202 réponses à ce sujet

[111987]

JimiShep wrote...


 Just because it is a general threat doesn't mean it's going to happen... Are you assuming that Al's and Organics cannot co exsist?

It's a choice between possibly co-existing, or possibly damning the entire galaxy.  You can make cases for either one, but choosing to try and eliminate the threat doesn't mean Quarians should be condemned to genocide, like some people here believe.

I am a strong advocate for a Geth-Quarian peace NOW, but at the time, I believe the Quarians took the best option available to them at the time.

Modifié par 111987, 02 octobre 2011 - 07:01 .

[Warlocomotf]

111987 wrote...

That proves what exactly? The message could be false, or a trap. Besides, why would the Geth want to associate with organics? They know how organics see them, and that co-existence wouldn't be possible. In their minds isolation is best for both parties.

It proves that the Geth have an effective means of opening up a means of communication with the council without the risk of being attacked in the process. If the Geth wanted peace, they could have easily sent that message.

It proves that the Geth are not interested in peace.

[111987]

IsaacShep wrote...

111987 wrote...

Hitler did not kill the jews because he thought they posed a threat to humanity.

Yes, he also thought they were inferior race. BTW, you didn't answer 'advanced race from another galaxy' example. I repeat, Milky Way civilization doesn't know that race. Does the Milky Way civilization has the right to kill that race 'just in case'?

Ugh, he killed them because they were inferior, not because they threatened the rest of organic life in the galaxy! Totally different situations.

I didn't answer your example because it is completley irrelevant. i already pointed out why the situations are not the same. No, you would not kill this new race, because if they had already entered the Milky Way Galaxy and not attacked others, that suggests they aren't hostile. The Quarians did not know if the geth were hostile because they are AI's.

[111987]

Warlocomotf wrote...

111987 wrote...

That proves what exactly? The message could be false, or a trap. Besides, why would the Geth want to associate with organics? They know how organics see them, and that co-existence wouldn't be possible. In their minds isolation is best for both parties.

It proves that the Geth have an effective means of opening up a means of communication with the council without the risk of being attacked in the process. If the Geth wanted peace, they could have easily sent that message.

It proves that the Geth are not interested in peace.

No, that's just a conclusion you've reached without looking at any other evidence. They could have sent that message, but ultimately, would anyone have trusted them? Probably not.

The existence of Legion proves they do want peace, and organic cooperation.

[Blooddrunk1004]

IsaacShep wrote...

I wouldn't know. Just like I wouldn't know if a newly discovered race is paceful or not. Just like I don't know if my always-nice neighbour is actually always-nice or a serial killer who just waits till I invite him to sleep over so he can kill me in sleep. Does this give me the right to kill him just in case? Kill all humans just in case because in theory they all could kill me in sleep? Kill the entire newly discovered race just in case it aint' actually paceful? Kill the self-aware Geth just in case?

Actualy it does give you right too disconnect him, it's a machine in the end and you are his creator aswell. Also why are you bringing new discovered race into this? Geth were created, not discovered!

Modifié par Blooddrunk1004, 02 octobre 2011 - 07:09 .

[JimiShep]

111987 wrote...

JimiShep wrote...


 Just because it is a general threat doesn't mean it's going to happen... Are you assuming that Al's and Organics cannot co exsist?

It's a choice between possibly co-existing, or possibly damning the entire galaxy.  You can make cases for either one, but choosing to try and eliminate the threat doesn't mean Quarians should be condemned to genocide, like some people here believe.

I am a strong advocate for a Geth-Quarian peace NOW, but at the time, I believe the Quarians took the best option available to them at the time.

Honestly I agree, it is absurb that the Quarians should be condemned to genocide for their actions. I have to disagree that it was the "best" option they had at the time. 

Why couldn't a co exsistence have started in the beginning??? Organics fear AI's... this fear caused a great rift between the 2 parties.

Who knows what kind of Tech advances could've come from both groups working together... I will say that both groups could be stronger.

[111987]

JimiShep wrote...

111987 wrote...

JimiShep wrote...


 Just because it is a general threat doesn't mean it's going to happen... Are you assuming that Al's and Organics cannot co exsist?

It's a choice between possibly co-existing, or possibly damning the entire galaxy.  You can make cases for either one, but choosing to try and eliminate the threat doesn't mean Quarians should be condemned to genocide, like some people here believe.

I am a strong advocate for a Geth-Quarian peace NOW, but at the time, I believe the Quarians took the best option available to them at the time.

Honestly I agree, it is absurb that the Quarians should be condemned to genocide for their actions. I have to disagree that it was the "best" option they had at the time. 

Why couldn't a co exsistence have started in the beginning??? Organics fear AI's... this fear caused a great rift between the 2 parties.

Who knows what kind of Tech advances could've come from both groups working together... I will say that both groups could be stronger.

Of course the benefits could have been great, but in my mind, the risk was too great. I'm happy to agree to disagree though. I think it's two equally valid ways of looking at the situation.

[General User]

111987 wrote...

General User wrote...

111987 wrote...
One of the main purposes of a Dyson Sphere is to be self-sufficient. They get all the resources they need from the star, or nearby asteroids. They don't need to use the Relays at all because they will exist in one giant stationary station.

Again, that's not strictly true. A Dyson Sphere gets all the energy it needs to be self-sufficient from a star. But unless the civilization has a way to synthesize matter (an advanced fusion technology perhaps) the Dyson Sphere civilization still needs external natural resources.

And all that even ignores the concept of "want." Remember, for the geth, the unity of mind represented by their mega project is only the first step, we (and I think even they) don't know what the next step will be.

What if the geth want to build another Dyson Sphere (perhaps to explore the concept of independent thought and different experiences/perspectives)? What if the geth decide to build a fleet of ships to explore the universe? What if the geth decide organics can't be trusted and build a fleet of warships? What if the geth want to do any of one million and one other things?

The fact is there's no way for anyone (the geth perhaps most of all) to tell what the geth will do when and if their megastructure is complete and they all upload into it. With that in mind, I think simply closing up shop and hanging out a "Do Not Disturb" sign for all eternity is actually one of the lesser probabilities.  Certainly one of the more disappointing.

It's all speculation. Based off what we know RIGHT NOW, the Geth only want one, self-sufficient Dyson Sphere. They mined all their resources from asteroids, so there's no conflict with the Quarians there.

From the geth's perspective there's no conflict with the quarians period.  As far as the geth are concerned that war has been over for some 300 years.  But to the quarians the war is still very much ongoing.  What we have right now between the geth and the quarians is not peace, but rather the absence of active war. 

Hence the question I'm trying to raise; is an actual peace between the quarians and geth even possible?  And, even if it is, is it even desirable from the geth's perspective?  Since the geth have pretty much all they could want as is, and a real peace with the quarians would require the geth to give up things that are of real immediate value to them (many of the asteroids they draw resources from being just one example).

[shepskisaac]

111987 wrote...

I didn't answer your example because it is completley irrelevant. i already pointed out why the situations are not the same. No, you would not kill this new race, because if they had already entered the Milky Way Galaxy and not attacked others, that suggests they aren't hostile. The Quarians did not know if the geth were hostile because they are AI's.

But the Geth didn't attack the Quarians when they gained self-awareness. Instead, they proceeded to asking philosophical questions. They didn't even mount any revolt against slavery. They were all nice and whatnot, but Quarians still decided to kill them 'just in case'.

Blooddrunk1004 wrote...

Actualy it does give you right too disconnect him, it's a machine in the end.

Can I disconnect my neighbour? He's just a collection of elements stitched together just like a machine. The elements are different, can be as easily disconnected.

Blooddrunk1004 wrote...
Also why are you bringing new discovered race into this? Geth were created, not discovered!

Becuase just as it would be with a newly discovered race, Quarians didn't know Geth intentions, just like they wouldn't know newly discovered race's intentions. Going with with the logic they used to kill Geth, they should try to kill any new race since that race may pose a threat.

Modifié par IsaacShep, 02 octobre 2011 - 07:15 .

[Warlocomotf]

111987 wrote...

Warlocomotf wrote...

111987 wrote...

That proves what exactly? The message could be false, or a trap. Besides, why would the Geth want to associate with organics? They know how organics see them, and that co-existence wouldn't be possible. In their minds isolation is best for both parties.

It proves that the Geth have an effective means of opening up a means of communication with the council without the risk of being attacked in the process. If the Geth wanted peace, they could have easily sent that message.

It proves that the Geth are not interested in peace.

No, that's just a conclusion you've reached without looking at any other evidence. They could have sent that message, but ultimately, would anyone have trusted them? Probably not.

The existence of Legion proves they do want peace, and organic cooperation.

Legion's existence proves that the Geth do not think their chances against the Reapers are very good without outside help. Legion was not sent to Shepard to make peace with the Galaxy, Legion was sent to Shepard because they have a common enemy. Legion himself says this quite clearly.

Beyond that, if Shepard asks "Will you attack organics"- than whatever the true answer is; the anwser that will be given is always going to be no. Because even if the answer is yes, being honest would cost them the opportunity of cooperation against the reaper threat. Being dishonest would cost them absolutely nothing.

[111987]

General User wrote...

111987 wrote...

General User wrote...

111987 wrote...
One of the main purposes of a Dyson Sphere is to be self-sufficient. They get all the resources they need from the star, or nearby asteroids. They don't need to use the Relays at all because they will exist in one giant stationary station.

Again, that's not strictly true. A Dyson Sphere gets all the energy it needs to be self-sufficient from a star. But unless the civilization has a way to synthesize matter (an advanced fusion technology perhaps) the Dyson Sphere civilization still needs external natural resources.

And all that even ignores the concept of "want." Remember, for the geth, the unity of mind represented by their mega project is only the first step, we (and I think even they) don't know what the next step will be.

What if the geth want to build another Dyson Sphere (perhaps to explore the concept of independent thought and different experiences/perspectives)? What if the geth decide to build a fleet of ships to explore the universe? What if the geth decide organics can't be trusted and build a fleet of warships? What if the geth want to do any of one million and one other things?

The fact is there's no way for anyone (the geth perhaps most of all) to tell what the geth will do when and if their megastructure is complete and they all upload into it. With that in mind, I think simply closing up shop and hanging out a "Do Not Disturb" sign for all eternity is actually one of the lesser probabilities.  Certainly one of the more disappointing.

It's all speculation. Based off what we know RIGHT NOW, the Geth only want one, self-sufficient Dyson Sphere. They mined all their resources from asteroids, so there's no conflict with the Quarians there.

From the geth's perspective there's no conflict with the quarians period.  As far as the geth are concerned that war has been over for some 300 years.  But to the quarians the war is still very much ongoing.  What we have right now between the geth and the quarians is not peace, but rather the absence of active war. 

Hence the question I'm trying to raise; is an actual peace between the quarians and geth even possible?  And, even if it is, is it even desirable from the geth's perspective?  Since the geth have pretty much all they could want as is, and a real peace with the quarians would require the geth to give up things that are of real immediate value to them (many of the asteroids they draw resources from being just one example).

Would the Quarians really not be willing to let the Geth mine asteroids in the system in exchange for all their planets back?

Besides we don't even know where exactly the Dyson Sphere is. It could be in an entirely different, uninhabited system beyond the Perseus Veil.

[111987]

IsaacShep wrote...

111987 wrote...

I didn't answer your example because it is completley irrelevant. i already pointed out why the situations are not the same. No, you would not kill this new race, because if they had already entered the Milky Way Galaxy and not attacked others, that suggests they aren't hostile. The Quarians did not know if the geth were hostile because they are AI's.

But the Geth didn't attack the Quarians when they gained self-awareness. Instead, they proceeded to asking philosophical questions. They didn't even mount any revolt against slavery. They were all nice and whatnot, but Quarians still decided to kill them 'just in case'.

The Geth easily could have decided later to attack the Quarians. Like I said, it's dealing with a complete unknown, as AI are not common in the galaxy. We also don't know how long the Geth were self-aware before the attacks.

[JimiShep]

Blooddrunk1004 wrote...

IsaacShep wrote...

I wouldn't know. Just like I wouldn't know if a newly discovered race is paceful or not. Just like I don't know if my always-nice neighbour is actually always-nice or a serial killer who just waits till I invite him to sleep over so he can kill me in sleep. Does this give me the right to kill him just in case? Kill all humans just in case because in theory they all could kill me in sleep? Kill the entire newly discovered race just in case it aint' actually paceful? Kill the self-aware Geth just in case?

Actualy it does give you right too disconnect him, it's a machine in the end and you are his creator aswell. Also why are you bringing new discovered race into this? Geth were created, not discovered!

 I do not agree with how Isaacshep is trying to get his point across, but your not making any sense either! Are you saying that all creators should have to power to destroy their creations? Creations should not grow and advance on their own? Even if these creations are self-aware and intellegent are you trying to play a god like role?

[JimiShep]

111987 wrote...

JimiShep wrote...

111987 wrote...

JimiShep wrote...


 Just because it is a general threat doesn't mean it's going to happen... Are you assuming that Al's and Organics cannot co exsist?

It's a choice between possibly co-existing, or possibly damning the entire galaxy.  You can make cases for either one, but choosing to try and eliminate the threat doesn't mean Quarians should be condemned to genocide, like some people here believe.

I am a strong advocate for a Geth-Quarian peace NOW, but at the time, I believe the Quarians took the best option available to them at the time.

Honestly I agree, it is absurb that the Quarians should be condemned to genocide for their actions. I have to disagree that it was the "best" option they had at the time. 

Why couldn't a co exsistence have started in the beginning??? Organics fear AI's... this fear caused a great rift between the 2 parties.

Who knows what kind of Tech advances could've come from both groups working together... I will say that both groups could be stronger.

Of course the benefits could have been great, but in my mind, the risk was too great. I'm happy to agree to disagree though. I think it's two equally valid ways of looking at the situation.

There we go.. honestly that's all i was looking for! Thanks for making my day more intersting! Both ways are very valid when looking at the situation.

[Warlocomotf]

111987 wrote...

Would the Quarians really not be willing to let the Geth mine asteroids in the system in exchange for all their planets back?

Besides we don't even know where exactly the Dyson Sphere is. It could be in an entirely different, uninhabited system beyond the Perseus Veil.

I know it is stated that a dyson sphere is a goal of the Geth, but is it said anywhere that they're already actively building one somewhere? From what dialog I read/heard it seemed like a future ultimate goal much more so than a current project.

Also, the Perseus Veil seems to me like the least ideal location for a Dyson Sphere (because of it's relatively non-clean space compared to other systems).

[shepskisaac]

111987 wrote...

The Geth easily could have decided later to attack the Quarians. Like I said, it's dealing with a complete unknown, as AI are not common in the galaxy.

A race from outside our Galaxy would be also a complete unknown.

111987 wrote...
We also don't know how long the Geth were self-aware before the attacks.

Yeah, the Quarians didn't bother checking anything, they just proceeded to killing the Geth. What an amazing race.

Modifié par IsaacShep, 02 octobre 2011 - 07:24 .

[111987]

Warlocomotf wrote...

111987 wrote...

Would the Quarians really not be willing to let the Geth mine asteroids in the system in exchange for all their planets back?

Besides we don't even know where exactly the Dyson Sphere is. It could be in an entirely different, uninhabited system beyond the Perseus Veil.

I know it is stated that a dyson sphere is a goal of the Geth, but is it said anywhere that they're already actively building one somewhere? From what dialog I read/heard it seemed like a future ultimate goal much more so than a current project.

Also, the Perseus Veil seems to me like the least ideal location for a Dyson Sphere (because of it's relatively non-clean space compared to other systems).

Well, Legion says they are 'building' their future, so I'm going to assume that means they are building their megastructure.

[General User]

111987 wrote...
Would the Quarians really not be willing to let the Geth mine asteroids in the system in exchange for all their planets back?

Absolutely not!  Because the Migrant Fleet would need those exact same resources to first transform into, and then sustain itself as a planet-based society.  Asking the geth and quarians to share resources and/or territory is just asking for trouble.  There's just too much bad blood, it would be too easy for a minor disagreement to blow up into a full scale war.

No, for a lasting peace the quarians and geth need separate, mutually defensible territories.  And in the Mass Effect Age, that means, at a minimum, a whole, intact starsytem.

111987 wrote...
Besides we don't even know where exactly the Dyson Sphere is. It could be in an entirely different, uninhabited system beyond the Perseus Veil.

The Dyson Sphere could be anywhere indeed.  Though I think it stands to reason that it would be around, or very close to a star with a mass relay just to facilitate the shear volume of material the geth would have to be moving into the area.

[Blooddrunk1004]

IsaacShep wrote...

Can I disconnect my neighbour? He's just a collection of elements stitched together just like a machine. The elements are different, can be as easily disconnected.

Becuase just as it would be with a newly discovered race, Quarians didn't know Geth intentions, just like they wouldn't know newly discovered race's intentions. Going with with the logic they used to kill Geth, they should try to kill any new race since that race may pose a threat.

Now you are just trolling with first sentence. You can disconnect him because:
1. It's a machine.
2. You created it.
3. No one will give a crap about it.

Don't compare Geth with newly discovered race. You are completely going off with your sentence. Meeting new species is completely different. Any person with brains would first try to be friend or at least neutral with them before they would atack each other.  Geth became self-aware and im pretty sure they did something too convince Quarians to kill them off.
War never happens without a reason.

[111987]

IsaacShep wrote...

111987 wrote...

The Geth easily could have decided later to attack the Quarians. Like I said, it's dealing with a complete unknown, as AI are not common in the galaxy.

A race from outside our Galaxy would be also a complete unknown.

111987 wrote...
We also don't know how long the Geth were self-aware before the attacks.

Yeah, the Quarians didn't bother checking anything, they just proceeded to killing the Geth. What an amazing race.

I don't know how else to say this...organic =/= AI. Legion says itself that judging another race how you would judge your own is racist and wrong.

The Quarians tried to reprogram the Geth, and failed. How are they supposed to check anyways? Ask the Geth if they're peaceful, and just trust that they won't attack?

Your problem is you aren't looking at this from the Quarian perspective at the time of the Geth uprising. Also, how can you judge a race by the actions of the military or government? Your close-mindeness and hatred is just sad...

[111987]

General User wrote...

111987 wrote...
Would the Quarians really not be willing to let the Geth mine asteroids in the system in exchange for all their planets back?

Absolutely not!  Because the Migrant Fleet would need those exact same resources to first transform into, and then sustain itself as a planet-based society.  Asking the geth and quarians to share resources and/or territory is just asking for trouble.  There's just too much bad blood, it would be too easy for a minor disagreement to blow up into a full scale war.

No, for a lasting peace the quarians and geth need separate, mutually defensible territories.  And in the Mass Effect Age, that means, at a minimum, a whole, intact starsytem.

111987 wrote...
Besides we don't even know where exactly the Dyson Sphere is. It could be in an entirely different, uninhabited system beyond the Perseus Veil.

The Dyson Sphere could be anywhere indeed.  Though I think it stands to reason that it would be around, or very close to a star with a mass relay just to facilitate the shear volume of material the geth would have to be moving into the area.

Who says the megastructure is even in the same system as Rannoch though? If they are in different but neighboring systems, there's no real issue. They don't have to interact at all if they don't wish too.

[Blooddrunk1004]

JimiShep wrote...

Blooddrunk1004 wrote...

IsaacShep wrote...

I wouldn't know. Just like I wouldn't know if a newly discovered race is paceful or not. Just like I don't know if my always-nice neighbour is actually always-nice or a serial killer who just waits till I invite him to sleep over so he can kill me in sleep. Does this give me the right to kill him just in case? Kill all humans just in case because in theory they all could kill me in sleep? Kill the entire newly discovered race just in case it aint' actually paceful? Kill the self-aware Geth just in case?

Actualy it does give you right too disconnect him, it's a machine in the end and you are his creator aswell. Also why are you bringing new discovered race into this? Geth were created, not discovered!

 I do not agree with how Isaacshep is trying to get his point across, but your not making any sense either! Are you saying that all creators should have to power to destroy their creations? Creations should not grow and advance on their own? Even if these creations are self-aware and intellegent are you trying to play a god like role?

Intelligent creations do not commit genocide and side with Mech- Cthulhus. And yes as long as it's my creation i can do whatever i want with them, deal with it.

Modifié par Blooddrunk1004, 02 octobre 2011 - 07:36 .

[shepskisaac]

Blooddrunk1004 wrote...
1. It's a machine.

So what?! In 1000 humans may be machines as well.

Blooddrunk1004 wrote...
2. You created it.

And parents create their children. Can they kill their children? Your point?

Blooddrunk1004 wrote...
3. No one will give a crap about it.

How about other geth? They don't view death the same as we do, yet they still have survival instict and care about other geth by keeping their memories.

Blooddrunk1004 wrote...
Don't compare Geth with newly discovered race. You are completely going off with your sentence. Meeting new species is completely different. Any person with brains would first try to be friend or at least neutral with them before they would atack each other. 

just like they should with the Geth. Instead, they decided without any proof Geth will surely be a threat to them.

Blooddrunk1004 wrote...
Geth became self-aware and im pretty sure they did something too convince Quarians to kill them off.
War never happens without a reason.

Oh really? Why aren't Quarians saying what Geth did to them then hmm? Why isn't Tali telling Shep what Geth did? She's obsessed with justifying Quarians' actions so what's the better way then reveal Geth did something bad? OR maybe stupid Quarians tried to kill another race because they got scared (without any actual proof of danger) and also because they tried to cover up before the Council that they created AI?

111987 wrote...
Your close-mindeness and hatred is just sad...

And your moral that another race can be killed withotu any proof of hostile intentions is just pathetic.

Blooddrunk1004 wrote...
Intelligent creations do not
commit genocide

Ohh that means Quarians are not intelligent because they wanted to commit genocide.

Blooddrunk1004 wrote...
and side with Mech- Cthulhus.

Only small part of Geth did that.

Blooddrunk1004 wrote...
And yes as long as it's my creation i can do whatever i want with them, deal with it.

You're just as 'smart' as the Quarians.

Modifié par IsaacShep, 02 octobre 2011 - 07:49 .