293 réponses à ce sujet

[111987]

SnowHeart1 wrote...

HellBovine wrote...

*snip*

A repetition of what has already been said and you're not answering the questions I posed. Who tried to commit genocide first? If you were in the Geth's position, how would you respond to that? Just smile and say, "Oops, mea culpa?" What would you do if, from the very first moment of your awareness, every other species was trying to kill you? How exactly do you suppose the Quarians, once their effort to exterminate the geth backfired, handled future explorations back into now-Geth controlled space? Based on our dialogues with Tali and the other Quarians, I doubt it was "Mind if we chat?" ; they probably started shooting the second they saw a Geth ship. But for the heretics, the Geth never left the space they occupied since the Morning War. Never tried to expand. Never sought to finish what you're arguing they started (ie the extermination of the Quarians). I mean... what do you expect them to do? All get aboard a giant spaceship and fly off so the Quarians can come back to their homeworld? Oh wait... that's exactly what they're doing.

Look, I get it. I do. But the pro-Quarian groups tend to overlook the grievance politics going on, the crying to the galaxy about what terrible victims they are, without an expectation that they own up to their mistake. You may swallow that, hook line and sinker, but I expect people to own up to their mistakes instead of wallowing about like a petulant teenage bully crying about the kid who fought back.

The Quarians who made that mistake are all dead now. And you can't blame the current Quarians for hating the Geth. How do you think their history was taught to them? In a sense they've been brainwashed into hating the Geth and believing it's all their fault.

If you had to live on crappy ships, sharing a room the size of your bathroom with your entire family, and were hated by everyone in the galaxy, you might be angry and upset too.

[Nashiktal]

Ser Bard wrote...

ITA Swimming Ferret.
The quarians self flagellation gets old fast. Just petition the council for a planet already!

The Mourning War seems to have become a story to Joe Blogs quarian, which Tali tells Shepard in ME1. Any evidence of what happened from their side is likely lost or known only to the Admiralty Board.

We're more likely to hear impartial evidence from the geth just because lying doesn't seem to be something they've got the hang of yet.

They did petition the council for planets. In one case they were bombed for it.

Its not black and white. The quarians and the council races are in a viscious cycle here. The quarians to survive steal resources from planets that don't belong to them, mess up economies wherever they go, and generally are a big nuisance. As a result the council places various sanctions against them, tend to avoid helping them, you get the idea.

Nothing is going to change until the quarians settle down on a planet and actually establish themselves as a "nation."

[DaringMoosejaw]

Fibonacci wrote...

DaringMoosejaw wrote...

Fifth Fleet Out wrote...

If our refridgerators became sentient, we would do the same thing.Turn them off.

Stopped reading here. Really? You'd just 'shut off' the discovery of the goddamned century because it wouldn't keep your hot pockets frozen if you had a disagreement with it?

The geth were not the first AI by far.  As a rule, the AI's before them turned into "skynet" and started wholesale slaughter at first chance.  They have no emotion, no fear, no regreat and no empathy at all.  If life exists they will eventually be in conflict so the best choice is to end life now before it has a chance to recognise the AI needs to be disabled.

It would be closer to saying, you have seen whole cities wiped out because some toaster started thinking.  In fact your uncle was eatten by a blender just last year.  Now your refridgerator is asking if it has a soul.

That's not the scenario he presented. He tried to compare situations when the situations were not alike at all.

[SandTrout]

Someone With Mass wrote...

Eh, if I saw members of the race that nearly wiped out my people, I wouldn't be on talking terms either.

I don't think anyone would be.

Don't take this the wrong way, but that is a surprising sentiment, coming from you.

[BatmanPWNS]

We, humans, would do the same thing if our Computers, laptops, Tv and other junk starting talking to us and questioning us about life. That is the one reason I don't hold this against the Quarians.

[Nerevar-as]

All of this has happened before...

[Nashiktal]

DaringMoosejaw wrote...

Fibonacci wrote...

DaringMoosejaw wrote...

Fifth Fleet Out wrote...

If our refridgerators became sentient, we would do the same thing.Turn them off.

Stopped reading here. Really? You'd just 'shut off' the discovery of the goddamned century because it wouldn't keep your hot pockets frozen if you had a disagreement with it?

The geth were not the first AI by far.  As a rule, the AI's before them turned into "skynet" and started wholesale slaughter at first chance.  They have no emotion, no fear, no regreat and no empathy at all.  If life exists they will eventually be in conflict so the best choice is to end life now before it has a chance to recognise the AI needs to be disabled.

It would be closer to saying, you have seen whole cities wiped out because some toaster started thinking.  In fact your uncle was eatten by a blender just last year.  Now your refridgerator is asking if it has a soul.

That's not the scenario he presented. He tried to compare situations when the situations were not alike at all.

Well turning off my refrigerator isn't the same as killing it. Its just asleep until I turn it back on. Although I do believe the quarians were intent on permanently shutting the geth down.

[SnowHeart1]

111987 wrote...

The Quarians who made that mistake are all dead now. And you can't blame the current Quarians for hating the Geth. How do you think their history was taught to them? In a sense they've been brainwashed into hating the Geth and believing it's all their fault.

If you had to live on crappy ships, sharing a room the size of your bathroom with your entire family, and were hated by everyone in the galaxy, you might be angry and upset too.

I don't blame the living Quarians for trying to kill the Geth. And, if you read back to the first page, I said pretty much exactly what you just did -- all of their knowledge is what has been passed down from the generations and without much hard evidence to support it. What I do blame them for is playing grievance politics and failing to acknowledge their ancestors may have made a terrible mistake. As long as they blame the Geth for their predicament, they are never going to be able to grow as a people or move forward. That's willful ignorance, and I do blame them for that.

Modifié par SnowHeart1, 04 octobre 2011 - 08:08 .

[Someone With Mass]

Even if they believed every word Legion said, it'd be stupid of them to place the fate of their entire race in potential danger based on one geth's words.

Not to mention that I don't think they know as much about the geth as Shepard & Co do.

[Nerevar-as]

SnowHeart1 wrote...

I don't blame the living Quarians for trying to kill the Geth. And, if you read back to the first page, I said pretty much exactly what you just did -- all of their knowledge is what has been passed down from the generations and without much hard evidence to support it. What I do blame them for is playing grievance politics and failing to acknowledge their ancestors may have made a terrible mistake. As long as they blame the Geth for their predicament, they are never going to be able to grow as a people or move forward. That's willful ignorance, and I do blame them for that.

If they had wanted to move forward they would have settled on a planet as soon as possible instead of wandering around, ruining their immune system in the process. But excluding Qwib Qwib it seems no quarian we meet can look towards the future.

It would be a cruel irony that they could take their planet back and still have to spend the next 500 years on their suits, but part of me thinks they would deserve it.

[DoNotIngest]

Quarians tweaked their workbots a bit too well and they achieved sentience. Wanting to head that, and a gruesome, rebellious war off, they tried shutting them down, triggering the war sooner rather than later.

Doesn't explain why the Geth had to slaughter at least 99.9% of Quarians (Assuming Quarians, with all of their settled worlds and thousands of years of spaceflight & advanced medical, had a little more population than humans; A very safe assumption), that's 1 in 1000 surviving. Whereas it was probably more like one in ten to fifteen that were combatants.


Really, if the Quarians can conquer their, well, deserved hatred of the Geth, it'll be best if there's peace, no matter who's more to blame. The Geth go off and evolve on their own, the Quarians get their homeworld back, and somewhere along the line a leviathan fleet of super advanced machine gods gets blasted.

Modifié par DoNotIngest, 04 octobre 2011 - 08:20 .

[TobyHasEyes]

aiDvEoN wrote...

DaringMoosejaw wrote...

Fifth Fleet Out wrote...

If our refridgerators became sentient, we would do the same thing.Turn them off.

Stopped reading here. Really? You'd just 'shut off' the discovery of the goddamned century because it wouldn't keep your hot pockets frozen if you had a disagreement with it?

No, I'd panic because the galactic government that already considers me a second class citizen (non-council race) has declared AI illegal, and that they consider genocide and orbital kinetic strikes to be valid ways of solving problems.

Frankly, even if the Quarians hadn't attempted to pull the plug, the council most likely would have declared the shutdown of an illegal AI network anyway.

 Of course genocide and orbital kinetic strikes are reserved for those who actively try to bring down Citadel Space, so I don't think they would in any way assume they were about to be wiped out by Council fleets for this illegal act

 It would mean confessing that you had accidentally brought about sentient life, and dealing with that revelation with the kind of responsibility it should ideally entail

 I am not saying that the Quarian response isn't believable, but it isn't true to suggest they couldn't have responded better

[TobyHasEyes]

DoNotIngest wrote...

Quarians tweaked their workbots a bit too well and they achieved sentience. Wanting to head that, and a gruesome, rebellious war off, they tried shutting them down, triggering the war sooner rather than later.

Doesn't explain why the Geth had to slaughter at least 99.9% of Quarians (Assuming Quarians, with all of their settled worlds and thousands of years of spaceflight & advanced medical, had a little more population than humans; A very safe assumption), that's 1 in 1000 surviving. Whereas it was probably more like one in ten to fifteen that were combatants.


Really, if the Quarians can conquer their, well, deserved hatred of the Geth, it'll be best if there's peace, no matter who's more to blame. The Geth go off and evolve on their own, the Quarians get their homeworld back, and somewhere along the line a leviathan fleet of super advanced machine gods gets blasted.

 The obvious explanation for the Geth action was that on just becoming sentient, with all that entails, your first experience is of you and your people being wiped out by some entities who see you as essentially worthless

 It is not a justification which wholly absolves the Geth of their actions, but their do have naivety and a lack of awareness of the situation on their side. And when considering non-military Quarian casualties, horrific obviously but why do we see the Geth as being aware of the difference? I daresay it wasn't only military staff who had shut them down, so why would their consensus be to recognise such differences?

 Once again, we reach the stage where we do not know enough to say much concrete, only to repeat assumptions at each other

[HellBovine]

SnowHeart1 wrote...

snip

The quarians aren't to blame for trying to wipe out the geth, it was the only solution they had available. At the time they hadn't even realized that the geth had achieved true sentience.The quarians had no other choice than to try to shut the Geth down. The geth were interwoven within all aspects of their society: military, production, probably domestic. In all previous examples, AI was found to inevitably rebel against its creators. They could either choose to try and shut off the develping geth before they advanced further, or wait and hope that nothing bad would happen even though it would be illegal and they would be placing their lives upon a slim chance the geth wouldn't rebel which all previous history told them was false.

Who's to say that the outcome would not have been the same or worse if they hadn't tried to shut the geth down?

Either way, the geth are not responsible for the predicament. The blame lies on the ancestors who created the geth in the first place, the same one's who are long dead. You cannot blame an entire species for the actions of one corporation, If you can then all humans are responsible for everything Cerberus does. I'm pretty sure the majority of quarians realize it was a mistake in the first place to give machines the feature that allowed them to form a neural network.

The geth themselves are a secondary problem, the only reason the current generation cares is because they are the reason they are stuck on a floating scrap yard. They were unable to immediately settle a new planet because of the council, which had also refused to help save them from extermination and would probably not provide any aid to them afterwards. They were in fear that the geth would show up at any moment to finish them off. Once they got over those initial fears and tried to settle a third rate world, the council continued with its completely fair policies and threatened to bomb an endangered species.

So please tell me, how would the quarians saying: "Turning off the geth was a bad idea" really do anything to help their position.

Modifié par HellBovine, 04 octobre 2011 - 08:37 .

[Nerevar-as]

HellBovine wrote...


The geth themselves are a secondary problem, the only reason the current generation cares is because they are the reason they are stuck on a floating scrap yard. They were unable to immediately settle a new planet because of the council, which had also refused to help save them from extermination and would probably not provide any aid to them afterwards. They were in fear that the geth would show up at any moment to finish them off. Once they got over those initial fears and tried to settle a third rate world, the council continued with its completely fair policies and threatened to bomb an endangered species.

I think a dev had said years ago it was actually a choice their leaders made, because they wanted the planet back and if they settled the younger generations and mass population wouldn´t want to conquer homeplanet back. The Ascension book also implied the same. I doubt the Council can do much against that if they choose a not reclaimed world. They had plenty of time to go to some of the worlds human are colonizing as of the game present date.

[HellBovine]

Nerevar-as wrote...

I think a dev had said years ago it was actually a choice their leaders made, because they wanted the planet back and if they settled the younger generations and mass population wouldn´t want to conquer homeplanet back. The Ascension book also implied the same. I doubt the Council can do much against that if they choose a not reclaimed world. They had plenty of time to go to some of the worlds human are colonizing as of the game present date.

Here's what happens when quarians try to colonize an unoccupied planet.

Modifié par HellBovine, 04 octobre 2011 - 09:07 .

[SnowHeart1]

HellBovine wrote...

SnowHeart1 wrote...

snip

The quarians aren't to blame for trying to wipe out the geth, it was the only solution they had available.

False.

At the time they hadn't even realized that the geth had achieved true sentience.

But they had a good clue.

The quarians had no other choice than to try to shut the Geth down.

False false false. They had plenty of choices; they happened to just choose one that blew up in their face because, as you implicitly acknowledge, they didn't know what they were dealing with. Instead of pausing to ask questions, they panicked, made yet another bad decision in a long string of bad decisions, and the consequences blew up in their collective face.

The geth were interwoven within all aspects of their society: military, production, probably domestic.

Correct. And there you have your answer as to why 99.9% of the Quarians were wiped out when they tried to Genocide their creation.

Either way, the geth are not responsible for the predicament. The blame lies on the ancestors who created the geth in the first place, the same one's who are long dead. You cannot blame an entire species for the actions of one corporation, If you can then all humans are responsible for everything Cerberus does. I'm pretty sure the majority of quarians realize it was a mistake in the first place to give machines the feature that allowed them to form a neural network.

Already addressed this above.

The geth themselves are a secondary problem, the only reason the current generation cares is because they are the reason they are stuck on a floating scrap yard. They were unable to immediately settle a new planet because of the council, which had also refused to help save them from extermination and would probably not provide any aid to them afterwards. They were in fear that the geth would show up at any moment to finish them off. Once they got over those initial fears and tried to settle a third rate world, the council continued with its completely fair policies and threatened to bomb an endangered species.

You keep citing a solitary example of galactic injustice and, to the extent that was an injustice, you're right. No argument there. The Council sucks. So... what are the quarians going to do about it? We saw the divisions they're dealing with in Tali's loyalty mission. It's a very real and difficult question. But, at the moment, they are paralyzed by the past.

So please tell me, how would the quarians saying: "Turning off the geth was a bad idea" really do anything to help their position.

I think the better question to be asking here is how could it hurt? Answer me that, and I'll answer your question.

Modifié par SnowHeart1, 04 octobre 2011 - 09:37 .

[Swimming Ferret]

If the Council threatened to bomb their asses, why don't they just colonize a planet in non-Council space? They have enough ships to kick off any slaver attacks.

*Take note I'm actually not trying to be a b*tch.

[SnowHeart1]

^^^^

*giggles* This made me laugh. I'm not sure why.

Modifié par SnowHeart1, 04 octobre 2011 - 09:48 .

[Someone With Mass]

The geth pretty much killed the quarians' religion too, by destroying the databanks which contained information about their ancestors, who the quarians worshiped because of their wisdom.

[Swimming Ferret]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Council space is a variable thing.

So their territory influxes? Hm...Would other species allow them to colonize in their own system? Or would that also fall under Council jurisdiction?



Well, relgion isn't nessary to survival, you know.

Modifié par Swimming Ferret, 04 octobre 2011 - 09:51 .

[Nerevar-as]

HellBovine wrote...

Nerevar-as wrote...

I think a dev had said years ago it was actually a choice their leaders made, because they wanted the planet back and if they settled the younger generations and mass population wouldn´t want to conquer homeplanet back. The Ascension book also implied the same. I doubt the Council can do much against that if they choose a not reclaimed world. They had plenty of time to go to some of the worlds human are colonizing as of the game present date.

Here's what happens when quarians try to colonize an unoccupied planet.

Besides the rather poor planet choice, the bombardment part makes me wish I can establish a Council of my own at the end of ME3 and do quite a few changes in galactic politics. With some luck the Reapers will balance military power across the species and make it possible.