293 réponses à ce sujet

[CroGamer002]

I just find it funny that we know less about the Quarian side of the story of that war, then the Geth's!

I mean, think about it.

We only know Quarians attacked first and that's because Geth started to become sentient and fear from possible rebellion do to slavery.

And that's it.
We know nothing else but the aftermath I don't need to mentioned since it's irrelevant for the topic and I'm sure everyone knows it.


From Legion we find out that reason why Geth slaughter billions of Quarians( non-combatants mostly ofcourse) is because they though if they kill them all, they'll survive.
Though later on in war they find out that's not needed and let remaining Quarians go.
And they don't deny they made a horrible mistake there.

So that's already more we know about that war from Geth side of the story, then from Quarian.




Now, let's talk about Quairan attacking first.
Who exactly attacked first?

I mean, in Mass Effect universe aliens have, obviously, governments.
Yet, we have no idea what government Quarians had before that war.

Also we seen many powerful corporations and organizations independent from governments and some of them doing un-ethical things.

And were Quarians nation states divided? Humans and Batarians are.


So my question is, who greenlight attack on the Geth?

Did one of Quarian corporation convinced government that Geth had to be dealt with before they become danger?
Or did some corporation alone did that without telling that to their government?
Or some other nation on Rannoch screwed that up?

Also was this also made in public?
If it was, then what was the public opinion?

I mean, from Admiral Qwib Qwib, we seen there are Geth sympathizers.
Wouldn't Geth sympathizers be then as well?


Also, what is the REAL reason for attacking first?
Was it just fear of the Geh rebellion or that some corporations and/or government just wanted to keep profit with cheap labor?




This are my questions that I hope Bioware will answer.
And another reason for creating this topic is do to many people on BSN hating Quarians for what they do to the Geth, even though it is irrational to blame those crimes on Quarians as a whole. I mean, it would like hating Germans do to World War 2.


Also this is topic about Quarian side of the story of that war, not should and how Quariand and Geth make peace. There's a appropriate thread for that.

[SnowHeart1]

Your answer from Bioware is in the games. I doubt you'll get much more than that.

That said... it's an interesting point and, my opinion, is that the Quarians don't really know. At least judging by conversations with Tali, she has a narrative in her head and there's major cognitive dissonance when you suggest anything to the contrary. It just doesn't compute. And she doesn't have specifics, just these vague parts of a story that has been handed down over the generations. So, I don't think the quarians really know except for what they've had to tell themselves to justify what they did and to put them in the position of victims rather than a justly vanquishes oppressor.

It's possible they are victims... but I don't think they have the hard evidence to support that anymore. (As they say, he who wins writes the history.)

[CroGamer002]

SnowHeart1 wrote...

Your answer from Bioware is in the games. I doubt you'll get much more than that.

That said... it's an interesting point and, my opinion, is that the Quarians don't really know. At least judging by conversations with Tali, she has a narrative in her head and there's major cognitive dissonance when you suggest anything to the contrary. It just doesn't compute. And she doesn't have specifics, just these vague parts of a story that has been handed down over the generations. So, I don't think the quarians really know except for what they've had to tell themselves to justify what they did and to put them in the position of victims rather than a justly vanquishes oppressor.

It's possible they are victims... but I don't think they have the hard evidence to support that anymore. (As they say, he who wins writes the history.)

And Geth pretty much won that war.
And they don't look like to hide their mistakes in war.

There are probably some datas on Rannoch that Geth secured or was left untouched that can be find later on.
I mean, we will visit Ranoch in ME3.

[Fifth Fleet Out]

If our refridgerators became sentient, we would do the same thing.Turn them off. Sentience also means they have an instinct to survive, and they have. There is not much story because their civilzation is dead and no one cared what their life was like 300 years ago. How many people today know what type of life the ancient myans had for example? In a galaxy that big they have become irrelevant.
who greenlight attack on the Geth? Most likely their government.

Who exactly attacked first?

The qurians but they did not see it as an attack but turning off their machines imo

I do not think the corporations had a say and if they did, they would want the robots to not be sentient...

And made public? The government does not make a lot of things public

Yes greed and cheap labour and war machines are enough of a reason, the Quraians were a superpower and very tech forward

Modifié par Fifth Fleet Out, 03 octobre 2011 - 03:00 .

[CroGamer002]

^That's an interesting scenario.

Quarian government becoming galaxy superpower without Council.

[SpiffySquee]

You make a very good point... we know next to nothing about the war as a whole much less their side of it. My guess would be that a small group of the Quarian government made the decision to attack first without getting the ok with the majority. After all, they had to act fast, and I think it would have been a, "Do now and ask permission alter" kind of thing.

[eternalnightmare13]

I've always had the feeling that I know more about the quarians side of the war then the geth. Even after Legion.

[Tonymac]

Tali explained the quarian side in ME1.
Legion explained the geth side in ME2.

ME3 may see them joining forces again. It would be interesting knowing that the paragon/renegade paths may have divergent answers to our previous decisions.

[_purifico_]

We know almost next to nothing of the quarian side o the story because they tell nothing about it - one of the better ways to hide the truth is tell as little as possible. hence - they did attack first.
If it comes to this quarians are going down in my game (with the exception of Kal'Reagar if i can help it)

[CroGamer002]

^Eh?

Quarians said it themselves they attacked first.
Why would they hide the details since that fact pretty much makes them guilty for war?

Modifié par Mesina2, 03 octobre 2011 - 04:03 .

[aiDvEoN]

One thing that's always bugged me when people argue that the quarians deserved to be slaughtered for attempting to pull the plug: assuming that they didn't, nd the council found out about the geth awakening, do people seriously think that the citadel wouldn't have ordered a shutdown of the neural network as an illegal AI?

Once the geth were sentient, it was a lose/lose scenario for the quarians.

[CroGamer002]

^True.

[HellBovine]

_purifico_ wrote...

We know almost next to nothing of the quarian side o the story because they tell nothing about it - one of the better ways to hide the truth is tell as little as possible. hence - they did attack first.
If it comes to this quarians are going down in my game (with the exception of Kal'Reagar if i can help it)

Yea, cause a bunch of civilians whose government made a bad decision 300 years ago and have been handed a raw deal for the entire time followin that bad decision totally deserve to be driven extinct.  -sarcasm off

Modifié par HellBovine, 03 octobre 2011 - 09:10 .

[CroGamer002]

^Yeah, that attitude annoys me.

[Landline]

Tali herself said that they were hoping that the Geth hadn't achieved sentience yet and pulled the plug.

What the quarians did can't be considered an attack, it was more of a mass recall of a defective product. That's probably exactly what happened too.

Hell, an individual geth is just an VI. Your typical platform has the intelligence of an animal. Is destroying an individual geth on its own considered any different then turning off a mech? Geth simply can't be treated like a normal organic or AI. Their minds are simply too alien.

[Kasai666]

aiDvEoN wrote...

One thing that's always bugged me when people argue that the quarians deserved to be slaughtered for attempting to pull the plug: assuming that they didn't, nd the council found out about the geth awakening, do people seriously think that the citadel wouldn't have ordered a shutdown of the neural network as an illegal AI?

Once the geth were sentient, it was a lose/lose scenario for the quarians.

The Quarians mope around and always whine about how the Geth slaughted them and how their homeworld is gone thanks to them. However, only a select few want actual peace. The Quarians played god and lost, and they expect pity. I don't plan on giving them an ounce. 

[Raygereio]

There are several unanwered questions that bothered me about this. Mailny because it smells like plot contrivance.

Why the Geth were created in the first place? They're essentially began as a series of generic software platforms that can be plugged into any robotic form to do a job. Why not just simply program those robots to preform their task, instead of doing something so absurdly complicated?
The only thing that makes sense to me is that the Quarians were seeing how far they could bend the law with trying to make an AI, without actually making an AI.

Also how the hell did the whole "let's attempt to deactivate the Geth before anyone finds out how badly we messed up" devolve into a war that the Quarians lost?
I get that the Quarians would go with the military option once they found out that the Geth wouldn't listen and that the Geth would respond in kind. But did noone build hardcoded fail-safes into the Geth platofrms themselves and their robotic forms? I mean I were to build a robot with weaponry, I'd make damned sure I can deactivate the thing under any and all circumstance. Which should include it's software not working as intended.

Modifié par Raygereio, 04 octobre 2011 - 08:38 .

[CroGamer002]

^Quarians underestimated on how many Geth become sentient. That's why they fail to deactivate them before becoming a threat and ironically that move doomed Quarians.

[SandTrout]

Just to make a side point about an argument that gets brought up often regarding AI, self-preservation is not inherently included in sentience. Survival instinct exists in humans because of how our sentience came into being (natural selection). The Geth, however, were manufactured and programmed, meaning that they came into being as design, with their sentience not being achieved via a harsh survival test. It is possible to be aware without placing any value on ones own existence.

Of course, this could be a moot point because apparently the Quarians did include a self-preservation algorithm in Geth programming. Huge mistake, but understandable for tools that don't have constant oversight to prevent them from destroying themselves.

I get that the Quarians would go with the military option once they found out that the Geth wouldn't listen and that the Geth would respond in kind. But did noone build hardcoded fail-safes into the Geth platofrms and their robotic forms? I mean I were to build a robot with weaponry, I'd make damned sure I can deactivate the thing under any and all circumstance. Which should include it's software not working as intended.

While an apparently sound theory, this doesn't actually work for military hardware, because if such a 'kill' signal existed, your enemies would work extensively to find out what it is, and then use it at the most opportune (inopportune, for you) moment.

A better design for a fail safe there would be to have some sort of internal hardware limiter that would reduce the hardware to non-functional after a fixed period. Non-rechargeable batteries seem like the most obvious solution here.

[Raygereio]

Mesina2 wrote...
^Quarians underestimated on how many Geth become sentient. That's why they fail to deactivate them before becoming a threat and ironically that move doomed Quarians.

Numbers shouldn't have mattered if they had any sort of failsafe.

SandTrout wrote...
While an apparently sound theory, this doesn't actually work for military hardware, because if such a 'kill' signal existed, your enemies would work extensively to find out what it is, and then use it at the most opportune (inopportune, for you) moment.

It doesn't even have to be a off-button-signal. It could just be something as simple as hardcoded directive to always follow the commands of Quarian command. If the Geth could override things like that, then someone messed up anyway as that would also mean an enemy who captured a Geth soldier could override it.

[TobyHasEyes]

That and we don't know if the Geth were designed with weapons

[Raygereio]

TobyHasEyes wrote...
That and we don't know if the Geth were designed with weapons

They were created as tools of labor and war. So it makes sense that at least some robot bodies designed for use by the Geth had weaponry.

[GodWood]

Well atm the current fan concensus is "hurp derr dem evul quarians attakted the sweet inocent geth, dey deserved what tjhey got"

So since the average fan requires Bioware to spell everything out for them I fully support Bioware giving more to the quarian POV just so I can see less "the quarians got what they deserved" comments.

[Swimming Ferret]

Meh, main vibe I get from Quarians is "We tried to kill them all and they kick us off our homeplanet. Now we've gone a few centuries without being smart enough to colonize another f*cking planet and just b*tch about it to everyone."

Geth pretty much say GTFO to anyone who tries to swing by XD

[TobyHasEyes]

Raygereio wrote...

TobyHasEyes wrote...
That and we don't know if the Geth were designed with weapons

They were created as tools of labor and war. So it makes sense that at least some robot bodies designed for use by the Geth had weaponry.

 True, I hadn't the 'tools of war' bit before

 Kudos