293 réponses à ce sujet

[Ianamus]

1136342t54 wrote...

They were organics and initial experiences with organics led them to believe that most if not all organics were threats to their very existence due to the law against AI.

Are you saying that this justifies killing children? Or committing countless war crimes? Becuase it does not. 

By council law the Geth should have been imprisoned years ago. 

1136342t54 wrote...

If you are correct then the Quarians would be dead already.

No- they wouldnt. The Geth don't have nearly the power to take on the whole galaxy- the Turian fleet alone would easily thwart theirs. The argument in ME2 is whether the migrant fleet has a chance against the Geth- and while debateable it would seem that they do not- but attacking the migrant fleet themselves would lead the council into war against them. 

Your deluded if you think the Geth are powerful enough to stand a chance against the council. The only reason the Heretics had any chance was because an ancient machine god was helping them.

1136342t54 wrote...

False. They have the capability to destroy the Quarians now and even fight off the Council races easily. The thing is they don't since the believe all organic races have the right to self determinate. Also if they were as cold and logical as you would believe Legion wouldn't have trouble deciding whether or not to destroy or brainwash the Geth. 

The Geth do not appreciate the value of life. Period. They were willing to kill children and innocents without any real justification. That means that they do not value life. 

Why do you think that not valueing life means they would try to kill everything in the galaxy? The word sociopathic means somebody who would not go out of their way to save someone, has no moral values, and do not see anothers death as tragic. And it fits the Geth perfectly. It does not mean that they go around randomly killing people. I have no idea where you got that idea. 

And besides, they would gladly sit in their homes doing nothing while the Reapers killed the entire galaxy as long as they were safe, and that shows as little care for organic life as trying to outright kill it all would. 

1136342t54 wrote...

The Geth actually seem to be rebuilding rannoch. Legion can see it as a comparison to honoring the Quarian lives they have taken. It shows that they may even show some regret.

And yet they have been killing anyone who passes the veil and would never let anyone come anywhere near them or contact them at all. Really helpful.

I'm sure the Quarians dying out on their slowly degrading fleet really appreciate that the Homeworld they are not allowed anywhere near looks pretty.

However much the Geth may say they want peace, killing all diplomats sent to them really tells a different story. 


I don't hate the Geth- but I hate the writers just skipping over all of these things. If Legion actually showed regret for them or spoke about how the Geth felt they were justified in doing them but now realise they were wrong then it would be fine- but he says nothing- expecting the Quarians to be ready for peace without acknowledging any of the horrible things the Geth have done.

It's like Bioware expected us to forget the Geth did those things and suddenly love them because of Legion, while maing the Quarians seem like the bad guys for refusing to forgive them. But never once does the game ackknowledge that the Quarians are justified in many ways for not forgiving them. 

Modifié par EJ107, 07 octobre 2011 - 12:48 .

[Kaiser Shepard]

GodWood wrote...

Kaiser Shepard wrote...
In assuming the geth should be exterminated for what they've done.

I'm wrong because of the speculations of one man who attempts to justify the quarian genocide on the basis of some farfetch'd potential future outcome?

That's silly. You could handwave any crime with that.

As opposed to doing the same when eliminating the Rachni Queen or a bunch of Circle Mages yourself?

No way the Council could look past the gloom and doom of one of their lesser races having created true AI, and an entire species of AI creatures at that; conflict pretty much was inevitable, either with the Council doing what had to be done or the fearful/arrogant quarians taking matters into their own hands... claws, whatever.

Modifié par Kaiser Shepard, 07 octobre 2011 - 12:54 .

[1136342t54_]

EJ107 wrote...

Are you saying that this justifies killing children? Or committing countless war crimes? Becuase it does not. 

By council law the Geth should have been imprisoned years ago. 

Don't put words in my mouth when I have never said it was justified. You are lying and I'm tired of saying that both were wrong in the conflict when I've said it over a dozen times in this thread or hell in a single page.

No- they wouldnt. The Geth don't have nearly the power to take on the whole galaxy- the Turian fleet alone would easily thwart theirs. The argument in ME2 is whether the migrant fleet has a chance against the Geth- and while debateable it would seem that they do not- but attacking the migrant fleet themselves would lead the council into war against them. 

Your deluded if you think the Geth are powerful enough to stand a chance against the council. The only reason the Heretics had any chance was because an ancient machine god was helping them.

Fact: There is one Geth fleet spotted that has 5,000-10,000 ships.

Fact: Geth have the production capability to build a structure somewhat similar in scale to a Dyson sphere. (not exactly the same).

Fact: A few dozen cruisers were destroyed in the battle of the Citadel and it is a significant loss.

Fact: Alliance total forces as of the First contact war was 200 ships. If we generously give them a large amount of production capability they should have 1,000 or more ships. Still smaller than a single Geth fleet.

Even if we go by the video in which the Alliance have thousands of ships over Earth I doubt its over 5,000 or so. That would likely be all of there ships they have to spare. The Geth fighting the Council wouldn't be a curb stomp but they could not lose a conventional war.

The Geth do not appreciate the value of life. Period. They were willing to kill children and innocents without any real justification. That means that they do not value life. 

Considering that in many wars on Earth millions of innocents have died mostly due to bombing runs and nukes. Sorry but in a war for survival the Geth and the Quarians likely bombed the **** out of each other. Even precision strikes result in civillian casualties sometimes.  The Geth during the Morning war act like logical machines. Organics outlawed AI making Geth existence against the law. The only way to make sure the Quarians wouldn't be a threat would be to destroy them. Obviously the Geth during the genocide decided that it would be pointless to kill off the Quarians and possibly regret it.

Why do you think that not valueing life means they would try to kill everything in the galaxy?

Incorrect assumption. You claimed that they were cold and logical. If they were truly like that all organics would be a enemy to them. That is not the case.

And besides, they would gladly sit in their homes doing nothing while the Reapers killed the entire galaxy as long as they were safe, and that shows as little care for organic life as trying to outright kill it all would. 

The only reason America actually fought in WWII was due to Japan attacking them. Every nation is selfish most selfless acts are at times due to selfish reasons.

And yet they have been killing anyone who passes the veil and would never let anyone come anywhere near them or contact them at all. Really helpful.

Since their last war they had to fight for the right to exist its not hard to believe that they believe anything organics do is a violent act since Geth's existence is against the law.

I'm sure the Quarians dying out on their slowly degrading fleet really appreciate that the Homeworld they are not allowed anywhere near looks pretty.

Doesn't matter if Geth didn't care they wouldn't do anything at all to the Homeworld. 

It's like Bioware expected us to forget the Geth did those things and suddenly love them because of Legion, while maing the Quarians seem like the bad guys for refusing to forgive them. But never once does the game ackknowledge that the Quarians are justified in many ways for not forgiving them. 

No Bioware wants to create conflict. The problem I have with you is that you justify Quarians killing off all the Geth but do not justify Geth nearly killing all of the Quarians. In fact the proper approach to this is to accuse both groups of being wrong and making them come to the peace table.

[JeffZero]

1136342t54 wrote...
In fact the proper approach to this is to accuse both groups of being wrong and making them come to the peace table.

Yep.

[Ianamus]

1136342t54 wrote...

No Bioware wants to create conflict. The problem I have with you is that you justify Quarians killing off all the Geth but do not justify Geth nearly killing all of the Quarians. In fact the proper approach to this is to accuse both groups of being wrong and making them come to the peace table.

I believe that the Quarians who initially chose to shut down the Geth were wrong- but they died a long time ago. The present-day Quarians do not need apologise for what their ancestors did 300 years ago. It would be like me or you having to apologise for the atrocities humanity has committed in the past, even though they have nothing to do with us. 

But the Geth we see and speak to in game are the same ones who unanimously decided to kill billions of civilians. And I have a problem with that. 

I don't believe that the present-day Quarians need to apologise for anything (unless they attack the Geth in ME3 in which case it's a different story), however they should be willing to forgive the Geth once they have apologised and move on. 

Modifié par EJ107, 07 octobre 2011 - 01:17 .

[Drone223]

JeffZero wrote...

1136342t54 wrote...
In fact the proper approach to this is to accuse both groups of being wrong and making them come to the peace table.

Yep.

 
Yep +2

[1136342t54_]

EJ107 wrote...

I believe that the Quarians who initially chose to shut down the Geth were wrong- but they died a long time ago. The present-day Quarians do not need apologise for what a few of their ancestors did 300 years ago. It would be like me or you having to apologise for the atrocities humanity has committed in the past, even though they have nothing to do with us. 

Many of the Quarians now totally agree what the Quarians did was correct even Tali does. The fact that they approve of that means that they need some sense smacked into them. The Geth know they are wrong and actually want peace. Most of the Quarians seems to be against it.

I don't believe that the present-day Quarians need to apologise for anything (unless they attack the Geth in ME3 in which case it's a different story), however they should forgive the Geth once they have apologised properly. 

They don't need to apologise necessarily in the traditional sense but they do have to work with the Geth. The Geth are open for peaceful negotiations even Legion said so. The Quarians are either heavily split or the majority just simply don't want peace.

[aiDvEoN]

No, the majority have no idea that peace is even a possibility. The geth policy of violent isolationism has allowed the perception of them as being as hostile as.every other AI anyone ever built to become entrenched. And then the heretics threw in with the reapers, and justified that perception further.

Until Legion showed up, nobody has ever had any reason, EVER, including when they first awakened, to view the geth as anything but a threat. Every other AI ever built has turned.hostile, that's why the citadel outlawed it.

[1136342t54_]

aiDvEoN wrote...

No, the majority have no idea that peace is even a possibility. The geth policy of violent isolationism has allowed the perception of them as being as hostile as.every other AI anyone ever built to become entrenched. And then the heretics threw in with the reapers, and justified that perception further.

Until Legion showed up, nobody has ever had any reason, EVER, including when they first awakened, to view the geth as anything but a threat. Every other AI ever built has turned.hostile, that's why the citadel outlawed it.

Considering that there is an actual Admiral and a large enough amount of Quarians that actually believe peace can be option I would disagree. Also you can even show them Legion and they still wouldn't care so it wouldn't matter. Quarians could know that Geth would offer peace but it is unlikely the Quarians would ever want it Tali is the best example.

Also in ME1 the ship that we found that went into the perseus veil was filled with husks. Tali assumed that the Geth killed those people when in fact it was the Heretics since Geth do not possess husk technology. It is also possible there was always a separate group of Geth who was killing any alien diplomats that came through. Plus it is a bit implied that those alien diplomats came soon after the Geth Quarian war and that was during the time the Council sent a fleet to monitor the Perseus Veil. The Geth could easily view any organic ship coming through would have hostile intentions.

Although this is speculation based on a ship attacked by Heretic Geth.

[SkittlesKat96]

Drone223 wrote...

JeffZero wrote...

1136342t54 wrote...
In fact the proper approach to this is to accuse both groups of being wrong and making them come to the peace table.

Yep.

 
Yep +2

Don't say that, otherwise the ME 3 forum EZY-CREW will bust you up and tell you how Geth = evil / mistake / NOT 2 BE NEGOTIATED WITH

Modifié par SkittlesKat96, 07 octobre 2011 - 04:46 .

[JeffZero]

SkittlesKat96 wrote...

Drone223 wrote...

JeffZero wrote...

1136342t54 wrote...
In fact the proper approach to this is to accuse both groups of being wrong and making them come to the peace table.

Yep.

 
Yep +2

Don't say that, otherwise the ME 3 forum EZY-CREW will bust you up and tell you how Geth = evil / mistake

Must stand ground! Must stay strong! Must... must... *trampled*

[DarthSliver]

JeffZero wrote...

SkittlesKat96 wrote...

Drone223 wrote...

JeffZero wrote...

1136342t54 wrote...
In fact the proper approach to this is to accuse both groups of being wrong and making them come to the peace table.

Yep.

 
Yep +2

Don't say that, otherwise the ME 3 forum EZY-CREW will bust you up and tell you how Geth = evil / mistake

Must stand ground! Must stay strong! Must... must... *trampled*

Yep +3

[General User]

1136342t54 wrote...
In fact the proper approach to this is to accuse both groups of being wrong and making them come to the peace table.
[+'d by others]

What would that accomplish?  Setting aside for a moment the idea that accusing someone and/or their deeply held beliefs of being wrong is seldom a productive way to start resolving a conflict.  Without an actual plan to comprehensively resolve the conflict and address the issues at hand sitting down at "the peace table" is just a waste of everyone's time.

Do any of you have such a plan, or even just some general guidelines?  If so, and I missed it, I apologize in advance.

Modifié par General User, 07 octobre 2011 - 12:50 .

[Xilizhra]

Drastic and swift action was needed to safeguard the quarian people.

If the quarians all kill themselves by trying to attack the geth again... well, I'll try to stop them, because I don't want them to die, but I won't join their fight. And I doubt the geth will attack.

[Destroy Raiden_]

I think they want people to see the Quarians as the aggressors and them as the masters keeping the slaves down which to me is ridiculous they made them they have or had the right to destroy them and I still think they have said right because these things aren't human they're machine.

It's like making a super computer that decides its going to lock you out of it and take over the world you made it you bear the shame of said creation but it was still the thing you made no matter how independent your computer is its still yours and if it does wrong you have the obligation to destroy it. If it does right you have the obligation to monitor it and keep others as safe as possible from any harm it may do.

Sure legion goes through his whole why speech about geth vs heretics and I don't feel bad for him they told the heretics to go and he's all trying to figure out what changed? They came into contact with their extreme selves of course there was a change! The Quarians have to make sure no more heretic geth sprout up its their obligation. I really don't care how advance a race of machines are they're still and always will be machines no matter how much in denial they may be it is who they are.

Needless to say I wouldn't mind hearing the whole Quarian side of this I think they did the right thing by trying to put control back onto them so they wouldn't do something stupid like they did to them 300 years ago and what the heretics are still doing to people across the galaxy. If the geth want to practice isolationism then they can but they'll have to move further away so no one wants to bother them which by taking the veil over isn't working sense they still have to blow up a few dumb souls the Quarians still need to monitor them to be sure they only want to live alone peacefully and aren't secretly building an armada to takeover after the reapers are dealt with.


EDIT: I think the question over who will strike first if war happens I'd say it would be the Quarians either one nut job will go kamikaze on a geth ship or the board will rule a call to arms but I think it's still suicide and I know if they decide to go to war then we the players will be dragged right along into it. I would rather be the medical ship treating both sides and helping neither they'll rip each other apart and I'll treat or save whose left then we'll figure out what if any help either side will be against the reapers.

Modifié par Destroy Raiden , 07 octobre 2011 - 01:54 .

[aiDvEoN]

1136342t54 wrote...

Considering that there is an actual Admiral and a large enough amount of Quarians that actually believe peace can be option I would disagree. Also you can even show them Legion and they still wouldn't care so it wouldn't matter. Quarians could know that Geth would offer peace but it is unlikely the Quarians would ever want it Tali is the best example.

Also in ME1 the ship that we found that went into the perseus veil was filled with husks. Tali assumed that the Geth killed those people when in fact it was the Heretics since Geth do not possess husk technology. It is also possible there was always a separate group of Geth who was killing any alien diplomats that came through. Plus it is a bit implied that those alien diplomats came soon after the Geth Quarian war and that was during the time the Council sent a fleet to monitor the Perseus Veil. The Geth could easily view any organic ship coming through would have hostile intentions.

Although this is speculation based on a ship attacked by Heretic Geth.

If you take Legion to the fleet, not even Han'Gerrel discounts the prospect of peace.  His concern begins and ends with the fact that the quarians need their planets back.  We still don't know what Tali's exact response is because your crew all exist in their little boxes until a loyalty crisis.

As for the side trek from ME1 with the ship full of husks, we know now that they were Heretics.  Back in ME1, we didn't know there was a difference.  Why do people keep demanding that the quarians act as though they had knowledge that maybe one or two dozen people in the galaxy have as of the end of ME2?