157 réponses à ce sujet

[Pygmali0n]

Just the facts ma'am. No exclamations and no name calling went on this side.

[ScotGaymer]

Yeh you did you got rude and insulting because I said something that YOU took as offensive, something that YOU didnt like. Something that was mostly frustration, and partly kidding on. Ie joking banter.

No need for it. No need for personal attacks either.

And Im a guy.

[esper]

tmp7704 wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

I don't think the art style is particularly simplified, on the whole.

The devs themselves said they've simplified on purpose the backgrounds on the whole, and that's one of key points of the 'new' art style. This sort of selective focus on characters, with backgrounds being secondary if present at all, is pretty common element in the cartoons.

DA2 doesn't look anything like any cartoon I've seen, so I really don't see it.

I think it's more, it feels like one. The "iconic appearances", shallow storylines, flat characters, puerile obsession with "awesome" etc. Combine that all with the new art style and the overall impression comes very close to...



just take away cell-shading and add ridiculous blood splatters.

And it still looks nothing like dragon age 2.
Honestly cartoon graphic is evolving as well. I don't when or what that is from by it looks like and old style cartoon.

[Pygmali0n]

esper wrote...

tmp7704 wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

I don't think the art style is particularly simplified, on the whole.

The devs themselves said they've simplified on purpose the backgrounds on the whole, and that's one of key points of the 'new' art style. This sort of selective focus on characters, with backgrounds being secondary if present at all, is pretty common element in the cartoons.

DA2 doesn't look anything like any cartoon I've seen, so I really don't see it.

I think it's more, it feels like one. The "iconic appearances", shallow storylines, flat characters, puerile obsession with "awesome" etc. Combine that all with the new art style and the overall impression comes very close to...



just take away cell-shading and add ridiculous blood splatters.

And it still looks nothing like dragon age 2.
Honestly cartoon graphic is evolving as well. I don't when or what that is from by it looks like and old style cartoon.

I'd say that edition of He-Man looks very DA2-style. Not identical and the individual characters look very different of course.

Modifié par Pygmali0n, 07 octobre 2011 - 04:04 .

[Ariella]

Pygmali0n wrote...

esper wrote...

tmp7704 wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

I don't think the art style is particularly simplified, on the whole.

The devs themselves said they've simplified on purpose the backgrounds on the whole, and that's one of key points of the 'new' art style. This sort of selective focus on characters, with backgrounds being secondary if present at all, is pretty common element in the cartoons.

DA2 doesn't look anything like any cartoon I've seen, so I really don't see it.

I think it's more, it feels like one. The "iconic appearances", shallow storylines, flat characters, puerile obsession with "awesome" etc. Combine that all with the new art style and the overall impression comes very close to...



just take away cell-shading and add ridiculous blood splatters.

And it still looks nothing like dragon age 2.
Honestly cartoon graphic is evolving as well. I don't when or what that is from by it looks like and old style cartoon.

I'd say that edition of He-Man looks very DA2-style. Not identical and the individual characters look very different of course.

Maybe in a vague way that boarders on meaningless... All Fantasy Art is going to have a smililar look, and in fact I'd say this picture looks more like the art style ow WoW than DA2.

[ScotGaymer]

There is a perception in the west, and more specifically in the United States (apparently, but being British I am not entirely sure if its an accurate assertion) that animation equals cartoon and cartoon equals unrealistic and for kids.

This is not remotely true. Most animation in actual fact has highly adult themes and is not at all suitable for children. I've also seen cartoons that are more "realistic" (depends on your definition this word) than some live action programs.

It is what gives rise to this erroneous perception that anything animated must be unrealistic. And thats why it gets applied for any animation that people don't like; which was kind of my original point. That it just isnt the word to describe whats wrong with DA2.

Modifié par FitScotGaymer, 07 octobre 2011 - 04:10 .

[tmp7704]

FitScotGaymer wrote...

There is a perception in the west, and more specifically in the United States (apparently, but being British I am not entirely sure if its an accurate assertion) that animation equals cartoon and cartoon equals unrealistic and for kids.

This is not remotely true. Most animation in actual fact has highly adult themes and is not at all suitable for children.

Explain how such perception came to be then, if what you claim is even remotely true.

(small percentage of animation, granted. More so in Japan but that's entirely different culture with much stronger focus on drawn media to begin with. When it comes to the West though, the majority of cartoons is "unrealistic and for kids")

[Pygmali0n]

Da Vinci drew cartoons. There is a modern definition, however, that encapsulates the made-for-children, Saturday morning cartoons and is well-understood and can be used as an insult.

That's not to say that there aren't animations which use cartoon techniques which aren't intelligent and mature.

Unfortunately sometimes words change beyond our control - and although I'm all for institutions like the Acadamie Francaise, occasionally you just have to accept a change (it doesn't mean that you have to use that changed expression yourself). For example, some old people don't like the way the word gay has had its meaning changed, but I wouldn't recommend substituting it for 'happy' in general use.

Modifié par Pygmali0n, 07 octobre 2011 - 04:21 .

[ScotGaymer]

Lol.

No idea.

I did say "apparently". It says so on TV Tropes. lol.

I know that in Britain there is a degree of that perception (and the perception that gaming was for kids or nerdy anti social people) but that its not as prevalent now as it was in years past.

EDIT:
Here it was on this page that I read it on TV Tropes.

tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ptitlerax1116nu5ji

Run to the bottom to see a list of examples of things that are generrally percieved to be for kids and whatnot, and in actual fact really arent and have strong adult themes in them.

Modifié par FitScotGaymer, 07 octobre 2011 - 04:32 .

[tmp7704]

Ariella wrote...

Maybe in a vague way that boarders on meaningless... All Fantasy Art is going to have a smililar look

If that was really the case, shouldn't DAO invoke identical comments about being "cartoony" when it first shipped?

I think the "all fantasy art is going to look similar" is false in this context -- there can be enough differences also in approach to the fantasy art, to set things apart. Isn't it after all, the very reason why BioWare tried to give DA2 new art style to begin with?

[Pygmali0n]

Hm, but you do have the added problem of programs like South Park, which aren't for children, are intelligent, but definitely are also immature (and even more confusedly can contain mature insights).

There are different ages of man and the child and teenage ages are separate and different. Don't mistake teenage immaturity for adult maturity just because the subject matter is a level above child.

[Pygmali0n]

tmp7704 wrote...

Ariella wrote...

Maybe in a vague way that boarders on meaningless... All Fantasy Art is going to have a smililar look

If that was really the case, shouldn't DAO invoke identical comments about being "cartoony" when it first shipped?

I think the "all fantasy art is going to look similar" is false in this context -- there can be enough differences also in approach to the fantasy art, to set things apart. Isn't it after all, the very reason why BioWare tried to give DA2 new art style to begin with?

Exactly - He-Man may be semi-naked, but Conan he is not.

[tmp7704]

FitScotGaymer wrote...

Here it was on this page that I read it on TV Tropes.

tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ptitlerax1116nu5ji

Run to the bottom to see a list of examples of things that are generrally percieved to be for kids and whatnot, and in actual fact really arent and have strong adult themes in them.

Note how few examples there is under "western animation" compared to number of cartoons out there.

[ScotGaymer]

Video Games and Films also have "western" animation examples tmp.

[tmp7704]

FitScotGaymer wrote...

Video Games and Films also have "western" animation examples tmp.

Hmm okay you made me look but at a glance i don't really see any cartoons included in either "video games" or the "films" categories (and unsurprisingly so)  I thought we're discussing whether it's really "most cartoons" that's aimed at adults etc.?

[ScotGaymer]

Okay.

Could you please actually read what I type? Cos I am actually getting really frustrated with trying to communicate with you.

I said basically "there is a perception in the west that animation = cartoon = unrealistic = for kids".

All three of the categories I pointed you to on that Not For Kids article on TV Tropes have "animation" examples.
And it was this perception that animation = cartoon = childish = unrealistic that gives rise to the whole reflex that some people seem to have about denouncing anything animated that they dont like as "cartoony/cartoon like".

And having looked back at what I typed earlier - it is precisely what I type. I really dont see how you missed it, or how you are confused.
I dont know how to explain myself any clearer on this particular issue.

EDIT:
I really feel like your skimming my posts, picking out key words, and making up what I am meaning in your head. And not actually reading what i am saying.

Maybe the article will explain what I meant better...

Modifié par FitScotGaymer, 07 octobre 2011 - 05:03 .

[Ariella]

tmp7704 wrote...

Ariella wrote...

Maybe in a vague way that boarders on meaningless... All Fantasy Art is going to have a smililar look

If that was really the case, shouldn't DAO invoke identical comments about being "cartoony" when it first shipped?

I think the "all fantasy art is going to look similar" is false in this context -- there can be enough differences also in approach to the fantasy art, to set things apart. Isn't it after all, the very reason why BioWare tried to give DA2 new art style to begin with?

Actually it got the word: GENERIC. And maybe I should be clearer: all fantasy art is going start from the same basis, being that ALL said art is drawn, and all computer games depend on animation these days. So yes, there are going to be similar looks and reference points, but DA2 looks very little like either version of He Man, especially considering DA2 tends to show less skin (except for Isabela of course)

[ScotGaymer]

Ariella wrote...


Actually it got the word: GENERIC. And maybe I should be clearer: all fantasy art is going start from the same basis, being that ALL said art is drawn, and all computer games depend on animation these days. So yes, there are going to be similar looks and reference points, but DA2 looks very little like either version of He Man, especially considering DA2 tends to show less skin (except for Isabela of course)

I got what you meant.

If you are going to say DA2 looks like He-Man and thus must look "cartoony" then you might as well draw the logic that all fantasy art is cartoony, samey, and unrealistic. Because they have the same basis.

lol.

And yeh I agree. Generic is probably the best word to describe DA2's art style IMO.

Modifié par FitScotGaymer, 07 octobre 2011 - 05:18 .

[Ariella]

FitScotGaymer wrote...

Ariella wrote...


Actually it got the word: GENERIC. And maybe I should be clearer: all fantasy art is going start from the same basis, being that ALL said art is drawn, and all computer games depend on animation these days. So yes, there are going to be similar looks and reference points, but DA2 looks very little like either version of He Man, especially considering DA2 tends to show less skin (except for Isabela of course)

I got what you meant.

If you are going to say DA2 looks like He-Man and thus must look "cartoony" then you might as well draw the logic that all fantasy art is cartoony, samey, and unrealistic. Because they have the same basis.

lol.

And yeh I agree. Generic is probably the best word to describe DA2's art style IMO.

Which is funny considering that was the complaint most heard about DAO in general, including the art.

[ScotGaymer]

I didnt think that DAO was all that generic actually.

I mean yeh it did have generic fantasy elements in it but often these elements were lampshaded; like the Elves being a poor underclass or race of itinerants instead of being ethereal, otherworldly, and hugely powerful. And the Dwarves being obsessed with politics and money instead of war and honour.

Everyone has different opinions tho.

Modifié par FitScotGaymer, 07 octobre 2011 - 05:29 .

[Pygmali0n]

We must remind ourselves that if people don't know, you often can't tell them, you have to show:


Now DA:O wasn't perfect, it was watered-down, but this could say to typify the mindset:




Whereas the following typifies the DA2 mindset (except cleaned-up a little, a little more simplified still, and still not as hard-ass as Conan in general, actually the He-man pic is closer):

Modifié par Pygmali0n, 07 octobre 2011 - 05:41 .

[Wulfram]

When talking about the look, I don't think the storyline and characterisation are really relevant.

I don't think the He-man picture looks like DA2 apart from the obvious things like having swords. The exception which proves the rule is the ridiculous "He-man" arm on the Mage champion armour, which looks totally out of place in DA2.

[PinkShoes]

FitScotGaymer wrote...

My point is that you guys who accusing the game of being cartoony, being like a cartoon in its art style, are using the word wrongly.

Very wrongly.

dictionary.reference.com/browse/cartoon

Cartoon means this "a sketch or drawing, usually humorous, as in a newspaper or periodical, symbolizing, satirizing, or caricaturing some action, subject, or person of popular interest."
Thus DA2 does not fit the definition as its art style does not satarize, symbolize, or caricature anything.

You guys are using it to mean anything that is unrealistic and that you dont like.

Wrong!

EDIT:
Sorry guys, dont mean to be rude but you guys are just factually wrong.

No one called it a cartoon.

They are syaing it looks a bit in the style bit not the actual style. Cartoon like, thats not someone saying it is a cartoon.

and tbh i think you are being a little rude. People here are trying to express their opinion and you are saying "NO! WRONG!" i feel like the graphics are cartoony, you dont. Different opinions and thats okay.

[PinkShoes]

Pygmali0n wrote...

We must remind ourselves that if people don't know, you often can't tell them, you have to show:


Now DA:O wasn't perfect, it was watered-down, but this could say to typify the mindset:




Whereas the following typifies the DA2 mindset (except cleaned-up a little, a little more simplified still, and still not as hard-ass as Conan in general, actually the He-man pic is closer):

ahaha yeah thats what its like

[Alyka]

Pygmali0n wrote...

We must remind ourselves that if people don't know, you often can't tell them, you have to show:


Now DA:O wasn't perfect, it was watered-down, but this could say to typify the mindset:




Whereas the following typifies the DA2 mindset (except cleaned-up a little, a little more simplified still, and still not as hard-ass as Conan in general, actually the He-man pic is closer):

How I would describe them:
The first one is a detailed depiction.
The second one reminds me of the art style from comic books and probably is from the Conan comic book series.

EDIT: Also, I agree with your examples of how people may percieve DA:O and DA2's art styles.

Modifié par Alyka, 07 octobre 2011 - 07:20 .