293 réponses à ce sujet

[GreenDragon37]

Mesina2 wrote...

^Wow.

Geez, it's not like I already hate the Council a lot.
I do hope in ME3 there's gonna be an option to abolish it for good.

Yeah. The more I learn about the Council's past, the more I want to overthrow them.

[Medhia Nox]

To be replaced by what?

What fantasy government that always makes the best choices would you replace them with - because it won't mirror any real world government I assure you.

[NPH11]

The problem with the Council is that not every voice gets representation and those in power end up using the power just to serve their own means, at the cost of those who don't have a voice or are unpopular.

Just like every political system ever devised in history. You could boot out the Council and start anew, but nothing would really change.

[1136342t54_]

GreenDragon37 wrote...

Mesina2 wrote...

^Wow.

Geez, it's not like I already hate the Council a lot.
I do hope in ME3 there's gonna be an option to abolish it for good.

Yeah. The more I learn about the Council's past, the more I want to overthrow them.

The thing is that is applicable with most real world nations. Hell the Systems Alliance seem to have some dark secrets that if known by the rest of the Galaxy would mean interstellar war. The Council is not perfect but it is effective enough to keep peace for centuries at a time. The only time wars actually really begun were due to OCP problems.

[1136342t54_]

NPH11 wrote...

The problem with the Council is that not every voice gets representation and those in power end up using the power just to serve their own means, at the cost of those who don't have a voice or are unpopular.

Just like every political system ever devised in history. You could boot out the Council and start anew, but nothing would really change.

The thin is the Council is relatively effective at what it does but it needs to be modified and changed.

[NPH11]

1136342t54 wrote...

NPH11 wrote...

The problem with the Council is that not every voice gets representation and those in power end up using the power just to serve their own means, at the cost of those who don't have a voice or are unpopular.

Just like every political system ever devised in history. You could boot out the Council and start anew, but nothing would really change.

The thin is the Council is relatively effective at what it does but it needs to be modified and changed.

I guess, but what changes can you really make? You could give every race a representative, but all that would do is lead to more political bickering. It operates on a democratic base as well, so the "old guard" would still win the vote every time.

[suprhomre]

I think the key to all the questions still lie in the Geth side. Think about it, they are machine with storing memories. Recording stretching back hundreds of years. Maybe, some of it will give us the answer. I hope so. Since all Geth are the same. Our best source is Legion. Just ask him to play up some of the memory vids.

[1136342t54_]

NPH11 wrote...
I guess, but what changes can you really make? You could give every race a representative, but all that would do is lead to more political bickering. It operates on a democratic base as well, so the "old guard" would still win the vote every time.

Note that these are just a few changes off the top of my head and I can come up with more detailed ones later.

1. Modify Council Ambassador qualifications.

Personally I believe that making races wait decades to get an embassy is too much of an insult and allows for too much conflict between races. While conflict is good since it forces them to rely on the Council for the real decisions it still breeds too much hatred and jealousy. Humanity is a good example of it. Allow races who fit specific qualifications of a stable interstellar empire.

Stable and thriving economy.

Large and sustainable population.

Technological state is on the level of the majority of Citadel races

Military is capable of defending the species etc.

The species is also diplomoatically capable of  dealing with other races peacefully.

Those are just a few things but likely I would add many more. Nearly all races who have been in the Galactic community for at least a decade should be offered a embassy. This is the main thing I really don't like about the Council practices. There are some benefits to it but eventually you'd get more instances like the Batarians and Human squabble.

[CroGamer002]

1136342t54 wrote...

GreenDragon37 wrote...

Mesina2 wrote...

^Wow.

Geez, it's not like I already hate the Council a lot.
I do hope in ME3 there's gonna be an option to abolish it for good.

Yeah. The more I learn about the Council's past, the more I want to overthrow them.

The thing is that is applicable with most real world nations. Hell the Systems Alliance seem to have some dark secrets that if known by the rest of the Galaxy would mean interstellar war. The Council is not perfect but it is effective enough to keep peace for centuries at a time. The only time wars actually really begun were due to OCP problems.

Oh I so want to shut down Alliance as well.




Alliance. Council. Cerberus. ALL, must die!

[Warlocomotf]

Valdrane78 wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...

Nerevar-as wrote...

You assume they would have struck first.

No, I don't. All I have done is acknowledge that they could have and what the consequences would be.

Just because they could have doesn't mean that they would have, that is one hell of an assumption to make, and with 0 facts to back it up either.  We have no idea what they would have done if the Quarians had granted them freedom instead of attacking them.  According to Tali, the Quarians didn't even bother to think of taking any other action that turning them off or destroying them.  However, we will never know because the Quarians acted out of fear instead of taking a step back and looking at it logicaly.  Somehow, I think it would have all turned out very differently if they had.

Disabling the Geth was absolutely the only reasonable thing to do at the time. They had created a work force capable of heavy labor and used in military capacity- these robots created were created without an actual form of morals or ethical programming. After all, being robots they would simply do as they were told. When they gained consciousness, you can argue between wether you should take away that consciousness or not- but even if you choose not to take it away; it would be immensely irresponsible and shortsighted to not take a step back and say "Hey, how about we provide these robots with some ethical and moral rules to follow" (ie: laws of robotics).

Also, there are very simple facts to back up that they would have fought in some capacity. Why? Because it's a logical conclusion. Fact: Organics fear (esspecially unrestrained) synthetics. Fact: Organics fear what they do not know. Fact: AI development was banned- their existence was illegal and wether it was the Quarians or the council, they would be attacked.

Geth knew that there was a very high probability that they would be attacked. The question for them was not "if", it was when and how- and perhaps even if they should or shouldn't strike first (even if they knew when they'd be attacked). Not striking first might provoke sympathy of some races and reduce the number of alien races willing to get involved.

Their hostile nature has proven itself in the 300 years following the morning war. The 300 years during which they attacked every single ship that entered the veil- non-combat vessels included.

[Phaedon]

The geth killed more than 95% of Rannoch's population. Call the Quarians bad or good, but there is no excuse for slaughtering civilians like that.

Will the geth redeem themselves? We'll see how it plays out in ME3.

[1136342t54_]

Phaedon wrote...

The geth killed more than 95% of Rannoch's population. Call the Quarians bad or good, but there is no excuse for slaughtering civilians like that.

Will the geth redeem themselves? We'll see how it plays out in ME3.

This but it is a bit understandable. If the Geth were really pissed off that a species attempted to exterminate them I wouldn't be surprised they responded in kind. I'm not saying its right but the Geth aren't as logical as they would like to be. They get pissed like any other race and they likely wanted to retaliate against the Quarians by conducting their own extermination.

It isn't right at all but look at it from there point of view and it is understandable.

[CroGamer002]

^Geth weren't pissed of nor did Quarians attempted to exterminate Geth.

[Saaziel]

Actually i don't think it was an emotional response from the Geth.

They probably didn't understand that Quarian can't upload their self (Program) to other "platforms" once they die ; In fact they probably didn't even understand the concept of Death . If anything they probably understood the Quarians to be best represented by their Dextro-DNA , since its analogous to the Geth program.

Modifié par Saaziel, 06 octobre 2011 - 07:42 .

[1136342t54_]

Mesina2 wrote...

^Geth weren't pissed of nor did Quarians attempted to exterminate Geth.

Deactivating all Geth is essentially exterminating them or exterminating there intelligence. Geth responded in kind. Even when you side with Tali regarding Legion looking at her Omni-Tool Legion shows a small amount of emotion when he says "The creators will pay for what they done to my people."

[TobyHasEyes]

Phaedon wrote...

The geth killed more than 95% of Rannoch's population. Call the Quarians bad or good, but there is no excuse for slaughtering civilians like that.

Will the geth redeem themselves? We'll see how it plays out in ME3.

 Were the Geth in possession of all the facts? Bare in mind that they had only just reached sentience, or conscious thought, and their first true experience of Quarians was them shutting them down. At that stage the sentient decision making processes may have not even been able to see the Quarians as anything more than a threat, and as I have said earlier.. the difference between military and non-military probably won't make sense to a newly sentient race that was initally attacked with guns (it seems unlikely that the first attempts to shut down peaceful Geth would have been with guns, you'd imagine omni-tools or the like)

 I don't wish to present the Geth as shown to be exempt from all responsibility for their actions, but I think considering their new found sentience, and the strange fractured state if the collective mind, there are a lot of qualifying factors which mean we should be wary of handling judgement

[1136342t54_]

Actually what Legion said was "Once Old macines are defeated, however, creators will answer for actions against our people."

[TobyHasEyes]

Saphra Deden wrote...

1136342t54 wrote...

This but it is a bit understandable.

If it is understandable for the geth to commit genocide on a massive scale then it is surely understandable for anyone else to do it.

 For any other just about sentient, frequently non-sentient and inexperienced / naive species.. which is realistically none, as they are fairly unique qualities to the Geth

[1136342t54_]

Saphra Deden wrote...

1136342t54 wrote...

This but it is a bit understandable.

If it is understandable for the geth to commit genocide on a massive scale then it is surely understandable for anyone else to do it.

It is in retaliation against their own extermination. Also I love how you still attempt to just pick anything you want out of my posts and just respond to one point. 

Do you even know the difference between understanding and condoning?

[Phaedon]

1136342t54 wrote...

Phaedon wrote...

The geth killed more than 95% of Rannoch's population. Call the Quarians bad or good, but there is no excuse for slaughtering civilians like that.

Will the geth redeem themselves? We'll see how it plays out in ME3.

This but it is a bit understandable. If the Geth were really pissed off that a species attempted to exterminate them I wouldn't be surprised they responded in kind. I'm not saying its right but the Geth aren't as logical as they would like to be. They get pissed like any other race and they likely wanted to retaliate against the Quarians by conducting their own extermination.

It isn't right at all but look at it from there point of view and it is understandable.

I have yet to see an organic able to have so much rage as to kill billions of people under the influence of emotions, let alone the geth who were only sentient to a primitve level. 

I am not saying that the geth still are the bad guys. But they were the bad guys, or at least some of the bad guys, 3 centuries ago.

[1136342t54_]

Somewhat (although not entirely) similar to killing the Reapers. The Reapers want to exteriminate all life in the Galaxy. In response we have to destroy every single Reaper there is to stop them. Extermination a sapient species is never really good but when your options at times seem to be your own extinction or theirs. You know what to choose.

The Geth were just developing AI and they saw as the Quarians deactivation as an attack. They responded the only way they knew would stop them. In there view it would look like every Quarian is attempting to kill them or at least a large majority of them when in fact most probably are just deactivating them because the Government said so.

[1136342t54_]

Phaedon wrote...

1136342t54 wrote...

Phaedon wrote...

The geth killed more than 95% of Rannoch's population. Call the Quarians bad or good, but there is no excuse for slaughtering civilians like that.

Will the geth redeem themselves? We'll see how it plays out in ME3.

This but it is a bit understandable. If the Geth were really pissed off that a species attempted to exterminate them I wouldn't be surprised they responded in kind. I'm not saying its right but the Geth aren't as logical as they would like to be. They get pissed like any other race and they likely wanted to retaliate against the Quarians by conducting their own extermination.

It isn't right at all but look at it from there point of view and it is understandable.

I have yet to see an organic able to have so much rage as to kill billions of people under the influence of emotions, let alone the geth who were only sentient to a primitve level. 

I am not saying that the geth still are the bad guys. But they were the bad guys, or at least some of the bad guys, 3 centuries ago.

When it seems that those billions are attempting to kill you and your entire race sometimes you are faced with two choices. In this case though it isn't that black and white but to Geth who while are highly intelligent likely have the maturity of a young child or essentially feeling fear on a wide scale. When the orders were out to deactivate the Geth it was likely seen as an attack by every single Quarian. The Geth responded in kind that started a war in which WMDs were possibly used. It is entirely possible the Quarians killed a large amount of there own population using nukes or Anti matter weapons to stop the Geth.