the next step will be.

What if the geth want to build another Dyson Sphere (perhaps to explore the concept of independent thought and different experiences/perspectives)? What if the geth decide to build a fleet of ships to explore the universe? What if the geth decide organics can't be trusted and build a fleet of warships? What if the geth want to do any of one million and one other things?

The fact is there's no way for anyone (the geth perhaps most of all) to tell what the geth will do when and if their megastructure is complete and they all upload into it. With that in mind, I think simply closing up shop and hanging out a "Do Not Disturb" sign for all eternity is actually one of the lesser probabilities.  Certainly one of the more disappointing.

Modifié par General User, 02 octobre 2011 - 06:47 .

[CroGamer002]

iOnlySignIn wrote...

Semantics. I won't argue with you if you choose to obsess over a single word. Even if it's your favorite word.

FYI Humans by the time of the 21st century have already committed genocide over thousands of species. And none of those species, e.g. the Dodo, attempted to enslave the entire Human race.

What the hell is your point there?

Also it appears you think that killing your slavemasters who try to kill your entire species because you asked "Do I have a soul" is wrong. Man I'd hate to be your friend or countryman in times or crisis or war! :-D

So wait, if some people have your entire race as slaves, you have every right to commit a complete genocide?

WHAT IS WRONG WITH YOU?!

Genocide can be justified only if you are fighting for survival( Reapers vs organics).

And how were non-combatants threat to the Geth survival? They weren't!

And even the Geth acknowledge what they did to Quarians is very wrong.
Their only excuse is that they didn't know that they were doing th wrong thing at the time.
But that's just an excuse, not justification.
And they know that and not pretending they're the good guys in that war.

[JimiShep]

111987 wrote...

JimiShep wrote...

111987 wrote...

IsaacShep wrote...

Who the hell cares if Quarians didn't intend to create an AI? They DID. And they wanted to kill it before the AI did anything to suggest it could be a threat. Like it or not, it doesn't matter taht Quarians didn't intend it. In the end, they wanted to destroy another self-aware race that didn't do anything bad yet and didn't even suggest it would. Their sole excuse was that it theoretically could.

An AI can cause a technological apocalypse. While it might be the more moral thing to do to let them go free, if the Geth did upload into the extranet and take over control of all technology, there wouldn't be anyone left alive to hate the Quarians.

Sometimes people have to make hard choices. Obviously, you aren't that type of person. Nothing wrong with that, but someone has to be able to make the tough calls.

Dude that tough call didn't really end up being the right one, did it?

That's the benefit of hindsight. It turns out the majority of Geth pose no threat to organics. But that was a slim chance, and the alternative was too severe to ignore.

I do agree on hindsight. In which convo does it say that the Geth would have killed all other organics if they took control of the galaxies tech?

[Yakko77]

Izhalezan wrote...

111987 wrote...

How long did the Geth even know about the Reapers though? Just a few years, if that, before the events of ME1?

And after ME1, when the Geth would welcome allies, the Heretic Geth had already soured organic perceptions of the Geth to form some sort of alliance.

Indeed, peace with organics is gonna be a uphill battle, but peace won't come if you don't even start trying to mend relations. In the end they'll want to be left to their own devices but for now they want to help us fight the Reapers.

This.

I don't think the Geth would've created Legion if they wanted otherwise.

[Blooddrunk1004]

IsaacShep wrote...

And how do you know they were? We're discussing based on information we have so far. Unless there's some great revealtion "geth did wrong after achieving self-awareness" in ME3, nothing will change. I very doubt there will be any revelation of that sort, considering Tali & other Quarians would've mentioned it about 19283741692074 times by now to justify what they did to the Geth.

Either way they still pose the threat when they became self aware. Imagine if you would create exactly same machine like Geth for V.I purpose, suddenly it would became self- aware and he would start doing his own things. How would know if  you could trust it, if you never programed him this way. It might bring you food during daylight but it might strangle you when you sleep. I don't see Quarians situation no different then this.

Modifié par Blooddrunk1004, 02 octobre 2011 - 06:51 .

[111987]

JimiShep wrote...

111987 wrote...

JimiShep wrote...

111987 wrote...

IsaacShep wrote...

Who the hell cares if Quarians didn't intend to create an AI? They DID. And they wanted to kill it before the AI did anything to suggest it could be a threat. Like it or not, it doesn't matter taht Quarians didn't intend it. In the end, they wanted to destroy another self-aware race that didn't do anything bad yet and didn't even suggest it would. Their sole excuse was that it theoretically could.

An AI can cause a technological apocalypse. While it might be the more moral thing to do to let them go free, if the Geth did upload into the extranet and take over control of all technology, there wouldn't be anyone left alive to hate the Quarians.

Sometimes people have to make hard choices. Obviously, you aren't that type of person. Nothing wrong with that, but someone has to be able to make the tough calls.

Dude that tough call didn't really end up being the right one, did it?

That's the benefit of hindsight. It turns out the majority of Geth pose no threat to organics. But that was a slim chance, and the alternative was too severe to ignore.

I do agree on hindsight. In which convo does it say that the Geth would have killed all other organics if they took control of the galaxies tech?

There isn't a convo that says that, but that is a general threat posed by all AI (see Overlord).

[111987]

Izhalezan wrote...

111987 wrote...

How long did the Geth even know about the Reapers though? Just a few years, if that, before the events of ME1?

And after ME1, when the Geth would welcome allies, the Heretic Geth had already soured organic perceptions of the Geth to form some sort of alliance.

Indeed, peace with organics is gonna be a uphill battle, but peace won't come if you don't even start trying to mend relations. In the end they'll want to be left to their own devices but for now they want to help us fight the Reapers.

That's what Legion is for.

[shepskisaac]

111987 wrote...
 3). you already know they intend no harm to others.

H-O-W? The Milki Way civilization doesn't know that race, what morals it has and if they came to 'kill all' or just have a good party. Quarians didn't wait to get to know the Geth, they said "we're gonna kill them just in case, even if Geth actually don't want to harm Quarians".

111987 wrote...
Someone really needs to buff up on their history...you clearly have no idea what you're talking about here.

Neither do you. And your morals are more than questionable.

[CroGamer002]

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

We wouldn't be controlling them, we'd merely invite them, our fellow sapients, to come and live on our planet. They seems to in desperate need of purpose and a culture, which we can easily provide them with.

No, building that mega-structure or joining the Reapers is the was for them to get purpose.
If that mega-structure got destroyed, Geth would just find some other place to build it all over again.

They have time and less then 1% of the galaxy is discovered.

Also, Cerberus succeeded in controlling the geth...

No, they succeed in making David Archer to control them.
And he killed everyone but his brother.
And only people like David can control the Geth.


Overlord is another Cerberus failure.

[111987]

General User wrote...

111987 wrote...
One of the main purposes of a Dyson Sphere is to be self-sufficient. They get all the resources they need from the star, or nearby asteroids. They don't need to use the Relays at all because they will exist in one giant stationary station.

Again, that's not strictly true. A Dyson Sphere gets all the energy it needs to be self-sufficient from a star. But unless the civilization has a way to synthesize matter (an advanced fusion technology perhaps) the Dyson Sphere civilization still needs external natural resources.

And all that even ignores the concept of "want." Remember, for the geth, the unity of mind represented by their mega project is only the first step, we (and I think even they) don't know what the next step will be.

What if the geth want to build another Dyson Sphere (perhaps to explore the concept of independent thought and different experiences/perspectives)? What if the geth decide to build a fleet of ships to explore the universe? What if the geth decide organics can't be trusted and build a fleet of warships? What if the geth want to do any of one million and one other things?

The fact is there's no way for anyone (the geth perhaps most of all) to tell what the geth will do when and if their megastructure is complete and they all upload into it. With that in mind, I think simply closing up shop and hanging out a "Do Not Disturb" sign for all eternity is actually one of the lesser probabilities.  Certainly one of the more disappointing.

It's all speculation. Based off what we know RIGHT NOW, the Geth only want one, self-sufficient Dyson Sphere. They mined all their resources from asteroids, so there's no conflict with the Quarians there.

[CroGamer002]

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

Mesina2 wrote...

*ahem*

You proposed a genocide.

If you don't see problem with that, there's no point to discuss with you.

Again, you proposed a genocide.

G E N O C I D E

Genocide.

You say that as if it's necessarily a bad thing.

Unless it's a fight for survival( Reapers vs organics), it is.

And Geth sure as hell didn't need to kill majority of Quarians.

[111987]

IsaacShep wrote...

111987 wrote...
 3). you already know they intend no harm to others.

H-O-W? The Milki Way civilization doesn't know that race, what morals it has and if they came to 'kill all' or just have a good party. Quarians didn't wait to get to know the Geth, they said "we're gonna kill them just in case, even if Geth actually don't want to harm Quarians".

111987 wrote...
Someone really needs to buff up on their history...you clearly have no idea what you're talking about here.

Neither do you. And your morals are more than questionable.

This really is such a pointless example. It has nothing to do with anything.

Hitler did not kill the jews because he thought they posed a threat to humanity.

[shepskisaac]

Blooddrunk1004 wrote...

Either way they still pose the threat when they became self aware. Imagine if you would create exactly same machine like Geth for V.I purpose, suddenly it would became self- aware and he would start doing his own things. How would know if  you could trust it, if you never programed him this way. It might bring you food during daylight but it might strangle you when you sleep. I don't see Quarians situation no different then this.

I wouldn't know. Just like I wouldn't know if a newly discovered race is paceful or not. Just like I don't know if my always-nice neighbour is actually always-nice or a serial killer who just waits till I invite him to sleep over so he can kill me in sleep. Does this give me the right to kill him just in case? Kill all humans just in case because in theory they all could kill me in sleep? Kill the entire newly discovered race just in case it aint' actually paceful? Kill the self-aware Geth just in case?

111987 wrote...

Hitler did not kill the jews because he thought they posed a threat to humanity.

Yes, he also thought they were inferior race. BTW, you didn't answer 'advanced race from another galaxy' example. I repeat, Milky Way civilization doesn't know that race. Does the Milky Way civilization has the right to kill that race 'just in case'?

Modifié par IsaacShep, 02 octobre 2011 - 07:01 .

[JimiShep]

[/quote]

There isn't a convo that says that, but that is a general threat posed by all AI (see Overlord).

[/quote]

 Just because it is a general threat doesn't mean it's going to happen... Are you assuming that Al's and Organics cannot co exsist?