152 réponses à ce sujet

[FoxHound109]

 I know, I know! This has probably been discussed to death, but Shepard's death in Mass Effect 2 bothers me immensely. It's not that he shouldn't have died, and it's not even how ridiculously bad his old team mates react to his return (they're almost all along the lines of: "Oh. It's you. Hi."). What really bothers me is something else: Shepard himself. He dies, is brought back to life after two years, and he hasn't even remotely shown any psychological change. You would think death could alter a person's psychological state immensely, but Shepard almost never mentions it, never needs any sort of therapy, and never seems to be moved by what happened to him. 

Anyone else bothered by this? I feel like it's the one thing that completely and totally shatters the suspension of disbelief for me in Mass Effect 2. Don't get me wrong, the game has its plot holes, but THIS is what bothers me more than anything.

[Fifth Fleet Out]

i guess that is "up to the player". I liked that people asked you qustions this time around and came to you. I hope we see more of this. No has asked shepard how he is doing and the responsibilties on their shoulders etc.

[AlexXIV]

Yes, bothers me. Dead people should stay dead. Bothered me in JE already. The whole issue about death or near death experiences is too heavy for a game to touch it. It can only look stupid, and it did.

[FoxHound109]

AlexXIV wrote...

Yes, bothers me. Dead people should stay dead. Bothered me in JE already. The whole issue about death or near death experiences is too heavy for a game to touch it. It can only look stupid, and it did.

Deus Ex: Human Revolution did it right. Even with a difference of only a few minutes from the first level to when he gets all the implants, Jensen shows a noticeable shift in his psyche. It's really well done. I kind of feel like the writers in the ME team failed here despite having a great chance to flew their pens into deeper character development territory. =|

Modifié par FoxHound109, 03 octobre 2011 - 03:28 .

[Cutlass Jack]

Jensen had a personality shift? He seemed pretty 'dead' in personality before and after to me. I must have missed it.

And any personality shift for Shepard is up to the player, not the game. You get to decide how bothered you are by it. Maybe your Paragon Shep became far more edgy and violent afterwards. Your call. Mine learned who his real friends were and it changed his outlook quite a bit.

I thought for the most part, your old squad's reactions were on target. The crack in Tali's voice as she struggles to contain herself. Garrus and Wrex knowing you'd never die so easy and their joy in seeing you again. I did have a few issues with the Virmire Survivor's overreaction. And with Anderson and Hackett's undereaction.

Modifié par Cutlass Jack, 03 octobre 2011 - 03:35 .

[AlexXIV]

The whole point of the game is to stay alive. If I just think of the last fight in ME1 where shepard comes out alive from the reaper wreckage. Killing people in RPGs and bringing them back has too much of a Jump'n'Run character for me. Aww ... died, good thing I have 2 more lives. It's really silly and I tend to ignore it as much as possible.

[charredrex]

Honestly, It really boils down to the player. I've got several playthroughs where I've actually played it VERY differently than I did in the first game. What I ended up doing was starting off more Paragon (I tend to play it that way) in responses, but going slightly more Renegade as I went in my responses as it all weighed in on me. Especially after meeting any of the former crew mates who disapprove of my working with Cerberus and want nothing to do with you.

It all comes down to how you as a player want to role play it out really and while I think it could have been touched on more, I think letting the player decide how they want to ultimately deal with it is a great way to do it.

[FoxHound109]

Cutlass Jack wrote...

Jensen had a personality shift? He seemed pretty 'dead' in personality before and after to me. I must have missed it.

He didn't feel quite as cold to me before the implants. Afterward he felt more withdrawn, and yes, "dead" in personality. I think it fits.

And any personality shift for Shepard is up to the player, not the game. You get to decide how bothered you are by it. Maybe your Paragon Shep became far more edgy and violent afterwards. Your call. Mine learned who his real friends were and it changed his outlook quite a bit.

See, this bothers me, because no matter what choices I made it never felt any different than when I played the first ME. I just don't see any change whatsoever in Shepard. Unless I did something radical like switch from paragon to full renegade, I don't see it as being well done. It bothers me because I would figure that his last moments alive would be dramatic and intense and that waking up two years later would have a huge psychological impact on him. I would figure he would at least think of life differently, or be more determined, etc. He's the exact same Shepard before and after death and it makes his death feel like a really bad "let's let new players in" mechanic. =|

Modifié par FoxHound109, 03 octobre 2011 - 03:37 .

[Kaiser Shepard]

FoxHound109 wrote...

It's not that he shouldn't have died

Well, it's that as as well. Surely BioWare could've come up with a better reason to railroad Shepard into working with Cerberus.

[Cutlass Jack]

FoxHound109 wrote...

See, this bothers me, because no matter what choices I made it never felt any different than when I played the first ME. I just don't see any change whatsoever in Shepard. Unless I did something radical like switch from paragon to full renegade, I don't see it as being well done. It bothers me because I would figure that his last moments alive would be dramatic and intense and that waking up two years later would have a huge psychological impact on him. I would figure he would at least think of life differently, or be more determined, etc. He's the exact same Shepard before and after death and it makes his death feel like a really bad "let's let new players in" mechanic. =|

The thing you're missing is that ME is an RPG, and Deus Ex is not really. You don't really get control of Jensen's personality. Your Shepard can be 100% different from my shepard, so they can't go forcing these things on someone. Your Shep might become cold and distant, Jensen style. Mine might have learned to appreciate life more and be more warm and friendly to people. People react different ways so it needs to be in the hands of the player. He's only the exact same Shepard if you want him to be.

Besides, Shepard has a job to do and can't waste too much time moping about it publicly. It should be assumed that any issues he needed to work out he did in the privacy of his own cabin. And if you play Shadow Broker you get a chance to do exactly that with Liara. I loved the much needed opportunity to vent about what bothered me.

Modifié par Cutlass Jack, 03 octobre 2011 - 03:47 .

[Athayniel]

Is your argument is Shepard should have some change from *knowing* (s)he has died as opposed to *being dead*? Because (s)he didn't experience anything between asphyxiating after the Normandy is destroyed and 'waking up' at Lazarus Station. That's different. Of course if you ascribe to a belief in some sort of afterlife and you believe Shepard was pulled from it Buffy-style during the process of being resurrected then that's one thing. Also if Shepard wakes up and is perhaps stuck in bed or physically incapacitated for some period of time, that might have had an effect. But Shepard comes back as at least as much a badass as before. It's not a stretch to think that (s)he would just run with it at that point, especially with the station under attack as it was, and save the introspection for later, then when later comes (s)he finds nothing has really changed significantly beyond shiny scars which may or may not go away. How can you process the psychological impact of an event that isn't directly experienced and doesn't leave you feeling particularly different?

To my mind Shepard would be far more upset at the treatment (s)he receives, not at anything to do with the resurrection specifically. Friends which were so loyal to him/her only subjective weeks ago now calling him/her a traitor. That would have a profound effect.

[eternalnightmare13]

 It did bother me how they handled it.  I don't buy ''well um...errr...it's up to the player''.  C'mon, this a major event or should be a major event.  They wouldn't have to ''force'' the player into anything when dealing with it, although the certainly 'forced' me to see my character die and work for Cerebus...

However, they could have a scene with Anderson, or Liara or Tali or Garrus or even Kelly the supposed ship counciler - where it's brought up and you are given options on how to respond.  Much like you had options about the God conversation with Ash in ME1, and had options in conversation with Liara about the SM and etc if you had her up at the cabin after the SM.  Those allowed flexibilty and gave the player options.  A conversation about Shepard's death could be written in the same style.  It wouldn't have to be heavy handed and brooding between each mission because that'd get depressing as hell, but to shrug it off with ''I got better'' and the borderline boredom of the npcs in the game to Shepard's return is weak.

I like the game(s) but found Shepard's death and the handling it of it to be lame.  But I'm not a fan of Mac Walters writing so maybe it's just me...

[SpiffySquee]

All depends on how you look at it. After all, as far as Shep is concerned he fell unconscious and just woke up 2 years later. I wonder, if there is no "follow the light" or talk with some mystical being or what not, would it really change anyone?

Let me ask a question in return. We know Shep deals with near death all the time. If he was hurt and woke up in a hospital and they told him he almost died and been out for a while would it really change him that much? Because from Shepard's point of view, that's all that happened. He fell asleep and woke up 2 years later. Sure, it would be a little jarring, but I don't think it would be as personality shaking as many people make it out to be.

[Cutlass Jack]

Athayniel wrote...

To my mind Shepard would be far more upset at the treatment (s)he receives, not at anything to do with the resurrection specifically. Friends which were so loyal to him/her only subjective weeks ago now calling him/her a traitor. That would have a profound effect.

That's exactly what had the most effect on me. Their reactions drew me much closer to the non-human members of my team who still trusted and believed in me. And much further away from my human friends who didn't give me the benefit of the doubt.

[AlexXIV]

Considering Shep's the first who ever came back from the dead the reaction of all people is rather odd. As if it is nothing new. That's because it doesn't work. If you did it properly the game would be all about it, and not about the Collectors. Hey we found a way to cheat death! Anyone interested? No? Ok ...

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

Shepard's death was terribly handled. The "It's a RPG, not the games fault Shepard has no reaction" is a load rubbish. Bioware has had no problem having Shepard have a moment of weakness before (locker scene), so why they couldn't have him or her show some emotions again is beyond me.

If you argue that it is because they do not wish to take away the player's control of Shepard, then they should just have the ability to show some emotion over it be a dialog option that be avoided. Instead they just completely ignored the idea of getting killed, brougt back to life 2 years after when everyone has moved on. Deciding it is better to make lame monty python references instead.

[MegaBadExample]

Shepard has no emotions. He just bangs.

[Arkitekt]

Here we go. Ahaha!

BTW, I've come to believe that the OP is mostly right. Shep should have had the opportunity to express himself (in all the manners the players wanted him to, of course) after being ressurected, much in the same way (but probably with "more content") that we experienced after Eden Prime's mission (where we could put shep being emotional and fragile or just ****y and undazzled).

[Siansonea]

Shepard's death in ME2 "broke my immersion" (to borrow a hackneyed phrase from every whiner who ever lived) more than anything. I mean, did BioWare think that we would just ignore the scientific and emotional implications of the event? Yes, they did, apparently. They wanted Shepard to have a new skill tree, and to be able to change class! And to have a two-year time jump. Could have done the same thing with a coma, but nooooooo...

[BatmanPWNS]

You know what they should have done?

They should have either send Shepard into a coma or Ceberus should have made Shep fake his/her death and the plot could have carried on from there. But no..... they had to get all complicated.

Modifié par BatmanPWNS, 03 octobre 2011 - 04:42 .

[Athayniel]

AlexXIV wrote...

Considering Shep's the first who ever came back from the dead the reaction of all people is rather odd. As if it is nothing new. That's because it doesn't work. If you did it properly the game would be all about it, and not about the Collectors. Hey we found a way to cheat death! Anyone interested? No? Ok ...

I think in that case it's more that they don't believe Shepard died. The Council and the Systems Alliance intel guys want Shepard to explain where (s)he's been and what (s)he's been doing the last two years. Of the original Normandy crew, only Liara ever sees Shepard's body. She's the only one who ever truly experiences Shepard's death as a real event.

When TIM leaks that Shepard is working for Cerberus he never says for how long or gives any indications as to how it came about. I'm pretty sure "We brought Shepard back from the dead recently, isn't that just great?" wasn't part of his info leak strategy.

[111987]

Well I think adding 'therapy' sessions to the game wouldn't have made it any more enjoyable...

The way Shepard describes it, it just felt like a really long sleep; he goes from remembering the destruction of the Normandy to waking up. People don't change when they fall asleep.

[TheBlackBaron]

Oh look, it's this thread again.

[Chewin]

TheBlackBaron wrote...

Oh look, it's this thread again.

Oh look, it's this comment again.

jk.