185 réponses à ce sujet

[Zkyire]

GodWood wrote...

IEatWhatIPoo wrote...
1 A) They don't condone slavery and yet they haven't stopped it. So then they're an apathetic race that sits back and lets their government enslave millions/billions. So **** them.

There are more slaves alive today then at any other point in human history.

That's because A) There are more humans alive today than in any point in history. And This world is not united under one government. The decisions of one government, one people do not dictate the policies of the rest of the world.

So comparing modern day Earth to the Batarians is not even a fair comparison.

Modifié par IEatWhatIPoo, 09 octobre 2011 - 11:55 .

[GodWood]

IEatWhatIPoo wrote...
That's because A) There are more humans alive today than in any point in history. And This world is not united under one government.

Nor is Khar'shan; the batarian homeworld.

[Zkyire]

GodWood wrote...

IEatWhatIPoo wrote...
That's because A) There are more humans alive today than in any point in history. And This world is not united under one government.

Nor is Khar'shan; the batarian homeworld.

Ah, didn't know that, so okey dokey lokey.

Modifié par IEatWhatIPoo, 09 octobre 2011 - 12:27 .

[Kusy]

I'm going to pour some gasoline over this fireplace...

It's the same thing with Muslims, people try to defend their culture with arguments such as "you can't judge the whole nation based on few terrorists". And those arguments are absolutely correct. I'm judging them based on the fact that in Arabic countries women are nothing more than any other property, you can get stoned for changing a religion to anything different than the present one, being gay is equal to being killed... and so on.

So, with Batarians. Some of them are terrorists, but all of them accept slavery, participate in it and consider it a good thing. Take your Batarian love and come at me bro.

[Prince Zeel]

I can't believe there is people so entrenched in the game, that they want to defend these loser batarians. My Shepard is a renegade and I dislike them.

Modifié par Prince Zeel, 09 octobre 2011 - 12:47 .

[Zkyire]

Prince Zeel wrote...

I can't believe there is people so entrenched in the game, that they want to defend these loser batarians. My Shepard is a renegade and I dislike them.

My Shepard is a paragon and hates 'em

[TCBC_Freak]

OmegaXI wrote...

TCBC_Freak wrote...

1.) YOU DON'T KNOW THAT THE BATARIAN PEOPLE CONDONE SLAVERY!!! You keep making this mass judgment about their whole people being in support of it but then are basically calling us slaver lovers for making a judgment based on the same lack of info that maybe they don't. You're a hypocrite.
2.) And bombs and bullets wont guaranty an end to slavery, there are still slaves in our world today despite many wars to end it. Peaceful solutions could bring about an end to it more easily, educating the Batarian people, sending spy's and the equivalent of what the Green Barret's did with winning hearts and minds could work just as well to end it.

And so the difference is that I'm not happy that I killed 210,000 slaves and killed some slavers (since not all 90,000 free people were slavers), where you on the other hand are happy you did it?

I win. I have the moral high ground. I'm not okay with murdering 210,000 innocent people, you are. Yeah it had to happen. it was going to happen anyway, but I hate that they died, you are glad they died because some slavers died too, I think I win.

Well you twist my words and say you have the high moral ground while you are defending the slavers. And If 300,000 people need to die to save billions then so be it, its war. Is it right? no, did it need to be done? yes

And please tell me where you got this naive idea that the Batarian people do not condone slavery since this sytem has been in place for their entire history with council space? But no you resort to calling me a racist just to feed your own delusions of your self rightiousness , "Oh I'm defending the race that most people dislike, I must be a saint."

Say what you want but all your doing is protecting their system of slavery, I have no idea what you think you won, but have fun with the "Prize". Have fun explaining to those poor people in the colonies that its not the batarians fault that a batarian slave raid attacked their colony, killed their family, and enslaved everyone who wasn't dead or near death. And enjoy going to bed at night knowing that your so rightious in defending those everyone dislikes at the expense of turning a blind eye to brutal injustice that their system has brought upon countless numbers of self aware creatures since long before humanity came along.

Try not to get a nose bleed from being so high up on your self rightiousness.

So you missed my point about 2. I don't want slavery in the Batarian lands.I just think condeming all Batarians is wrong and we can help them change without killing them. I'm sorry if you feel like I'm calling you a racist, that wasn't my goal. I was trying to point out that your view is racist; not you as a person. I am defending the Batarian people, not their government. Kind of how I'll defend the Krogan people, not their waring clans or treatment of women as a commodity.

Let me pose a question to you. Say you find a ship, on this ship is 100 slaves and 10 slavers. The slavers say if you attack the ship or try to board they will blow the ship and kill themselves and the slave rather then surrender. But if you let them leave they will go in peace and you can claim the slaves. Now imagine those slaves are all Batarians and the slavers are 8 humans and 2 asari....would you let them kill the slaves to get to the slavers?? I would let the slavers go to save the slaves. You've indecated that you would let the slaves die. I'm sorry, to me that means you're wrong. You judge the Batarians as a race, I don't. I judge their slavers and think they are wrong and need to be taken care of, but not at the expence of innocent lives. Edit: And before you say that their are no Asari slavers remember Nasana's sister....she was a slaver. And the Batarian's hire a lot of human slavers too, read the codex.

And I'm not just talking about the Arrival thing. Which I might add you were happy to do, as indecated in your other post. You are condeming the Batarian's as a whole. Arrival had to happen, they were dead no matter what as the reapers were coming. You revale in it.

And I admit I shouldn't have glotted about wining the moral high ground, I'm sorry, you don't deserve that. As a person you deserve respect, and I'm sorry.

Edit: And where do you get this cynacal idea that all Batarian's support slavery? You're blaming the slaves (as all Batarians are slaves to the government) for not taking out their masters, tell a black person their ancesters were slaves because they never stepped up and fought their masters, see how that goes... the Batarian people are controled in what they see and hear and never let out of their own space, they are all slaves.

Modifié par TCBC_Freak, 09 octobre 2011 - 01:09 .

[OmegaXI]

TCBC_Freak wrote...

OmegaXI wrote...

TCBC_Freak wrote...

1.) YOU DON'T KNOW THAT THE BATARIAN PEOPLE CONDONE SLAVERY!!! You keep making this mass judgment about their whole people being in support of it but then are basically calling us slaver lovers for making a judgment based on the same lack of info that maybe they don't. You're a hypocrite.
2.) And bombs and bullets wont guaranty an end to slavery, there are still slaves in our world today despite many wars to end it. Peaceful solutions could bring about an end to it more easily, educating the Batarian people, sending spy's and the equivalent of what the Green Barret's did with winning hearts and minds could work just as well to end it.

And so the difference is that I'm not happy that I killed 210,000 slaves and killed some slavers (since not all 90,000 free people were slavers), where you on the other hand are happy you did it?

I win. I have the moral high ground. I'm not okay with murdering 210,000 innocent people, you are. Yeah it had to happen. it was going to happen anyway, but I hate that they died, you are glad they died because some slavers died too, I think I win.

Well you twist my words and say you have the high moral ground while you are defending the slavers. And If 300,000 people need to die to save billions then so be it, its war. Is it right? no, did it need to be done? yes

And please tell me where you got this naive idea that the Batarian people do not condone slavery since this sytem has been in place for their entire history with council space? But no you resort to calling me a racist just to feed your own delusions of your self rightiousness , "Oh I'm defending the race that most people dislike, I must be a saint."

Say what you want but all your doing is protecting their system of slavery, I have no idea what you think you won, but have fun with the "Prize". Have fun explaining to those poor people in the colonies that its not the batarians fault that a batarian slave raid attacked their colony, killed their family, and enslaved everyone who wasn't dead or near death. And enjoy going to bed at night knowing that your so rightious in defending those everyone dislikes at the expense of turning a blind eye to brutal injustice that their system has brought upon countless numbers of self aware creatures since long before humanity came along.

Try not to get a nose bleed from being so high up on your self rightiousness.

So you missed my point about 2. I don't want slavery in the Batarian lands.I just think condeming all Batarians is wrong and we can help them change without killing them. I'm sorry if you feel like I'm calling you a racist, that wasn't my goal. I was trying to point out that your view is racist; not you as a person. I am defending the Batarian people, not their government. Kind of how I'll defend the Krogan people, not their waring clans or treatment of women as a commodity.

Let me pose a question to you. Say you find a ship, on this ship is 100 slaves and 10 slavers. The slavers say if you attack the ship or try to board they will blow the ship and kill themselves and the slave rather then surrender. But if you let them leave they will go in peace and you can claim the slaves. Now imagine those slaves are all Batarians and the slavers are 8 humans and 2 asari....would you let them kill the slaves to get to the slavers?? I would let the slavers go to save the slaves. You've indecated that you would let the slaves die. I'm sorry, to me that means you're wrong. You judge the Batarians as a race, I don't. I judge their slavers and think they are wrong and need to be taken care of, but not at the expence of innocent lives. Edit: And before you say that their are no Asari slavers remember Nasana's sister....she was a slaver. And the Batarian's hire a lot of human slavers too, read the codex.

And I'm not just talking about the Arrival thing. Which I might add you were happy to do, as indecated in your other post. You are condeming the Batarian's as a whole. Arrival had to happen, they were dead no matter what as the reapers were coming. You revale in it.

And I admit I shouldn't have glotted about wining the moral high ground, I'm sorry, you don't deserve that. As a person you deserve respect, and I'm sorry.

Edit: And where do you get this cynacal idea that all Batarian's support slavery? You're blaming the slaves (as all Batarians are slaves to the government) for not taking out their masters, tell a black person their ancesters were slaves because they never stepped up and fought their masters, see how that goes... the Batarian people are controled in what they see and hear and never let out of their own space, they are all slaves.

Take the slaves and then double cross the slavers (kill them), then free the slaves.

And where do you get the naive idea that they don't support slavery since it is such an important part of the culture and way of life  which the game and series goes out of its way to point out and make clear.

Yes I enjoyed Arrival giving the galaxy a fighting chance makes me happy, killing a bunch of slavers was the icing on the cake. Having to cull over 205,000 slaves to prevent the reapers from invading was just the first of many innocent casulities in the war to come and was messed up but had to be done.

All you are doing is trying to transform the monsterious system of salvery they have and turn them  into victims when they are the ones responsible for it. You say they don't support slavery but give me some examples of batarians in the ME universe who do not support slavery.  Show me your evidence from the game lore that proves that the majority of batarians do not support slavery.  Show me the example of the Batarian Spartacus or the Batarian version of John Brown.

Modifié par OmegaXI, 09 octobre 2011 - 01:48 .

[TCBC_Freak]

If I remember my law class correctly the burden of proof is on the accuser, not the accused, so since you are accusing all Batarians of being slavers show me where it says all of them support it... you can't; in fact we know for a fact that their home world is fractured and ruled by which ever nation is most powerful individual nation which for the centuries has had legal slavery. Shepard, on more than one dialog option in both ME1 and ME2 says (if you select the paragon option) that not all Batarian's are slavers.

And let us not forget that most of the people they work trough are humans and Asari slavers. Humans and Asari are giving the Batarian's slaves, where is your hate for those groups?? Condemning an entire race, even for the actions of the majority is wrong. It is wrong. I'm no more naive in saying we should give the average Batarian the benefit of the doubt and not just kill them outright then any player is for waking up Legion.
Omega, if you wake up Legion and don't give him to Cerberus then you are a hypocrite, we have no in game reason to trust legion as every geth we've seen and even the codex says the geth have killed every organic they have seen. Did you wake up Legion? Then you broke your own rule and didn't judge him as you are the Batarian's based on the actions of his race, after all Legion's geth didn't kill the heretics so they must have condoned their actions right? That is your argument. I don't know if the average Batarian supports slavery, if they do then they are fools who have been raised in a backwards culture and they need to be educated, not killed.

The difference is that I'm willing to let them have a chance to be helped, you want them dead.

And the Arrival event, here's the issue with the way you handle it compared to me. I destroyed the relay to keep the reapers from gaining a powerful foothold, the Batarian's and their slaves (some of which were Batarian's themselves, others may have been human or volus or anything else) dying is a tragic event. You did it to kill Batarian's and the reapers being stopped is just a happy side effect. That's how it looks with the hate you seem to spew for their whole race.

Modifié par TCBC_Freak, 09 octobre 2011 - 01:58 .

[Kakita Tatsumaru]

IEatWhatIPoo wrote...
1 A) They don't condone slavery and yet they haven't stopped it. So then they're an apathetic race that sits back and lets their government enslave millions/billions. So **** them.
1   They do condone the enslavement of millions/billions. So **** them.

Bliss to the ignorant, as everyone use products which cause wars, slavery and famine all over the world, but no one stop using them.

Mr.Kusy wrote...

I'm going to pour some gasoline over this fireplace...

It's the same thing with Muslims, people try to defend their culture with arguments such as "you can't judge the whole nation based on few terrorists". And those arguments are absolutely correct. I'm judging them based on the fact that in Arabic countries women are nothing more than any other property, you can get stoned for changing a religion to anything different than the present one, being gay is equal to being killed... and so on.

So, with Batarians. Some of them are terrorists, but all of them accept slavery, participate in it and consider it a good thing. Take your Batarian love and come at me bro.

Condemning  a culture is not the same as condemning every single person of that culture, the first reason being they don't all agree with the stupid things inside that culture (and that's coming from someone getting bored seeing our rich culture stripped more and more by the muslim one day after the other, because having a friend which is a modern muslim helps a lot to understand that not every muslim is not clinging to concepts of another age).
And actually every culture has its flaws, and if I were living in the USA I would be more concerned with the power of the christians there than about the few muslims.

And there is no telling in the game that every batarians accept slavery, and I bet that Batarian which are slaves themselves don't consider that a good thing.

[OmegaXI]

Yes I wear my dislike of the batarians and their entire slave system out where everyone can see it, which is better than protecting them and their slave system through egalitarian delusions and naive hope, masked behind the nonsense that they are victims of their slave system when they are the ones responsible for their slave system.

[TCBC_Freak]

Edit, John Brown was a slave trader and it was almost 100 years before slavery ended after his trial and no one outside America really knew anything about it. So why would the Alliance know about it if it happened in Batarian space?

And Spartacus was *killed* and his rebellion failed. It was only the spark that about 1000 years later added to the fall of Rome, it didn't cause the fall itself. So a Batarian Spartacus would have died not ending slavery.

So to argue those two figures, even if they happened, if they have counterparts in Batarian space, it could be a few years to decades from ending slavery in the Batarian worlds; and we outside the Batarian worlds would be even longer from hearing about them.

[TCBC_Freak]

OmegaXI wrote...

Yes I wear my dislike of the batarians and their entire slave system out where everyone can see it, which is better than protecting them and their slave system through egalitarian delusions and naive hope, masked behind the nonsense that they are victims of their slave system when they are the ones responsible for their slave system.

So you wake up Legion, don't hate human's and Asari for giving the Batarian's slave, don't hate their government but hate them as a people and want them dead, and don't want to admit you are a hypocrite. I understand.

That's what I get from you not addressing a single issue I raised in my post.

Edit - You keep using this word so here you go, cause I think you don't know what it means:

Egalitarianism (from French égal, meaning "equal") is a trend of thought that favors equality of some sort among moral agents. Emphasis is placed upon the fact that equality contains the idea of equity of quality. Moral agents should get the same treatment, or be treated the same, or be regarded as possessing the same quality in some respect despite race, religion, ethnicity, sex, sexual orientation, gender expression, species, political affiliation, economic status, social status, and/or cultural heritage. Egalitarian doctrines tend to maintain that all humans are equal in fundamental worth or social status. In large part, it is a response to the abuses of statist development and has two distinct definitions in modern English. It is defined either as a political doctrine that all people should be treated as equals and have the same political, economic, social, and civil rights or as a social philosophy advocating the removal of economic inequalities among people or the decentralization of power. An egalitarian believes that equality reflects the natural state of humanity.

So Omega, why is this bad?? I think all people should be treated equal?

Modifié par TCBC_Freak, 09 octobre 2011 - 02:24 .

[OmegaXI]

TCBC_Freak wrote...

Edit, John Brown was a slave trader and it was almost 100 years before slavery ended after his trial and no one outside America really knew anything about it. So why would the Alliance know about it if it happened in Batarian space?

And Spartacus was *killed* and his rebellion failed. It was only the spark that about 1000 years later added to the fall of Rome, it didn't cause the fall itself. So a Batarian Spartacus would have died not ending slavery.

So to argue those two figures, even if they happened, if they have counterparts in Batarian space, it could be a few years to decades from ending slavery in the Batarian worlds; and we outside the Batarian worlds would be even longer from hearing about them.

John Brown was an Abolitionist who was hung in 1859 about 2 years before the American civil war broke out.

[OmegaXI]

TCBC_Freak wrote...

OmegaXI wrote...

Yes I wear my dislike of the batarians and their entire slave system out where everyone can see it, which is better than protecting them and their slave system through egalitarian delusions and naive hope, masked behind the nonsense that they are victims of their slave system when they are the ones responsible for their slave system.

So you wake up Legion, don't hate human's and Asari for giving the Batarian's slave, don't hate their government but hate them as a people and want them dead, and don't want to admit you are a hypocrite. I understand.

That's what I get from you not addressing a single issue I raised in my post.

Listen I get it you like their slave system and want slaves, but you can't come right out and say it because you don't want people to look at you funny. So instead you mask it behind defending the batarians no matter what they do.

Modifié par OmegaXI, 09 octobre 2011 - 02:25 .

[TCBC_Freak]

Then we were thinking about different John Browns. I'm sorry. And once again however it wouldn't be heard of outside Batarian space for years, few people in England would know who you were talking about at all I'd guess.

And you keep using this word so here you go, cause I think you don't know what it means:

Egalitarianism (from French égal, meaning "equal") is a trend of thought that favors equality of some sort among moral agents. Emphasis is placed upon the fact that equality contains the idea of equity of quality. Moral agents should get the same treatment, or be treated the same, or be regarded as possessing the same quality in some respect despite race, religion, ethnicity, sex, sexual orientation, gender expression, species, political affiliation, economic status, social status, and/or cultural heritage. Egalitarian doctrines tend to maintain that all humans are equal in fundamental worth or social status. In large part, it is a response to the abuses of statist development and has two distinct definitions in modern English. It is defined either as a political doctrine that all people should be treated as equals and have the same political, economic, social, and civil rights or as a social philosophy advocating the removal of economic inequalities among people or the decentralization of power. An egalitarian believes that equality reflects the natural state of humanity.

So Omega, why is this bad?? I think all people should be treated equal?

Edit - this means I think yes slavery is bad but I don't want to kill every Batarian because some of them are slavers.

Modifié par TCBC_Freak, 09 octobre 2011 - 02:31 .

[Kappa Neko]

Oh my, I've been missing out on a debate about cultural imperialism... Damn!

marshalleck wrote...

Hilarious. All these people whining about batarian slavery and the Hegemony, then in the same breath they go and espouse some cultural imperialism with talk of overthrowing the batarian government and letting their people "start over." How ****ing arrogant can you get? Who says they need your liberation, or need to 'reset' to some human standard?

Here's a thought: let the batarians worry about batarians. They can govern themselves, and their government will be one befitting their culture. Trying to force them into some other species' standard of acceptable social norms just as foul an attitude as the particularly hostile and racist tone batarians direct at humans. No wonder.

So much this!
Why is it that so many people don't realize that the "help" they force upon outrageously oppressed people of different cultures (read sarcasm), is based on ideals that aren't any more right that the "wrong" ideals of others.
How do you decide what's right and what's wrong? There's nothing to measure it with! There is no universal right or wrong. Slavery is not necessarily wrong. It serves a purpose within the society that supports it.
Personally, as a member of western society, I consider slavery wrong, yes. Oppression of women = very wrong. But I will never support military intervention in order to "free" people from a culture that is considered wrong only by us.
It's in fact very arrogant to consider your own culture as the only right one. Unfortunately it's also the only way people can relate to the world. You can't believe in your world view and at the same time negate it. If what you believe in is right, what contradicts it has to be wrong *sigh*
Only it's not that simple. Cultural imperialism is a very dangerous thing. It's as bad as actually forcing people by military power to surrender to your will for profit. Which is still happening today, too...
Things get a lot more complicated when more and more people belonging to a society rebel against it. This is currently the case in the Middle East. Some of the things going on there do not represent what the people want.
And that leads to the West getting all smug about doing everybody a favor by sending their military forces to promote democracy. Only they don't want the same thing as we want them to want! And that's fine!!
We have no right to tell other countries what to do. We have a right to defend our ideals and lives, yes. But so do they!
How would western countries feel if China sent their troops to help us embrace the only right social order that is a one party goverment? I bet there would be resistance....
If the people of Iraq want change, we should let them accomplish it themselves, just as European countries did back when the monarchy got abolished. Europe built new ideals on the ruins of the old order. Let the Middle East or Africa or Asia do the same.
It's demeaning to treat other cultures as incapable of taking care of problems themselves.
I very much dislike foreign aid for the same reason. It's yet another face of cultural imperialism. Provide the money and demand things to go the way white people want.

By the way, the Batarians can't be a mirror of human culture (singular), since there is no universal human culture. It should say a mirror of what white people don't like about themselves or other cultures.
I agree with that. Even though I would consider the reapers as the most fitting mirror of human arrogance.

I don't like Batarian society. Nor do I like the militant Turian society or the aggressive Krogan society. Don't like humans, either
But no race deserves to be eradicated. Because no judgment can be wielded without falling back on highly subjective cultural criteria. Live and let live!

[Stardusk78]

Kappa Neko wrote...

Oh my, I've been missing out on a debate about cultural imperialism... Damn!

marshalleck wrote...

Hilarious. All these people whining about batarian slavery and the Hegemony, then in the same breath they go and espouse some cultural imperialism with talk of overthrowing the batarian government and letting their people "start over." How ****ing arrogant can you get? Who says they need your liberation, or need to 'reset' to some human standard?

Here's a thought: let the batarians worry about batarians. They can govern themselves, and their government will be one befitting their culture. Trying to force them into some other species' standard of acceptable social norms just as foul an attitude as the particularly hostile and racist tone batarians direct at humans. No wonder.

So much this!
Why is it that so many people don't realize that the "help" they force upon outrageously oppressed people of different cultures (read sarcasm), is based on ideals that aren't any more right that the "wrong" ideals of others.
How do you decide what's right and what's wrong? There's nothing to measure it with! There is no universal right or wrong. Slavery is not necessarily wrong. It serves a purpose within the society that supports it.
Personally, as a member of western society, I consider slavery wrong, yes. Oppression of women = very wrong. But I will never support military intervention in order to "free" people from a culture that is considered wrong only by us.
It's in fact very arrogant to consider your own culture as the only right one. Unfortunately it's also the only way people can relate to the world. You can't believe in your world view and at the same time negate it. If what you believe in is right, what contradicts it has to be wrong *sigh*
Only it's not that simple. Cultural imperialism is a very dangerous thing. It's as bad as actually forcing people by military power to surrender to your will for profit. Which is still happening today, too...
Things get a lot more complicated when more and more people belonging to a society rebel against it. This is currently the case in the Middle East. Some of the things going on there do not represent what the people want.
And that leads to the West getting all smug about doing everybody a favor by sending their military forces to promote democracy. Only they don't want the same thing as we want them to want! And that's fine!!
We have no right to tell other countries what to do. We have a right to defend our ideals and lives, yes. But so do they!
How would western countries feel if China sent their troops to help us embrace the only right social order that is a one party goverment? I bet there would be resistance....
If the people of Iraq want change, we should let them accomplish it themselves, just as European countries did back when the monarchy got abolished. Europe built new ideals on the ruins of the old order. Let the Middle East or Africa or Asia do the same.
It's demeaning to treat other cultures as incapable of taking care of problems themselves.
I very much dislike foreign aid for the same reason. It's yet another face of cultural imperialism. Provide the money and demand things to go the way white people want.

By the way, the Batarians can't be a mirror of human culture (singular), since there is no universal human culture. It should say a mirror of what white people don't like about themselves or other cultures.
I agree with that. Even though I would consider the reapers as the most fitting mirror of human arrogance.

I don't like Batarian society. Nor do I like the militant Turian society or the aggressive Krogan society. Don't like humans, either
But no race deserves to be eradicated. Because no judgment can be wielded without falling back on highly subjective cultural criteria. Live and let live!

Fantastic post!

[TobyHasEyes]

Although live and let live is a highly subjective cultural statement

Surely the point is that those enslaved Batarians are as much a victim of the Batarian system of slavery as are those who are not Batarian

Couldn't agree more with opposing the slavery in the Batarian system, but to suggest that it damns all Batarians isn't an accurate evaluation of the situation

[Kappa Neko]

TobyHasEyes wrote...

Although live and let live is a highly subjective cultural statement

Correct!
It's based on my own morals which are in turn based on European ideals.
That's the problem. Everything I've said isn't any more right than saying everybody who's not white or christian or muslim needs to die.
Thre thing is, if a country adopts certain values such as religious and cultural freedom, it needs to stick to them. Other countries that don't proclaim such things don't have to.
Which is why the argument "Why should we grant muslims special rights if they don't do the same for white people living in muslim society?" doesn't hold. Their society doesn't support religious freedeom, so it's perfectly alright. But a society proud of their ideals of equality and freedom shouldn't rage about equal treamtment abroad. It's not about them, it's about us. Our society, our rules. If we don't want to be a democratic multicultural society anymore, fine. As long as we still operate as such, it doesn't matter what other countries do, we must stay true to our ideals.

[Kakita Tatsumaru]

Kappa Neko wrote...
Slavery is not necessarily wrong. It serves a purpose within the society that supports it.

You are mostly right, minus this part.
One's rights stop where other's begins, and disrespecting that principle always leads to revolt/war no matter the culture.

Modifié par Kakita Tatsumaru, 09 octobre 2011 - 06:29 .

[TobyHasEyes]

Kappa Neko wrote...

TobyHasEyes wrote...

Although live and let live is a highly subjective cultural statement

Correct!
It's based on my own morals which are in turn based on European ideals.
That's the problem. Everything I've said isn't any more right than saying everybody who's not white or christian or muslim needs to die.
Thre thing is, if a country adopts certain values such as religious and cultural freedom, it needs to stick to them. Other countries that don't proclaim such things don't have to.
Which is why the argument "Why should we grant muslims special rights if they don't do the same for white people living in muslim society?" doesn't hold. Their society doesn't support religious freedeom, so it's perfectly alright. But a society proud of their ideals of equality and freedom shouldn't rage about equal treamtment abroad. It's not about them, it's about us. Our society, our rules. If we don't want to be a democratic multicultural society anymore, fine. As long as we still operate as such, it doesn't matter what other countries do, we must stay true to our ideals.

 But what if our ideals are that morality should be applied universally? Then by your argument I should continue to apply them universally.. although your argument is trying to suggest the opposite is the case

 So actually, you haven't compelled us to do anything except carry on as we were

 (Don't mean that to sound rude, but I do just feel like cultural relativism is a huge farce)

[TCBC_Freak]

Kappa Neko wrote...

Oh my, I've been missing out on a debate about cultural imperialism... Damn!

marshalleck wrote...

Hilarious. All these people whining about batarian slavery and the Hegemony, then in the same breath they go and espouse some cultural imperialism with talk of overthrowing the batarian government and letting their people "start over." How ****ing arrogant can you get? Who says they need your liberation, or need to 'reset' to some human standard?

Here's a thought: let the batarians worry about batarians. They can govern themselves, and their government will be one befitting their culture. Trying to force them into some other species' standard of acceptable social norms just as foul an attitude as the particularly hostile and racist tone batarians direct at humans. No wonder.

So much this!
Why is it that so many people don't realize that the "help" they force upon outrageously oppressed people of different cultures (read sarcasm), is based on ideals that aren't any more right that the "wrong" ideals of others.
How do you decide what's right and what's wrong? There's nothing to measure it with! There is no universal right or wrong. Slavery is not necessarily wrong. It serves a purpose within the society that supports it.
Personally, as a member of western society, I consider slavery wrong, yes. Oppression of women = very wrong. But I will never support military intervention in order to "free" people from a culture that is considered wrong only by us.
It's in fact very arrogant to consider your own culture as the only right one. Unfortunately it's also the only way people can relate to the world. You can't believe in your world view and at the same time negate it. If what you believe in is right, what contradicts it has to be wrong *sigh*
Only it's not that simple. Cultural imperialism is a very dangerous thing. It's as bad as actually forcing people by military power to surrender to your will for profit. Which is still happening today, too...
Things get a lot more complicated when more and more people belonging to a society rebel against it. This is currently the case in the Middle East. Some of the things going on there do not represent what the people want.
And that leads to the West getting all smug about doing everybody a favor by sending their military forces to promote democracy. Only they don't want the same thing as we want them to want! And that's fine!!
We have no right to tell other countries what to do. We have a right to defend our ideals and lives, yes. But so do they!
How would western countries feel if China sent their troops to help us embrace the only right social order that is a one party goverment? I bet there would be resistance....
If the people of Iraq want change, we should let them accomplish it themselves, just as European countries did back when the monarchy got abolished. Europe built new ideals on the ruins of the old order. Let the Middle East or Africa or Asia do the same.
It's demeaning to treat other cultures as incapable of taking care of problems themselves.
I very much dislike foreign aid for the same reason. It's yet another face of cultural imperialism. Provide the money and demand things to go the way white people want.

By the way, the Batarians can't be a mirror of human culture (singular), since there is no universal human culture. It should say a mirror of what white people don't like about themselves or other cultures.
I agree with that. Even though I would consider the reapers as the most fitting mirror of human arrogance.

I don't like Batarian society. Nor do I like the militant Turian society or the aggressive Krogan society. Don't like humans, either
But no race deserves to be eradicated. Because no judgment can be wielded without falling back on highly subjective cultural criteria. Live and let live!

I agree fully. Except for one point. If a nation asks for aid another powers should be willing to help if it is in their nature (as with America and most of Europe). For example, America asked France for aid and they then gave it; we were then able to gain freedom from England. By the same token, France then asked for aid against England and we American's did not help them, this eventually gave rise to Napoleon and an empire that threatened the whole world, lol. So I fully believe no one should interfere unless asked to, and then only if it is their nature to do so. A lot of those nations in Europe nations who overthrew the kings and queens and such did so with aid, but it was requested aid. And most of the time people (like America, and China, and Russia) had not put those kings in power like we did with the dictators in the middle-east, lol.

I do agree with you, but just wanted to add something I thought about, what do you think, agree?

Edit - Also, i feel that one person's rights should never be gained by taking someone elses. Everyone has the right to choose (for good or ill and live with their choice), and salvery removes that. But that's me personally. I think I, as an idividual have a right and a responsibility to stand for those oppressed, but not the government. If the government decides right and wrong without the input of the people it becomes a tyrant state. But people must be willing to stand for what they believe is right, and they are hypocrites if they don't.

Modifié par TCBC_Freak, 09 octobre 2011 - 07:17 .

[Kappa Neko]

TobyHasEyes wrote...

 But what if our ideals are that morality should be applied universally? Then by your argument I should continue to apply them universally.. although your argument is trying to suggest the opposite is the case

 So actually, you haven't compelled us to do anything except carry on as we were

 (Don't mean that to sound rude, but I do just feel like cultural relativism is a huge farce)

Yes, that's why cultural relativism  is only an intellectual construct. It doesn't work when dealing with real problems.
But being stuck in your own world view is a fact. Being made aware of how much of what we consider normal and right is not universal is very important. Only by realizing just how much our culture influences our thinking can we learn to accept morals that are different to our own. Which to me is a vital step to making this world more peaceful.
Of course, accepting other ideals as equally valid is a western idea (just like human rights).
All I can do is state what I consider the right approach. You *need* to relate to the world in some way!
When it comes to dealing with a military threat, it boils down to defending your society all the same.
No nation would accept an invasion, thinking it's wrong to accuse the aggressor of wrongdoing based on cultural relativism.
Being tolerant only works as long as everybody plays along and nobody gets hurt. (Which is seldom the case)
It's difficult to determine when a country or culture turns into a threat to other societies. In my opinion the western world has been an aggressor far longer than the Middle East.
All I'm stating is what I, as an individual from  Europe think about the issue of judging other cultures/races by our morals. Nothing more, nothing less.

Now I'm going to bed

[General User]

SandTrout wrote...

Batarians = Threat.

It really doesn't need to be more complicated than mutually exclusive interests.