293 réponses à ce sujet

[TobyHasEyes]

Someone With Mass wrote...

If the quarians hadn't tried to shut down the geth, the Council certainly would have made the quarians do it.

Those laws about extermination of AIs on sight are there for a reason, you know.

 And what laws about extermination of AIs on sight are those? I have heard that A.I's are illegal, but that doesn't mean that is how they are handled. That they are illegal doesn't mean you are legally required to exterminate any you find as soon as you find them

[Someone With Mass]

TobyHasEyes wrote...

 And what laws about extermination of AIs on sight are those? I have heard that A.I's are illegal, but that doesn't mean that is how they are handled. That they are illegal doesn't mean you are legally required to exterminate any you find as soon as you find them

I think it was mentioned in ME1 while you're tracking the signal on the Citadel that the there's a law about deactivation of illegal AIs on sight.

I could be wrong, though.

[TobyHasEyes]

111987 wrote...

AI's are very different from organics. Since AI are so uncommon, predicting their behavior would have been almost impossible for the Quarians to do. Only in hindsight do we know that they made the wrong decision. At the time though, they would have been risking the security of everyone in the galaxy by allowing the Geth time to become smarter and and more powerful and potentially reach conclusions that bode ill for organic species.

 Essentially it is true that the Quarians could not have known what the Geth would do, however when something reasonable unpredictable has only acted peacefully, responding with violence seems far more guaranteed to provoke a negative response

 Essentially if an alien species landed on Earth, suddenly was within most populations and had a large presence.. though I could not be sure of their intentions had they acted peacefully I would suggest negotiating and talking before turning to extermination as the first response

[TobyHasEyes]

Someone With Mass wrote...

TobyHasEyes wrote...

 And what laws about extermination of AIs on sight are those? I have heard that A.I's are illegal, but that doesn't mean that is how they are handled. That they are illegal doesn't mean you are legally required to exterminate any you find as soon as you find them

I think it was mentioned in ME1 while you're tracking the signal on the Citadel that the there's a law about deactivation of illegal AIs on sight.

I could be wrong, though.

 Yeh when you posted before it made me think of that case, I can't remember hearing anything definitive

 There is also suggestions in the lore that the laws on A.I research were largely formed due to the Geth situation. While it is likely that it is an error on the part of those writing the lore (as AI research was said to be illegal at the time of the Morning War) if we do wish to have consistency that the idea that those regulations have changed substantially since the Morning War seems reasonable

 So in short, I can't remember either, but even if that is the case it isn't a stipulation on the laws at the time

 As ever in these discussions, the lack of thorough evidence means a thorough evaluation is always going to be lacking (hence I also urge people not to talk in absolutes with these matters)

[SnowHeart1]

I keep thinking of the ST:TNG episode, The Measure of a Man, which was about whether Data was property or had a right of self-determination. You can argue about whether the Quarians felt the law would compel them to try to shut down the Geth (although they were already operating outside of Citadel space, so I don't quite see how Citadel law would apply to them), or about whether they actually were (knew or should have known they were) in danger, but a more fundamental question is (IMO) whether you believe, in its infancy, that a true AI, one capable of self-awareness and philosophy, has a right to self-determination or it should be shut down at the whim of its creator.

In a way, I think that's a more fundamental question that whether the decision was wise or unwise. I'm not sure I know the answer to that. Just thinking out loud, so to speak.

Edit: Struck part where I'm getting my timeline all jumbled. Apologies.

Modifié par SnowHeart1, 06 octobre 2011 - 10:38 .

[111987]

TobyHasEyes wrote...

111987 wrote...

AI's are very different from organics. Since AI are so uncommon, predicting their behavior would have been almost impossible for the Quarians to do. Only in hindsight do we know that they made the wrong decision. At the time though, they would have been risking the security of everyone in the galaxy by allowing the Geth time to become smarter and and more powerful and potentially reach conclusions that bode ill for organic species.

 Essentially it is true that the Quarians could not have known what the Geth would do, however when something reasonable unpredictable has only acted peacefully, responding with violence seems far more guaranteed to provoke a negative response

 Essentially if an alien species landed on Earth, suddenly was within most populations and had a large presence.. though I could not be sure of their intentions had they acted peacefully I would suggest negotiating and talking before turning to extermination as the first response

But you see, the Geth were still relatively unintelligent at the time. Only when they began linking together en masse did they become the sophisicated AI they are today. Knowing that the Geth would only get stronger with time, the logical step is to take them out before they become even more powerful and intelligent than they already are. By negotiating with them, it gives them time to grow stronger.

[General User]

Xilizhra wrote...

Hm. The quarians were the aggressors, the geth took their response too far. At the moment, I'm neutral, and hope to broker peace; if it can't hold, I'll defend whomever gets attacked first.

I more or less agree, with the stipulation that I feel no need to support a bad peace deal.

[1136342t54_]

Phaedon wrote...

It may be self-defence,technically, but it's not the kind of self-defence that would get you a "Get Out of Jail" card. 

Never said that I've repeatedly said it wasn't right. No offense but it seems that everyone I argue with seems to think I am justifying this.

Forget escaping. Or threatening. Or using less than lethal force. 

Just imagine the geth only killing those who tried deactivating them. Do you really think that the Quarians would, one by one, keep deactivating them and get slaughtered in the process? Or that multiple billions deactivated them at once, not realizing the danger, and chickening out of the deal?

That is why I said FIRST battle would have been mostly civillian casualties. Possibly thousands or millions dead or heavily injured in the first day before the Geth got more organized and regrouped since the military would be sent in at that time. 

What is? Waiting to commit genocide when whether that civillian lives or dies doesn't affect your odds of survival at all? Or are all quarians trained soldiers that could make a great resistance group, a la the turians?

What? How do you assume I'm even insinuating all Quarians are basically soldiers? 

I don't care if the Quarians used WMDs, because if they were the good guys or if they were the bad ones is not what are talking about.

95% of the planet's population dead is NOT collateral damage. It is fully intended. You don't just aim at combat-worthy targets and end up killing some millions per strike too.

You do know that full on Nuclear war would devastate Earth to the point humans would be extinct right? Its quite possible Quarians and Geth began going for MAD solutions on there planets to slow the Geth down. The downside is that Geth are machines and they can survive the radiation and live on planets that is enviromentally destroyed Quarians can't.  That was the whole reason why no one wanted a WWIII on Earth.

I'll need to go too after this post, you don't have to reply to me right now. You can do that tomorrow or the day after that, etc.

The civvies were sent to kill the geth? Even if so initially, they would have stopped the orders once the geth started killing civvies. Also, there is no way that billions of civvies died trying to deactive geth. Let's face it, by the first thousand casualties, they would be retreating and waiting for their military to act.

Like I said before the Civillians were likely told to shut off the Geth due to malfunctions when in fact the Government wanted them shut down due to them being AI.

We all know the reasons why the Quarian Government wanted to keep it a secret even Tali mentioned i.

1. Geth were essentially slaves

The Council didn't have much against slavery (Batarians) but if it got out that Quarians essentially created a race of slaves well that wouldn't be good.

2. AI are against the law.

That alone could get them kicked off the Citadel.

3. AI are possibly dangerous

They did have to think about the safety of there people but they panicked and attempted genocide.

[GodWood]

Biotic Sage wrote...
It's actually one of the simpler moral judgments in the game.

Indeed.
The geth (that are still floating around today) slaughtered billions of innocent men, women and children and commit wide-scale genocide.
For these atrocities they must be exterminated.

[1136342t54_]

Someone With Mass wrote...

TobyHasEyes wrote...

 And what laws about extermination of AIs on sight are those? I have heard that A.I's are illegal, but that doesn't mean that is how they are handled. That they are illegal doesn't mean you are legally required to exterminate any you find as soon as you find them

I think it was mentioned in ME1 while you're tracking the signal on the Citadel that the there's a law about deactivation of illegal AIs on sight.

I could be wrong, though.

To be more accurate before the Geth AI were illegal to make but it was never explicitly said they had to exterminate AI on sight.

[1136342t54_]

Xilizhra wrote...

Hm. The quarians were the aggressors, the geth took their response too far. At the moment, I'm neutral, and hope to broker peace; if it can't hold, I'll defend whomever gets attacked first.

This. The Quarians attempted to exterminate the Geth. Since the amount of Geth at that time could technically be counted in the millions or more (due to the Neural network) I'd say that counts as genocide (even though the Quarians thought it was a small amount of sapient Geth). The Geth of course attempted to respond in kind. While they did take it to far or what Legion said was totally in that Quarians attack Geth every chance they got it didn't matter. Killing that many people were wrong (even though we have no idea on what weapons were used and how it went so far)

Both sides took things to far and attempted to kill each other off on the possibility that the other will destroy them first.

[Kaiser Shepard]

GodWood wrote...

Biotic Sage wrote...
It's actually one of the simpler moral judgments in the game.

Indeed.
The geth (that are still floating around today) slaughtered billions of innocent men, women and children and commit wide-scale genocide.
For these atrocities they must be exterminated.

Erhm, you're not getting it, are you? The geth exterminated the atrocities; they're bloody heroes in my book for standing their ground and fighting.

[GodWood]

Kaiser Shepard wrote...
Erhm, you're not getting it, are you? .

Feel free to point out where I'm wrong.

[1136342t54_]

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

GodWood wrote...

Biotic Sage wrote...
It's actually one of the simpler moral judgments in the game.

Indeed.
The geth (that are still floating around today) slaughtered billions of innocent men, women and children and commit wide-scale genocide.
For these atrocities they must be exterminated.

Erhm, you're not getting it, are you? The geth exterminated the atrocities; they're bloody heroes in my book for standing their ground and fighting.

Not necessarily. If we go by the Quarians side of the story the Geth basically killed almost every last man woman and child in the war. By the Geth's perspective Legion seemed to paint the picture that the Quarians attacked at every chance they got not really leaving a chance for dealings until the Quarians were forced to leave.

Put together it seemed that the Quarians weren't willing to sacrifice territory or anything to machines and the Geth were ready to utterly destroy the Quarians to the point where they wouldn't be a threat for centuries.

Both were wrong.

[Collider]

GodWood wrote...

Biotic Sage wrote...
It's actually one of the simpler moral judgments in the game.

Indeed.
The geth (that are still floating around today) slaughtered billions of innocent men, women and children and commit wide-scale genocide.
For these atrocities they must be exterminated.

Agreed. They cannot be allowed continued existence. Especially when they are so succeptible to reaper influence and anti-organic religious fanaticism.

[Someone With Mass]

Kaiser Shepard wrote...
Erhm, you're not getting it, are you? The geth exterminated the atrocities; they're bloody heroes in my book for standing their ground and fighting.

Yes, we know you hate the quarians. Come up with something new, already.

[Kaiser Shepard]

GodWood wrote...

Kaiser Shepard wrote...
Erhm, you're not getting it, are you? .

Feel free to point out where I'm wrong.

If the geth hadn't rebelled and subsequently isolated themselves, the quarians would've eventually used their source of cheap labor as an army against the rest of the galaxy, cue human genocide in 2157.

Modifié par Kaiser Shepard, 06 octobre 2011 - 11:21 .

[1136342t54_]

Now that is just stupid.

[111987]

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

GodWood wrote...

Kaiser Shepard wrote...
Erhm, you're not getting it, are you? .

Feel free to point out where I'm wrong.

If the geth hadn't rebelled and subsequently isolated themselves, the quarians would've eventually used their source of cheap labor as an army against the rest of the galaxy, cue human genocide in 2157.

That is just ridiculous. I don't even think it needs to be explained why this is just horrendous reasoning.

[Fayfel]

There is no proof that geth attacked non-combatants.

[111987]

Amakiir wrote...

There is no proof that geth attacked non-combatants.

99% of all Quarians were wiped out.

[Collider]

Amakiir wrote...

There is no proof that geth attacked non-combatants.

There is, I'm fairly certain.
The amount of quarians left alive after the war meant that 99.9% of quarians died by any reasonable estimate.

[ADLegend21]

the Quarians sent out a message to all Quarian systems and colonies to deactivate your geth permanently. the geth foundout and they turned on their masters for their right to survive. That' show it started and then the Geth were going to wipe out the Quarians but when they fled they stopped and then began cleaning the planet for their return and then went to their own space stations and such. The quarians gave no chance of diplomacy to the AI's, which they should have. there cold have been peaceful coexistence, but now thre's a galax wide ban on creating AI because of how the Quarians spread the news of the Geth attacking them. I support qwib qwib to lead the migrant fleet back to rannoch to make peace with the Geth.

[GodWood]

Amakiir wrote...
There is no proof that geth attacked non-combatants.

Except for the billions of dead non-combatants.

[GodWood]

Kaiser Shepard wrote...
If the geth hadn't rebelled and subsequently isolated themselves, the quarians would've eventually used their source of cheap labor as an army against the rest of the galaxy, cue human genocide in 2157.

I see.
So where am I wrong?