293 réponses à ce sujet

[Patchwork]

ITA Swimming Ferret.
The quarians self flagellation gets old fast. Just petition the council for a planet already!

The Mourning War seems to have become a story to Joe Blogs quarian, which Tali tells Shepard in ME1. Any evidence of what happened from their side is likely lost or known only to the Admiralty Board.

We're more likely to hear impartial evidence from the geth just because lying doesn't seem to be something they've got the hang of yet.

[Lotion Soronarr]

SandTrout wrote...
While an apparently sound theory, this doesn't actually work for military hardware, because if such a 'kill' signal existed, your enemies would work extensively to find out what it is, and then use it at the most opportune (inopportune, for you) moment.

A better design for a fail safe there would be to have some sort of internal hardware limiter that would reduce the hardware to non-functional after a fixed period. Non-rechargeable batteries seem like the most obvious solution here.

No.
That actually works for military hardware. Just make sure to protect/encrypt the failsafe well enough.
Really, even today we can make encryption protocols that can't be broken in a million years.

[Someone With Mass]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

No.
That actually works for military hardware. Just make sure to protect/encrypt the failsafe well enough.
Really, even today we can make encryption protocols that can't be broken in a million years.

They said that the Titanic was unsinkable too.

Or that the computer hardware would never allow for more than 4 gigabytes of memory.

Modifié par Someone With Mass, 04 octobre 2011 - 11:55 .

[CroGamer002]

Arcian wrote...

That feel when Council AI experts introduced hidden runtime into the geth network, causing them to bypass quarian control and become sentient to rise up against their oppressive creators - all according to the Council's plan to foil the quarian government's scheme to use the geth to stage a pan-galactic coup d'etat.

Why do I think Council would actually let slaughter of billions innocents, instead of just sending Spectres for assassinating those in charge?

It wouldn't have been the first time to do something unethical just to keep power.

[Swimming Ferret]

Ser Bard wrote...

ITA Swimming Ferret.
The quarians self flagellation gets old fast. Just petition the council for a planet already!

The Mourning War seems to have become a story to Joe Blogs quarian, which Tali tells Shepard in ME1. Any evidence of what happened from their side is likely lost or known only to the Admiralty Board.

We're more likely to hear impartial evidence from the geth just because lying doesn't seem to be something they've got the hang of yet.

The vibe I got was that the Quarians would prefer to b*tch and moan about it to every other species, then debate for a few centuries about what to do.

I think it's because the Geth are too logical for that; they feel no reason to lie, since they aren't ashamed/embarrased/guilty of what happened. They understand it, they don't try to hide what occured.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Someone With Mass wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

No.
That actually works for military hardware. Just make sure to protect/encrypt the failsafe well enough.
Really, even today we can make encryption protocols that can't be broken in a million years.

They said that the Titanic was unsinkable too.

Or that the computer hardware would never allow for more than 4 gigabytes of memory.

Except this is ture...And except that you upgrade the encryption and security.

Go ahead and hack into US nukes...I dare you.

[ZenJestr]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Someone With Mass wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

No.
That actually works for military hardware. Just make sure to protect/encrypt the failsafe well enough.
Really, even today we can make encryption protocols that can't be broken in a million years.

They said that the Titanic was unsinkable too.

Or that the computer hardware would never allow for more than 4 gigabytes of memory.

Except this is ture...And except that you upgrade the encryption and security.

Go ahead and hack into US nukes...I dare you.

yea, NOW? of course it's next to impossible...but I'm pretty sure in a universe of omni-tools and gimped Reaper tech it'll be much simpler...(not easy, just simpler)

[CroGamer002]

@Lotion Soronnar
extremely hard =/= impossible


One day, some jackass hacker with too much time on his hand will hack into US nukes just for fun, one day.

[Lotion Soronarr]

ZenJestr wrote...
yea, NOW? of course it's next to impossible...but I'm pretty sure in a universe of omni-tools and gimped Reaper tech it'll be much simpler...(not easy, just simpler)

What? You assuming encrypting tech won't also improve.

I' m telling you that right now we can create encryption that would take a quantum computers hunderds of years to crack. And that's assumig you don't change or update every at all.
If you do it every few years....

Yes, it is possibel to create a encryption that is realisticly impossible to crack.

[DaringMoosejaw]

Fifth Fleet Out wrote...

If our refridgerators became sentient, we would do the same thing.Turn them off.

Stopped reading here. Really? You'd just 'shut off' the discovery of the goddamned century because it wouldn't keep your hot pockets frozen if you had a disagreement with it?

[TobyHasEyes]

DaringMoosejaw wrote...

Fifth Fleet Out wrote...

If our refridgerators became sentient, we would do the same thing.Turn them off.

Stopped reading here. Really? You'd just 'shut off' the discovery of the goddamned century because it wouldn't keep your hot pockets frozen if you had a disagreement with it?

 It does seem like an odd response.. if my fridge suddenly startd speaking to me, and asking me questions, I wouldn't run for the off switch, I'd try and find someone

 Do you reckon a tech expert said 'Have you tried turning it off and on again?'

[Valdrane78]

I am first going to try and broker a peace between the two, but if I cannot do that I will be siding with the Geth. Tali says it herself, the Geth began to ask uncomfortable questions, and the Quarians in fear that the Geth would become unhappy with being slaves, tried to shut them down. The Geth in an act of self defense,attacked. As a result, the Quarians fled their home world and colonies. The Geth did not persue them and stayed behind the veil until Nazara persueded the Heretics to attacks Eden Prime and follow Saren.

It also speaks volumns of the Geth that Legion informs us, that the Geth are acting as caretakers of the Quarian's home world and are cleaning the planet, since they have no use for it.

It seems that the Quarian's acted prematurely and paid the price for their arrogance. If they wont listen to reason, I have no qualms acting against them.

[Damate]

DaringMoosejaw wrote...

Fifth Fleet Out wrote...

If our refridgerators became sentient, we would do the same thing.Turn them off.

Stopped reading here. Really? You'd just 'shut off' the discovery of the goddamned century because it wouldn't keep your hot pockets frozen if you had a disagreement with it?

As much as the above made me knee-jerk lawl: If my 'fridge  became starting asking me if it had a soul, yes, I might be inclined to shriek and yank out the plug. (Or seek psychiatric aid; or yank open the door, looking for the inter-dimensional gateway to Zuul's crib, just sayin') Which I think is relevant to the reaction Quarians had centuries ago: Panic.

Humans as a whole don't tend to manage higher cognitive thinking well in a state of panic -- I don't think it would be far fetched to say the same is true of Quarians. Legion says first the 'creators' ignored them, then they tried to reprogram the geth and then they attacked. To me that indicates some very commonplace responses to abnormal situations: denial, nervousness and then an increasing state of panic/desperation which doesn't correlate well with thinking about the most ethical or 'humane' response. Factor in the fact that the Quarians regarded the geth as machines, as tools (which is what they started off as, so it makes sense and isn't, to me, 'evil' on their part) when added to growing panic regarding a sudden, unexpected shift in the status quo, then it makes sense that the Quarians (as a whole at least) were incapable of viewing the Geth as fellow sentient beings rather than a horrible malfunction in software that would endanger them all. Regrettable, yes -- but also, I believe, understandable in those circumstances.

When faced with the unknown; when faced with radical changes in the status quo, it is not uncommon in our own RL history for radical knee-jerk reactions to trump other more well-thought-out responses: It isn't difficult for me to see the same being the case with Quarians centuries ago. We don't get the specifics of the war from the Quarian pov, but from what we've gotten from Tali, Legion and codex entries, I believe we have enough to infer the gist of what the writers had in mind when creating this story arch.

Neither is it beyond my scope of imagination (and empathy) to see why and how the Quarians became what they are today, with the migrant fleet and - as stated by some of their own people - their increasing lack of cohesive drive towards some collective goal. Which leads to factionalism as different parties seek different ways to remedy their current state and ensure their futures: Hence the different ideas we get from the Admirals. I'm less inclined to blame the 'modern' Quarians for the 'sins of the father' than I am to eagerly await different options for resolution (peaceful or otherwise, though I personally hope for the former) in ME3.

To me the Quarian/Geth issue represents less a matter of villain/victim (with either party filling either role depending on who you ask. perspective is a powerful thing) and more a large-scale example of the dangers of shortsighted decision making, periscope vision, mutual misunderstanding/mistrust... and a glaring lack of communication on both parts (understandable as it may be) trumping all.

At any rate, this is definitely one of the factors I'm most looking forward to playing out in ME3. And if playing it out involves a renegade interrupt towards Admiral Xen (the only Quarian who, thus far, has made me consider violence) then all the better.

[aiDvEoN]

DaringMoosejaw wrote...

Fifth Fleet Out wrote...

If our refridgerators became sentient, we would do the same thing.Turn them off.

Stopped reading here. Really? You'd just 'shut off' the discovery of the goddamned century because it wouldn't keep your hot pockets frozen if you had a disagreement with it?

No, I'd panic because the galactic government that already considers me a second class citizen (non-council race) has declared AI illegal, and that they consider genocide and orbital kinetic strikes to be valid ways of solving problems.

Frankly, even if the Quarians hadn't attempted to pull the plug, the council most likely would have declared the shutdown of an illegal AI network anyway.

[aiDvEoN]

Swimming Ferret wrote...

Meh, main vibe I get from Quarians is "We tried to kill them all and they kick us off our homeplanet. Now we've gone a few centuries without being smart enough to colonize another f*cking planet and just b*tch about it to everyone."

Geth pretty much say GTFO to anyone who tries to swing by XD

Sweet Raptor Jesus I am so sick of reading this garbage.  They've attempted to settle other planets.  The last time they did it, the Council response was essentially "thanks for the new survey data and the discovery, you have thirty days to clear out or we send the Hierarchy Fleet in to remove you".  And between the twin issues of a symbiosis based immunoligy and dextro-amino chirality, suitable worlds are in short supply to begin with.

On a related note, that of how dumb they are for not seeking peace.  Look at it this way, when you've had a campaign of extermination conducted against you far beyond the point of military supression (99.9% of your species killed), are you seriously going to be inclined to think that the responsible party has any interest in peace?  Especially when they've subsequently had no communication at all with the galaxy at large and destroyed every single ship to enter their territory?  Until Legion came on the scene, there was no reason for anyone at all to believe that the Geth were anything other than violent isolationists (at best), or active Reaper servitors (at worst, and most likely in ME1).  And if you bring Legion to the fleet, what's the response?  Zaal'Koris is excited by the prospect, and Han'Gerrel is wary, but even he won't discount peace, he simply points out that the quarians need their planets back one way or the other.  Daro'Xen...lets face it, odds are we're going to have to deal with her one way or the other.

[Asari_Party]

aiDvEoN wrote...

Swimming Ferret wrote...

Meh, main vibe I get from Quarians is "We tried to kill them all and they kick us off our homeplanet. Now we've gone a few centuries without being smart enough to colonize another f*cking planet and just b*tch about it to everyone."

Geth pretty much say GTFO to anyone who tries to swing by XD

Sweet Raptor Jesus I am so sick of reading this garbage.  They've attempted to settle other planets.  The last time they did it, the Council response was essentially "thanks for the new survey data and the discovery, you have thirty days to clear out or we send the Hierarchy Fleet in to remove you".  And between the twin issues of a symbiosis based immunoligy and dextro-amino chirality, suitable worlds are in short supply to begin with.

The codex entry for Citadel Space says less than one percent of the stars (systems) have been explored in the galaxy. But the quarians had to steal a planet in council space. They've only themselves to blame.

[aiDvEoN]

Roxy12 wrote...

The codex entry for Citadel Space says less than one percent of the stars (systems) have been explored in the galaxy. But the quarians had to steal a planet in council space. They've only themselves to blame.

Steal it?  They discovered the blasted thing.

[SnowHeart1]

aiDvEoN wrote...

...Look at it this way, when you've had a campaign of extermination conducted against you far beyond the point of military supression (99.9% of your species killed), are you seriously going to be inclined to think that the responsible party has any interest in peace?...

 
Who tried to commit genocide first? And did that "campaign" continue after the Quarians left, or was it strictly limited to getting them off the "homeworld" and repelling them during future attempts to retake it?

 Especially when they've subsequently had no communication at all with the galaxy at large and destroyed every single ship to enter their territory?

If your only contact with other species -- indeed, if at the very moment you became aware -- involved them trying to kill you, do you think you'd be patient and friendly and try to have a dialogue with everyone who comes trespassing through your backyard, or just defend yourself with overwhelming force?

*shrug* Do the Quarians deserve their fate? Possibly not. I don't think they're evil. They made a horrible mistake, but they're not evil. But it's hard for me to work up any tears for them while the bulk of them are still banging the war drums and playing the violin about what victims they are. Acknowledge that you made a mistake (or even that you may have made a mistake), and then discussions about a middle-ground and peace can begin.

[HellBovine]

SnowHeart1 wrote...

aiDvEoN wrote...

...Look at it this way, when you've had a campaign of extermination conducted against you far beyond the point of military supression (99.9% of your species killed), are you seriously going to be inclined to think that the responsible party has any interest in peace?...

 
Who tried to commit genocide first? And did that "campaign" continue after the Quarians left, or was it strictly limited to getting them off the "homeworld" and repelling them during future attempts to retake it?

 Especially when they've subsequently had no communication at all with the galaxy at large and destroyed every single ship to enter their territory?

If your only contact with other species -- indeed, if at the very moment you became aware -- involved them trying to kill you, do you think you'd be patient and friendly and try to have a dialogue with everyone who comes trespassing through your backyard, or just defend yourself with overwhelming force?

*shrug* Do the Quarians deserve their fate? Possibly not. I don't think they're evil. They made a horrible mistake, but they're not evil. But it's hard for me to work up any tears for them while the bulk of them are still banging the war drums and playing the violin about what victims they are. Acknowledge that you made a mistake (or even that you may have made a mistake), and then discussions about a middle-ground and peace can begin.

A discussion for peace could not and would not happen before Legion showed up... they had no means to contact the geth and no reason to believe the geth would not just take the opportunity to kill some more of them. In most games Legion is never brought to the flotilla so they never even get to hear about the possibility.

The Geth did not just exterminate the Quarians on the homeworld, but on every single planet that they had colonized as well.

They have no options for colonizing a new planet. The one time they tried, on a particularly inhospitable planet at that,  they got threatened with extinction by the council (nice guys). All of the dextro planets are taken by Turians cause they have the council race position, it is doubtful the Council would be kind enough to let the Quarians have one.

Now I hope that there is a peace option in ME3, but I would never sacrifice an organic species with children and clear emotions for a sort of hive-minded machine race. It'd be a tougher decision if all the geth were like Legion, but the rest are just parts of a giant neural network (in no way similar to our own thought processes).

Modifié par HellBovine, 04 octobre 2011 - 04:16 .

[marshalleck]

Ser Bard wrote...

ITA Swimming Ferret.
The quarians self flagellation gets old fast. Just petition the council for a planet already!

Ignorance. They tried that. The Council said no, gave the planet to the Elcor, and then threatened to bomb the quarians who had begun to colonize. The real kick in the nuts? It's a planet the quarians had discovered first, before the Morning War and had since then gone uncolonized and unwanted by any other species.

[CroGamer002]

^Wow.

Geez, it's not like I already hate the Council a lot.
I do hope in ME3 there's gonna be an option to abolish it for good.

[SnowHeart1]

HellBovine wrote...

*snip*

A repetition of what has already been said and you're not answering the questions I posed. Who tried to commit genocide first? If you were in the Geth's position, how would you respond to that? Just smile and say, "Oops, mea culpa?" What would you do if, from the very first moment of your awareness, every other species was trying to kill you? How exactly do you suppose the Quarians, once their effort to exterminate the geth backfired, handled future explorations back into now-Geth controlled space? Based on our dialogues with Tali and the other Quarians, I doubt it was "Mind if we chat?" ; they probably started shooting the second they saw a Geth ship. But for the heretics, the Geth never left the space they occupied since the Morning War. Never tried to expand. Never sought to finish what you're arguing they started (ie the extermination of the Quarians). I mean... what do you expect them to do? All get aboard a giant spaceship and fly off so the Quarians can come back to their homeworld? Oh wait... that's exactly what they're doing.

Look, I get it. I do. But the pro-Quarian groups tend to overlook the grievance politics going on, the crying to the galaxy about what terrible victims they are, without an expectation that they own up to their mistake. You may swallow that, hook line and sinker, but I expect people to own up to their mistakes instead of wallowing about like a petulant teenage bully crying about the kid who fought back.

[Someone With Mass]

Eh, if I saw members of the race that nearly wiped out my people, I wouldn't be on talking terms either.

I don't think anyone would be.